Micro$oft the Good

[acushla]

Bill Gates was credited today with developing software called 'The Child Exploitation Tracking System' which was instrumental in a four-country pornography sting specializing in 'on-demand- video streaming’ of child abuse, announced Wednesday by U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.


The project began in 2003 with an email sent to Bill Gates by Paul Gillespie, a Toronto police officer who heads Toronto's 17-member child exploitation tracking unit. After Gillespie's e-mail, Microsoft Canada pumped $4.5 million Cdn into creating the software…as well as programs teaching police how to use it.

"He's (Gillespie) truly been a leader in protecting the safety of children online and convincing government, law enforcement and the private sector that we all need to work together to tackle this important problem," Gates said in a statement.

There is something reassuring in knowing that some of the money that we loudly proclaim as being unfair ‘profiting’ is being put to use in such noble causes.:)

[BALTY]

True that --true that!

[jkrzok]

The Alex Jones listener in me wonders what other uses such tracking technology can be used for,,, ie music/movie downloaders... political discussion sites...

It sounds like powerful software. How can it be abused? You know it will be.

[acushla]

The Alex Jones listener in me wonders what other uses such tracking technology can be used for,,, ie music/movie downloaders... political discussion sites...

It sounds like powerful software. How can it be abused? You know it will be.

You know what jkrzok...I couldn't care less what else it was able to track. If I had to refrain from all those activities you mention in order to have the software do what it is intended to do...then so be it. Some things are worth sacrificing.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

The Alex Jones listener in me wonders what other uses such tracking technology can be used for,,, ie music/movie downloaders... political discussion sites...

It sounds like powerful software. How can it be abused? You know it will be.

They'll track you down and use your brain to power their enormous servers mouhahaha :evil:

[Protocol]

They'll track you down and use your brain to power their enormous servers mouhahaha :evil:
I don't really think that would happen. Well..... Not unless there was a forum member here from the Brain Police. :silly:

[matty28carter]

I don't really think that would happen. Well..... Not unless there was a forum member here from the Brain Police. :silly:

your nicked son!:bandit:

[jkrzok]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

[jkrzok]

You know what jkrzok...I couldn't care less what else it was able to track. If I had to refrain from all those activities you mention in order to have the software do what it is intended to do...then so be it. Some things are worth sacrificing.

So you're willing to surrender your right to political discussion?

Frankly I don't know what that software was designed to do. I do know that I live in a nation whose chief executive believes he has the right to break the law and spy on his people illegally. I do know that the federal government "monitors" the peace and civil liberties groups I'm active in. They've actally made a point of letting me know they know who I am and what we're doing. Chilling.

Do you really belive that this Microsoft technology is safe in government hands?

I have knives at home. Designed to do no more than cut off a slice of bread or perhaps dice a tomato. But when I take that knife a plunge it into someone's chest...

[acushla]

Frankly I don't know what that software was designed to do. I do know that I live in a nation whose chief executive believes he has the right to break the law and spy on his people illegally. I do know that the federal government "monitors" the peace and civil liberties groups I'm active in. They've actally made a point of letting me know they know who I am and what we're doing. Chilling.

Do you really belive that this Microsoft technology is safe in government hands?

I have knives at home. Designed to do no more than cut off a slice of bread or perhaps dice a tomato. But when I take that knife a plunge it into someone's chest...You needn’t lecture me about belonging to organizations that are monitored by a slew of Government Agency’s. For two years I was an active member in SDS and one of the things I learnt from that experience is that there are indeed persons with their own agendas who join to provide cover for their real subversive activities. It is a lesson I carry throughout life and when I hear that the Government monitors certain telephone calls from outside the USA to suspected Al Queda cells within the USA…I for one applaud their diligence.

You quote: ‘"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

As I get older the more convinced I am that the majority of left wing intellectuals miss the simple truth that we do not live in a world of ‘correct’ sounding slogans isolated from the reality of the world…and that slogans often would preclude us from any action based on the apparent ‘political incorrectness’ of it. I should mention that in the same country you talk about we have another quote, ‘Innocent until proven guilty.’ With arguments emerging from the President’s camp that not only are wiretaps of the nature we are discussing legal…they have been employed by past President’s. So let us not ‘Rush to Judgment’. Let us not also forget that we are at war. Rules change.

When the Atomic Bomb was invented many decried it’s invention citing all the evil that could be unleashed on the world…and yet others pointed out how all that energy could be harnessed for good. We do not ban cars because a certain percentage of them kill people…yet this is exactly the position of those not willing to accept any new technology that could have a negative impact. The truth is everything is a double edged sword…it is only the timid who are afraid to use it on the basis that something could go wrong.

I want to redirect your attention to an earlier thread which, ultimately, followed this theme to a ‘end game’ conclusion. A wild scenario I admit…but one where all who are presented with it will discover something profound about themselves. Quickly…in one hour a Nuclear Bomb is going to be detonated somewhere within a one mile radius of your home…the only way you can determine it’s location is through an email…the only way you can determine the sender of that email is if you get the name from an ISP. It is against the law for the ISP to give you that information.

So…do we follow the law…or do we do the sensible thing?

In my opinion there are too many times when we choose ‘the law’ over the ‘sensible’.

[rorythedog]

Your world will kill us all!

And seriously, I'd rather die young and free than old and enslaved. (not that I am young anymore).

On your Atomic Bomb analogy - you support the Iranian desire to join the Nuclear age then?

Thought not.

*EDiT* - BTW, in 3 years of surfing I have NEVER accidentally stumbled upon child pornography. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it.

[acushla]

Your world will kill us all!



On your Atomic Bomb analogy - you support the Iranian desire to join the Nuclear age then?

Thought not.How you arrive at this from what I was writing is beyond me.

If I had it my way their program would now be set back at least 20 years.

What I do support is my life...and anybody who threatens it would be well advised that I know and acknowledge no rules when it comes to defending it.

Are we clear now?

Thought so.

[rorythedog]

How you arrive at this from what I was writing is beyond me.

If I had it my way their program would now be set back at least 20 years.

What I do support is my life...and anybody who threatens it would be well advised that I know and acknowledge no rules when it comes to defending it.

Are we clear now?

Thought so.

We are not clear. Who threatened your life?

[acushla]

Y

*EDiT* - BTW, in 3 years of surfing I have NEVER accidentally stumbled upon child pornography. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it.So what exactly are you implying? You've never seen child pornography therefore it may not exist? You think it does but...

You've never seen child pornography therefore how big a problem could it be?

You've never seen child pornography so why should you care?

Which one is it? Or perhaps you had another point?

[acushla]

We are not clear. Who threatened your life?I'm not saying anybody threatened my life...I'm simply saying how I would respond to such a threat.

Actually...truth be told, I was involved in a serious life threatening fight in Barbados. It is amazing what one learns about oneself in such a situation.

[rorythedog]

So what exactly are you implying? You've never seen child pornography therefore it doesn't exist?

You've never seen child pornography therefore how big a problem could it be?

You've never seen child pornography so why should you care?

Which one is it? Or perhaps you had another point?

I do realize we're out of step here but indulge me, what exactly is your problem? Your standards seem incredibly skew-whiff from here.

By no means do I intend to belittle any child suffering, but in the same diatribe you extol the virtues of atomic power, in all it's forms. That's an incredibly arrogant and simplistic way you have of looking at things, don't you think?

[rorythedog]

I'm not saying anybody threatened my life...I'm simply saying how I would respond to such a threat.

Actually...truth be told, I was involved in a serious life threatening fight in Barbados. It is amazing what one learns about oneself in such a situation.

Which is precisely why your thread about pacifism was daft. Of course everyone has a threshold. If not, they're dead. Most folks aren't that stupid. I take that as a given.

[acushla]

I do realize we're out of step here but indulge me, what exactly is your problem? Your standards seem incredibly skew-whiff from here.

By no means do I intend to belittle any child suffering, but in the same diatribe you extol the virtues of atomic power, in all it's forms. That's an incredibly arrogant and simplistic way you have of looking at things, don't you think?I don't believe you are reading ALL that I have written.

To recap...what I indicated is that the discovery of Nuclear fusion has two very profound consequences...one being that it can be deployed as terrible evil inflicting death and destruction on a scale never known before...or (and here's the important part)...it can be used to power cities in a environmentally clean manner. I certainly did not mean to imply that using Nuclear weapons was a virtue...but I will state that if push came to shove...us or them...

[rorythedog]

I don't believe you are reading ALL that I have written.

To recap...what I indicated is that the discovery of Nuclear fusion has two very profound consequences...one being that it can be deployed as terrible evil inflicting death and destruction on a scale never known before...or (and here's the important part)...it can be used to power cities in a environmentally clean manner. I certainly did not mean to imply that using Nuclear weapons was a virtue...but I will state that if push came to shove...us or them...

So we can bury all the waste at the bottom of your garden then? Clean? You're having a laugh.

*EDiT* - I read EVERYTHING you write.

[acushla]

Which is precisely why your thread about pacifism was daft. Of course everyone has a threshold. If not, they're dead. Most folks aren't that stupid. I take that as a given.If you thought for one moment that my inquiry into the 'Pacifism' thread in any way indicated that I was a Pacifist...then it is I who needs to return to that thread and pinpoint exactly where I stated that.

I'm now very curious...is there anybody else who read that thread and thought I was a Pacifist?

For the record...I never have been nor will I ever be.

[acushla]

So we can bury all the waste at the bottom of your garden then? Clean? You're having a laugh.

*EDiT* - I read EVERYTHING you write.Well, clean, of course is relative.

Clean compared to the next closet thing.

[rorythedog]

Well, clean, of course is relative.

Clean compared to the next closet thing.

The next "closet" thing would be your imagination. The next closest things might be wave power, wind power, solar power, clean coal or turning off the monitor when you eventually see your bed. Nah, why bother, let's go for the nuclear option.

[acushla]

The next "closet" thing would be your imagination. The next closest things might be wave power, wind power, solar power, clean coal or turning off the monitor when you eventually see your bed. Nah, why bother, let's go for the nuclear option.Excellent points...and let's hope that sometime in the near future we will be able to harness these in such a way that they can replace the best we have (for the scale) available to us today.

[rorythedog]

Next Up Folks!!! Guantanamo Bay!!! Tickets available at the box office. :laugh:

[madjo]

If you thought for one moment that my inquiry into the 'Pacifism' thread in any way indicated that I was a Pacifist...then it is I who needs to return to that thread and pinpoint exactly where I stated that.

I'm now very curious...is there anybody else who read that thread and thought I was a Pacifist?

For the record...I never have been nor will I ever be.
No, you clearly stated that you were not a pacifist.. but you did state that a true pacifist would not fight back whatever the circumstances.. and that was what I thought as incorrect. (and what Rory called "daft")
Everyone has a button, and when that button is pushed, pacifist or not, he/she will fight back. If that person doesn't fight back, even when that button is pushed, that person is bloody stupid...


back on topic.. I agree that it was good that MS helped those police officers in their fight against child abuse. but I shudder at the thought of such software used in other contexts.

What did MLK say again? "Democracy and freedom for all"

[acushla]

Everyone has a button, and when that button is pushed, pacifist or not, he/she will fight back. If that person doesn't fight back, even when that button is pushed, that person is bloody stupid...

I KNOW you're NOT calling Mahatma Gandhi...stupid.

Or are you?:shocked:

[madjo]

I KNOW you're NOT calling Mahatma Gandhi...stupid.

Or are you?:shocked:
I am sure that even he had a button that could be pushed... or that he expressed his grievances in a different way. with 'Fighting back' I did not mean literally fighting... I should use different terms :(


I actually should know better than to discuss politics... opting out here...

[acushla]

I actually should know better than to discuss politics... opting out here...Why would you opt out? Aren't you enjoying the exchange of ideas which, hopefully, lead to a deeper understanding of concepts...not to mention yourself.

Opting out is easy...but with no rewards. Staying in is growth.

In case you have doubts...I enjoy your contributions to these threads...you may not always be right, like me, (but then again...besides Roj...who is?;) ) but you always seem to have a unique perspective that challenges one to think.

Thinking is good.

I'm going to GOOGLE the Gandi question...when I have more time. I was under the impression that Pacifism always was about abscence of physical violence...period. However, since I have already learned that my definition of Pacifism was not the only one, there is nothing to preclude that I'm about to learn there are other aspects to Pacifism that I don't know.

That's growth.

[madjo]

Why would you opt out? Aren't you enjoying the exchange of ideas which, hopefully, lead to a deeper understanding of concepts...not to mention yourself.
Because I tend to have completely opposite views of what others think, and it can equate to hitting your head against a brick wall... many people are already set in their views, and no amount of arguing/persuasion can alter that..

you know, your definition of pacifism might be better than mine... I don't know, that is where we can get lost in translation... I'm Dutch, so English is not my native tongue (though it is close). And I'm doubting whether I actually meant 'pacifism'.

And given the fact that I don't like confrontations, and like to avoid them as best as I can... I tend to remove myself from discussions that might cause those confrontations. And we all know that discussing politics can cause confrontations (it has happened here before). My views aren't the same as yours. I can't clearly express my views, because I don't know the words belonging to them, and my dictionary isn't really helpful there. Heck, even in Dutch I find myself in trouble, because I'm lost for words.

Let's just say that I prefer common sense and peaceful collaboration more than the current climate of those war-mongering idiots we have in politics all over the world at the moment.
Instead of thinking for themselves, and sticking to their beliefs, all political parties sway all over the map, just to please "the general public" (which in turn don't exist).
What happened to colleaguality, respect for one and another, peaceful co-existence?
I don't like the world as it is today. Makes me afraid of the future.

Political parties hopping on the bandwagon of scaring their public with 'possible threats of terroristic attacks". Sure there are terrorists in the world, and there is indeed a threat from them... but the chance of getting hit by a car is greater than actually getting blown up. At least in The Netherlands it is.
Right now we have a commercial running where they say that there are people among us that helps lowering the terrorist threat... but what do they mean "lowering", how about maintaining the low level of threats?
There hasn't been any attack in NL, and most found briefcases at trainstations are just briefcases, forgotten by some business man, containing only papers. Again, scaring the public to get something done.

Invasions of privacy, a similar topic. Why would I want to give up my privacy, just to stop some stupid small organization that uses it for their bad ways. There has always been those types of abuse, only now do they come to the surface, because the web gives them room to express their 'opinions' and views.
I do not condone their ways, but I do accept freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech means that you can listen to a man screaming at the top of his lungs the stuff that you have opposed to at the top of your lungs. I know this is a double-edged sword, and can hurt both ways... but it is the very beginning of our constitution. The moment that opinion violates other laws, then you can arrest that man doing that.


Sorry for this long post, it was something I had to get of my chest, and I could continue for a long long time. There are a lot of stuff I don't like in our current climate, and I have a feeling that some sort of revolution is imminent.

[Willow of Oz]

Sigh. And you were opting out Madjo? That was a most worthy post.:carrot:

I'd add something myself but I should be at work in 10 min...

[acushla]

Sigh. And you were opting out Madjo? That was a most worthy post.:carrot:

Ditto.

Please, Madjo...choose to stay in...you have a very powerful message and I believe you would be doing yourself and others a grave disservice not to share it.

I'll tell you something...in all the time I've been a 'member' it never once crossed my mind that you spoke anything except English. So you can't use that excuse anymore!!!;) :)

Kudos.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Microsoft is only 'evil' in the sense it likes to hold a monopoly position. What big company wouldnt want that? Microsoft has given us a lot of software, granted that maybe in a competitive situation quality could have been better. But lets not forget that thanks to microsoft we now have what one might call 'standards'. Just imagine 10 equally competitive operating systems. How could that possibly make life any easier for game developers, network developers, etc? Bill Gates also donates a lot of money to third world countries last time i checked. Who knows, maybe the world is better off this way...of course linux people would not agree but just look at how many *nix distros exist. That's just not funny anymore. How is anyone going to know which is easier or better to use? Yup, and thanks to microsoft, pc gaming has taken a successful course and i guess that makes me happy :)

[madjo]

Microsoft is only 'evil' in the sense it likes to hold a monopoly position. What big company wouldnt want that? Microsoft has given us a lot of software, granted that maybe in a competitive situation quality could have been better. But lets not forget that thanks to microsoft we now have what one might call 'standards'. Just imagine 10 equally competitive operating systems. How could that possibly make life any easier for game developers, network developers, etc? Bill Gates also donates a lot of money to third world countries last time i checked. Who knows, maybe the world is better off this way...of course linux people would not agree but just look at how many *nix distros exist. That's just not funny anymore. How is anyone going to know which is easier or better to use? Yup, and thanks to microsoft, pc gaming has taken a successful course and i guess that makes me happy :)
Well, indeed as a Linux user, I do not agree with you here.
I'm a big supporter of open source, and open formats. Microsoft formats are as closed as the lid of a coffin. Sure, if you give them a whole sack of money, you are granted the right to glance at it, and then use it to make games with it, or do some other stuff with it. But woe on those who make a similar product. If it can't buy you, it will spread lies about you, more commonly known as FUD. Or even worse, it will sue you. (And Steve Ballmer will threaten to f-ing kill you)

Sure, every big company wants to be number one in the field, but MS' business practices haven't been exemplarly.
Oh and of course I applaud the Gates Foundation, and their charitative works. But that does not mean that I agree with whatever MS does.

The only time I use Microsoft software is when I'm forced to use it at work. At home, you will not see much MS software on my computer anymore. And I don't miss any of it.

The many distro's of Linux, sure for a newbie can be a jungle, but with the correct guidance and some good sources (www.distrowatch.com for instance), you can find the correct distro for you. Under the bonnet, all distro's are the same, the biggest difference is in the extra's (same with cars, you have so many different cars, but in essence all are 4 wheels with a motor (the linux core), a steering wheel (the gui), and some pedals (the programs you use))

[madjo]

I'll tell you something...in all the time I've been a 'member' it never once crossed my mind that you spoke anything except English. So you can't use that excuse anymore!!!;) :) that does not necessarily mean that I know all English words, or that I do not stumble or misuse certain words :P

[Willow of Oz]

The only time I use Microsoft software is when I'm forced to use it at work. At home, you will not see much MS software on my computer anymore. And I don't miss any of it.

Just to clarify - you mean you can't think of any MS software you use at home?


The many distro's of Linux, sure for a newbie can be a jungle, but with the correct guidance and some good sources (www.distrowatch.com (http://www.distrowatch.com) for instance), you can find the correct distro for you. Under the bonnet, all distro's are the same, the biggest difference is in the extra's (same with cars, you have so many different cars, but in essence all are 4 wheels with a motor (the linux core), a steering wheel (the gui), and some pedals (the programs you use))
There was a humourous article on the Onion some years ago remarking that the number of linux distros had actually exceeded the number of users.
No comments on the KDE vs Gnome vs unification debacle?
The fact that some things have redhat packages, some things have their own method of 'setups', as well as dependency management?
Driver issues (I don't believe you can just say "that's company X's fault for not supporting *nix)?
The fact that for grandma and grandpa, using Windows is a challenge - asking them to navigate a 'jungle' and research which distro is right for them is not something that's likely to happen?

And of course there's the distinction between MS the company, Windows the OS (and their team), Windows Applications (and their team), MS Hardware, MS games, MS Research and the B&M Gates Foundation. And Steve. And Bill. And Scoble and co.

[madjo]

Just to clarify - you mean you can't think of any MS software you use at home?
no I meant, there is not a single piece of MS software on my home computer that I use. (there is still a partition that holds MS Windows, but I haven't entered that one in about a year, and it is scheduled for deletion)


There was a humourous article on the Onion some years ago remarking that the number of linux distros had actually exceeded the number of users.
No comments on the KDE vs Gnome vs unification debacle?
Choice is good. You like KDE, use it. You like Gnome, use it. Why should I decide which is best for you?
Matter of fact, most applications run on both GUIs... I run amaroK on Gnome, and I run Gxine on KDE.

The fact that some things have redhat packages, some things have their own method of 'setups', as well as dependency management?
In Debian-type distro's you can relatively easily install RPM packages (via the 'alien' program). Besides even Redhat and the likes are getting unified packaging structures.
Oh and btw, I have 1 single window, in which I can choose which software I want to install, click "apply" and BAM! it is on my system, no hard work needed, at all.

Driver issues (I don't believe you can just say "that's company X's fault for not supporting *nix)?
Yes I can. It is easier to develop for *nix than it is for Windows... but for Windows the companies get more money, and that is where the main crux is.

The fact that for grandma and grandpa, using Windows is a challenge - asking them to navigate a 'jungle' and research which distro is right for them is not something that's likely to happen?
OK, have you figured out which Vista version is good for you? And now how about your grandparents?
Come on... 7 different versions of one freaking OS from 1 development house?
At least with Linux, you have many different houses to 'blame' it on.
Each distribution has something it does good.. and has something it could do better. RedHat is better in server-support, Suse is better for corporations, Debian is for the power user, Gentoo is for the DIY-persons, etc.

With Windows, you get 1 overall packages, that does everything.. and many crippled versions (think XP Home vs XP Pro, try setting up a home network with XP Home, without resorting to hacks)

At least with Linux, you can get all of the stuff done... but on one distro it is easier, than on the other.

But your talking to the wrong person... I haven't been happy with Windows, ever since Win95... the only reason I didn't switch until last year, was because I wasn't ready for Linux.

[Willow of Oz]

But your talking to the wrong person... I haven't been happy with Windows, ever since Win95... the only reason I didn't switch until last year, was because I wasn't ready for Linux.

No-one was happy with Win95 :silly:
And arguably many are not ready for Linux.
7 Windows is a lot, though even grandparents should be able to winnow down the numbers, since only 4 are for Homes, the others are for Businesses. And with names like Starter, Basic, Premium and Ultimate, it's fairly clear it's a ranking system that boils down a lot to budget.

Shrug. But like I said, there's the OS and there are all the other things. I use few MS apps myself, but I do find Windows to be alright and I admit a fondness for Visual Studio as an IDE. Since it's been awhile since I last gave a Linux distro a bash I should probably revisit one anyway. Which reminds me, I need a central store to access data and the Windows client of openafs didn't support files > 2gig. Lame. But that's another issue.

[acushla]

that does not necessarily mean that I know all English words, or that I do not stumble or misuse certain words :PYeah...unlike me who as person English it perfectly talk.:rolleyes:

Stop beating yourself up! Congratulate yourself on all you do well instead of complaining about that which you perceive as 'shortcomings'.

Then again...perhaps you are an artist...which would explain everything.;)

You'll be receiving my bill in the mail.:)

[acushla]

At least with Linux, you have many different houses to 'blame' it on.
Each distribution has something it does good.. and has something it could do better. RedHat is better in server-support, Suse is better for corporations, Debian is for the power user, Gentoo is for the DIY-persons, etc.

I can hear the pounding of keys as Roj purposely and franticly bangs out HIS thoughts...should be soon now.:silly: :laugh:

[madjo]

I can hear the pounding of keys as Roj purposely and franticly bangs out HIS thoughts...should be soon now.:silly: :laugh:
I'd welcome his thoughts, but I might not agree with him :)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

OpenOffice still sucks compared to MS Office. But, Madjo, you are without doubt a latex user are you not? :)

[WHAT?]

Not to change the subject, but what do you think about the French riots?

The younger GEN thinks they deserve a job. Which would be nice. But at what expense? See I bring this up as a matter of comparison (sort-of) to this subject.
I'm just thinking of how it has been mentioned here about Big bad MS or not so bad MS. Monopoly MS. etc.
American philosophy differs in a lot of ways. Even subdevided further amoungst each other here, but we all know that. However, the French made a law backed (or pushed into place) by the union making it too difficult to fire someone from their workplace no matter what!
But in doing so I feel creates a communist type of condition where as you don't need to push very hard at work. You can coast if you will! Stagnating the output of the production of the whole country.

Sure it's nice to have job security. I want that!!! But is it good overall? Look at the unemployment rate there for the 25 year old and younger. It's bad. Why would I hire you if I could get stuck with you if you are not a good worker?
Where is it in life that says you are born into this world guaranteed a good job?

And Madjo; I am NOT saying you believe this way or that way.

But what am saying .... Everybody's different ways (collectively) is a good thing here in Quinnland!! If nothing else it makes for interasting reading!;)

Should MS be broken up based of the size and hold that it seems to have on the market?
Or for the fact that it doesn't always play right, or because it pushes out crap on us at times? hahaha!

Well one thing it is, is a good employer (for now). No need to go on strike for wages or anything.

In the States, Big unions are dwindling. Is that a good thing? Bad? My Ideology says good, but for me personally it may be bad. I'm not in one by the way.
I never understood our unions here in the States, when they demand so much when they seem to have a lot for their workers already. They seem to strangle the very people who hired them. On the other hand, initially, I see the propose of having them around. But now that they are having less and less power, It kind of scares me.


As for MS having what appears to be a Monopoly.... Well monopolies are a whole-nother:ponder: subject.

[rorythedog]

Slightly at a tangent, but I see the next version of the Halo franchise will be a Vista exclusive. XP will not be supported. Others are thinking of going the same way. :depressed

[WHAT?]

Slightly at a tangent, but I see the next version of the Halo franchise will be a Vista exclusive. XP will not be supported. Others are thinking of going the same way. :depressed

Is VISTA going to be "all That!!" or something? Wow, to make a cut off like that doesn't seem right somehow. I guess if you don't like it don't buy their products in the future right? I'm referring to Halo and the like. Somehow that doesn't (or won't) apply here though.
Well maybe we count on the mighty PC too much. I have friends who couldn't care less about PCs, Microsoft, Linux, Unix, OS10, Dell, IBM, Cisco, or Computeruniverse 2000 (whatever)!
JUST we NERDS CARE!
MS likes to follow Gillette's razor and blade strategy: sell the consumer a great appliance or gadget and keep them buying ...

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Slightly at a tangent, but I see the next version of the Halo franchise will be a Vista exclusive. XP will not be supported. Others are thinking of going the same way. :depressed

Vista may in fact be faster because the whole GUI will be graphically accelerated. The Directx code has been rewritten as well. I expect many improvements. But i am in no way thinking of buying such an expensive OS. Not until i get a proper job anyways heh heh

[madjo]

OpenOffice still sucks compared to MS Office. But, Madjo, you are without doubt a latex user are you not? :)
actually I am learning it (at my own very slow pace)... for now, I use ascii text.. does all that I need ;)
actually I do not do much Word processing at home (though on a rare occasion, both OOo and Abiword seem to fill the gap quite nicely for me) ..

at work I'm again forced to use MSWord, and MSExcel.
(I can tell you MSWord is a b*tch if you have to use it to draw flowcharts... d*mn cheap employers... ;) Visio was too expensive... but even Dia (http://dia-installer.sourceforge.net/), an open source charting tool, isn't an option for them... bl**dy gimps)

Vista may in fact be faster because the whole GUI will be graphically accelerated. The Directx code has been rewritten as well. I expect many improvements. But i am in no way thinking of buying such an expensive OS. Not until i get a proper job anyways heh heh
but do you like the "Trusted Computer" stuff in it? The DRM and such utter crap?

[madjo]

Should MS be broken up based of the size and hold that it seems to have on the market?
Or for the fact that it doesn't always play right, or because it pushes out crap on us at times? hahaha!
MS should play by the same rules as any other corporation in any market sector. Of course they say "Well, people are allowed to install their own choice of software." And it is their product "windows" and "windows media player", so they are allowed to do whatever they want.. but they have a history of scaring businesses out of the market.. of buying the people they don't like (and then dropping their products)... of price fixing... of udnercutting competition... of, well, monopolistic behaviour.
And here in the EU, that is a very painful and delicate issue.

In the Netherlands we have a watchdog called the NMa, whose job it is to watch corporations in the Netherlands (most commonly the telecom-market) to see that they do not overstep the boundaries, that it will not look like cartels or even monopolies.
And boy do they not mess around, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
(a KPN initiative "church telephone" was free once, now it costs money, because it would undercut competition... what competition?)
And here I digress again :(
Point is, they do not mess around (much). MS is lucky that it didn't originate in NL... It might have had a very bad time here.

It is really a pain in my eye to see so much abuse of power in this world... and somehow we can't seem to be able to fight it... power corrupts as they say... :(

[acushla]

...what do you think about the French riots?
...the French made a law backed (or pushed into place) by the union making it too difficult to fire someone from their workplace no matter what!
But in doing so I feel creates a communist type of condition where as you don't need to push very hard at work. You can coast if you will! Stagnating the output of the production of the whole country.

Sure it's nice to have job security. I want that!!! But is it good overall? Look at the unemployment rate there for the 25 year old and younger. It's bad. Why would I hire you if I could get stuck with you if you are not a good worker?
Ah...so THAT explains why the French government is about to pass a law making it legal for anyone to crack the DRM on iTunes.

Will keep all those 25 and younger unemployed masses busy.

Good plan.:ponder:

[acushla]

MS likes to follow Gillette's razor and blade strategy: sell the consumer a great appliance or gadget and keep them buying ...I think it's referred to as 'staying in business'...or 'business growth'.

Hey, speaking of Gillette...let me tell you...advancement is good news. The difference between the 3 bladed Mach 3 (Stereo CD) and the new 5 bladed (battery powered) Fusion (SACD)...well...it's like 'close' and 'close'...but the 2nd close is a lot more expensive, but you'll be on the cutting edge (pun intended) not to mention the envy of everyone you know.

Progress is good.

Progress is good.

You will repeat after me...

Progress is good.

[Willow of Oz]

MS should play by the same rules as any other corporation in any market sector. Of course they say "Well, people are allowed to install their own choice of software." And it is their product "windows" and "windows media player", so they are allowed to do whatever they want.. but they have a history of scaring businesses out of the market.. of buying the people they don't like (and then dropping their products)... of price fixing... of udnercutting competition... of, well, monopolistic behaviour.
And here in the EU, that is a very painful and delicate issue.

In the USA too, at least in theory (I know, I know). If you're a monopoly, that's not a problem. If you abuse your monopolistic powers, that is. Hey, Bell was broken up, for good or for bad.

[rorythedog]

I think it's referred to as 'staying in business'...or 'business growth'.

Hey, speaking of Gillette...let me tell you...advancement is good news. The difference between the 3 bladed Mach 3 (Stereo CD) and the new 5 bladed (battery powered) Fusion (SACD)...well...it's like 'close' and 'close'...but the 2nd close is a lot more expensive, but you'll be on the cutting edge (pun intended) not to mention the envy of everyone you know.

Progress is good.

Progress is good.

You will repeat after me...

Progress is good.

Progress might be good but it ain't as good as an open razor. They've been around a while.

[acushla]

Progress might be good but it ain't as good as an open razor. They've been around a while.Actually...that was my point entirely.

'Close' and 'close' was the clue.;) :)

[jkrzok]

Slightly OT...

If your razor has five blades, it's not a razor, it's a weed-whacker. With the new Gillette Fusion razor, the first blade lifts the stubble; the second severs the hair follicle; the third slices your skin; the fourth scrapes bone marrow; and the fifth was used by O.J. Simpson to kill his wife, and he wants it back. - Bill Maher

[ace2701]

In the USA too, at least in theory (I know, I know). If you're a monopoly, that's not a problem. If you abuse your monopolistic powers, that is. Hey, Bell was broken up, for good or for bad.

Check the latest news. Ma Bell is doing a phoenix thingy. It's re-organizing itself into a one company monopoly.

[acushla]

Slightly OT...

If your razor has five blades, it's not a razor, it's a weed-whacker. With the new Gillette Fusion razor, the first blade lifts the stubble; the second severs the hair follicle; the third slices your skin; the fourth scrapes bone marrow; and the fifth was used by O.J. Simpson to kill his wife, and he wants it back. - Bill MaherMy sister gave me a copy of Bill Maher's latest (first?) book entitled 'New Rules' as a Birthday gift.

Good reading...especially for those who are afflicted with ADD.

[madjo]

Check the latest news. Ma Bell is doing a phoenix thingy. It's re-organizing itself into a one company monopoly.
ah yes.. the purchase of SBC was the last aquisition, was it not?

[BALTY]

You guys are very punny, and informative.. very good!:knocked-o

Yes, acushla Good business is good business. I'm just saying when your inexpensive blade runs out (gets old) you buy a new one. But if the competition has a better blade then you buy that one next because it last longer, so fewer purchases are neccessary.
MS has nothing inexpensive with no real need to update in the first place. But if they do feel the need to stay ahead of the curve to maintain their edge, then at least make it so all other software isn't in need of upgrading too! I shouldn't need a new form of shaving cream. For the most part they haven't left you too high and dry in the past, but as you know some things get sunsetted way too early. All in the name of good business. As a consumer I worry that it's over pricing me to death.

Now I could bite the bullet, or switch over to Linux or something. It's my choice. Which I won't be making any time soon. Except for at work with servers we install for various software of ours that we sell. We will use MS for those.

\\Give me back\Give me back my bullet\byte down hard

P.S. The kings are dead... Long live Ma Bell!

[acushla]

MS has nothing inexpensive with no real need to update in the first place. But if they do feel the need to stay ahead of the curve to maintain their edge, then at least make it so all other software isn't in need of upgrading too!!I understand what you are saying but I'm wondering if it applies given a discussion about VISTA.

I would make a comparison to a car manufacturer who, having a model X then introduces a model Y. Model Y, although still a 'car' is in fact a much different type of car that, among other characteristics, has had a lot more engineering applied to it. The majority of parts and components are NOT interchangeable with car X. Those buying car Y are in for a much different experience than those who own car X. There are many attributes to car Y that represent technological breakthroughs in areas such as breaking, a revolutionary new way of supplying the valveless engine which results in more miles per galleon than any other consumer car on the market...and a number of other features that, since I am simply making a point, do not need to be listed.

Now all of these features represent 'progress' and an improvement over Car X. The fact that the two cars are incompatible and do not share parts is a natural consequence of that 'improvement'. If the engineers had simply come up with 'add ons' which built upon car X..well, you'd have something 'different' which would accept all of the original parts...but what you wouldn't have is a car with the revolutionary technological advancements that car Y represents.

Weather or not we need all of these new technological advancements or not is, I believe, an entirely separate issue. The facts of life are that engineers everywhere are constantly working on new ideas which, as they become available, are constantly changing our world.

It's how it works.

My personal experience is that the greater percentage of 'new' which is introduced on the market is in fact an improvement over what it is replacing. Digital photography immediately comes to my mind (as does SACD...but I've been told NOT to go there :ponder: ;) ...just having fun now) as does Windows XP over any OS that came before it. The fact with XP is that it would not exist without Windows 95. VISTA, on the other hand, does sound as if we are about to get behind the wheel of car Y.

I have stated this before...I for one cannot wait to take it around the track.

[Inthewoods]

The following is only my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it: /RantON

Ya know the "boy I hate big bad evil Micro$oft" chorus is getting awfully old, like a broken record. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Microsoft, but the reason they're so big and such a huge presence in the marketplace is because they sell a LOT of product. Why? Because a LOT of folks find Windows to be an entertaining, educational, productive, creative tool which no other operating system can match.

OK, OK I know, Linux, Linux, Linux, etc, etc...remember Warp? But guess what, nobody held a gun to my head, or anyone else's, and made me buy my first version of Windows, or any subsequent one for that matter (I was even naive enough to buy an ME upgrade). We bought it because for whatever reason, we wanted it.

I think if those who continually bash M$ really do some soul searching, they'll have to admit that there is something about the Windows OS they like, or want, or need. If that wasn't true, they wouldn't be bitching about windows being buggy or insecure or bloated, because they wouldn't be using it.

Don't misunderstand my point here, I KNOW Windows is far from the ideal OS, but I rarely whine about it because the good far outweighs the bad. I just can't understand folks who continue to rant about "EVIL M$", and continue to use their products!

To these folks I say I'd just like to say "Shut up and go get a copy of Linux!"

Is M$ a monopoly? Sure it is! Does the company abuse it's position? Probably at least a bit. There is one way to stop them though, they can't stay in business if they can't sell their products. Are any of us ready to give up Windows completely, either at home or at work? I'm not, that's for sure. Are you?

/RantOFF

There I feel much better now.:grin:

[madjo]

okay Inthewoods.. indeed the whining can get old.. but those people do have a point.
You pay big bucks for a product that doesn't deliver on its promises (This Windows will be more secure... contain less bugs). If they know they can't act on those promises, they should not make them.

You pay for an expensive product, you should be getting something that is actually worth the money you invested in it. But like in many things, when something costs a lot, it is actually worth very little. :)

In my eyes at least parts of most gripes are valid. (Because I had the same issues on my systems).

And you can say what you want about Linux, but there at least you know your complaints aren't falling to deaf ears (if you post it in the support fora).
Where can you go, when you find a bug in Windows?

[Qaz]

okay Inthewoods.. indeed the whining can get old.. but those people do have a point.
You pay big bucks for a product that doesn't deliver on its promises (This Windows will be more secure... contain less bugs). If they know they can't act on those promises, they should not make them.
/me thinks every version of Windows has been better than the previous...

And you can say what you want about Linux, but there at least you know your complaints aren't falling to deaf ears (if you post it in the support fora).
Where can you go, when you find a bug in Windows?
http://support.microsoft.com/ ?

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

You pay big bucks for a product that doesn't deliver on its promises (This Windows will be more secure... contain less bugs).


Do I? Hmmm....lets see...i think of it more as 'free for personal use' but maybe im not allowed to say that heh heh.

[rorythedog]

Do I? Hmmm....lets see...i think of it more as 'free for personal use' but maybe im not allowed to say that heh heh.

I apply this code to all software. BTW, no, you're not allowed to say that. lol

[Inthewoods]

okay Inthewoods.. indeed the whining can get old.. but those people do have a point.
You pay big bucks for a product that doesn't deliver on its promises (This Windows will be more secure... contain less bugs). If they know they can't act on those promises, they should not make them.HUH?? Do you actually think Windows XP is not less buggy and more secure than 98? And 98 is no better than 95?

Besides, you're making my point exactly. How do you know there are still bugs and security hole, unless you are using it? If Windows is so bad, why are you using it?

You pay for an expensive product, you should be getting something that is actually worth the money you invested in it. But like in many things, when something costs a lot, it is actually worth very little. :)Windows isn't really that pricy. Most shareware costs between $10 and $50 (U.S. $) for a single application. You can buy Windows XP Home Edition for around $100 and that's the entire OS.

In my eyes at least parts of most gripes are valid. (Because I had the same issues on my systems).

And you can say what you want about Linux, but there at least you know your complaints aren't falling to deaf ears (if you post it in the support fora).
Where can you go, when you find a bug in Windows?If Linux complaints really were being addressed, I'd probably be using it myself. The ongoing issues of buggy drivers or worse yet, lack of drivers, along with configuration issues, make it a nightmare for the average user. Unless of course, a person's idea of "fun" is endlessly trying to get a system configured the way you want it.

Where can a person get Windows support? Besides Microsoft.com, you can always use Google.

[ace2701]

ah yes.. the purchase of SBC was the last aquisition, was it not?

Actually, SBC purchased ATT.

[BALTY]

I think if those who continually bash M$ really do some soul searching, they'll have to admit that there is something about the Windows OS they like, or want, or need. If that wasn't true, they wouldn't be bitching about windows being buggy or insecure or bloated, because they wouldn't be using it.


/RantOFF

There I feel much better now.:grin:
Yes, This is so true!

I would make a comparison to a car manufacturer who, having a model X then introduces a model Y. Model Y, .
Understood what it is you are saying... BUT hehehe Always a but!!! But I never seem to be able to talk MS down in price like I do with car dealers!
Different animal those car people! :rolleyes:

[acushla]

Different animal those car people! :rolleyes:Except, pf course, for SATURN dealers.

[madjo]

HUH?? Do you actually think Windows XP is not less buggy and more secure than 98? And 98 is no better than 95?
no of course not.. I'm not bloody stupid... every one was a little bit better than the last, but in the mean time it introduced whole new bugs, big enough to drive a truck through.

Besides, you're making my point exactly. How do you know there are still bugs and security hole, unless you are using it? If Windows is so bad, why are you using it?
I switched almost a year ago to Linux so I have stopped using Windows!
I have used nearly ALL Windows versions, (I know what I'm talking about).. and I switched because WIndows crashed one time too many (I lost quite a few valuable documents for me, luckily I had backups.
But the point is, that an OS is such a critical piece of software that should NOT crash and take out half your hard drive, and I can honestly say that although I have made Linux crash a few in the past 10 years that I've tried it (on and off), it never ever removed any files.

My job is Software Test engineer (currently working on a project for pensionplans software for the largest pension-insurer for the Health care in the Netherlands), so I know how demanding Quality Assurance can be. It has to be nearly perfect, before it can be released into the company.

I know that Windows has to take into account many different hardware set ups, and that is very difficult to test... so crashes do occur, but taking out a hard drive is pretty serious, and no I was not doing much demanding stuff at the time. And I kept my machine pretty clean. (which is a feat in itself on Windows)

Windows isn't really that pricy. Most shareware costs between $10 and $50 (U.S. $) for a single application. You can buy Windows XP Home Edition for around $100 and that's the entire OS.
well here, it is quite pricy, and IMO the XP Home edition is a crippled Windows. (I have a home network, try maintaining that in Home edition without reverting to hacks.

If Linux complaints really were being addressed, I'd probably be using it myself. The ongoing issues of buggy drivers or worse yet, lack of drivers, along with configuration issues, make it a nightmare for the average user. Unless of course, a person's idea of "fun" is endlessly trying to get a system configured the way you want it.
can you blame MS for crappy device drivers? No, you blame the companies that made the drivers...
same goes for Linux, but here we have a chicken and egg problem.
Device makers don't want to support a niche market, so they won't release the APIs or the drivers or the specs to the Linux public, because that market is too small, to risk releasing corporate secrets... and the majority of users won't switch because 1) they're scared of change and 2) their favorite device isn't supported.
Linux has to work with device drivers written by volunteers who do not always have access to the full specs, and can only do so much to get it stable.
Sure you have NVidia doing a great job at releasing decent Linux drivers for their cards, but if you run ATI, basically you're screwed.
And again, you CAN'T blame GNU/Linux for that.

Where can a person get Windows support? Besides Microsoft.com, you can always use Google. Sure, Google knows everything, but it isn't the same as firing an email to a developer of a certain program you are using, telling him that you have this and this type of problem, and you can't find any solution on your own.
This type of support I recently got when I tried to install FeedTree (http://feedtree.net/)
And the developer was really responsive, and willing to help out and find a possible solution... giving me a few debug versions to see where the h*ll it went wrong.

And in my spare time I actively support an open source weblogtool called Pivot (http://www.pivotlog.net), so I know how support could be done.

[rorythedog]

Except, pf course, for SATURN dealers.

Nice car. :silly:

[Todd The Kiwi]

pay for ?
you mean pwned? oops i mean owned heh

man i'd love to have a go at linux, but dang is it confusing :cry:
i download a gig of install files and a week later they are all updated
so i have to download another half gig to keep up...
and shit why are there so many of them eek!
i like seeing the linux screenies in the wallpaper thread though :silly:

[Qaz]

pay for ?
you mean pwned? oops i mean owned heh

man i'd love to have a go at linux, but dang is it confusing :cry:
i download a gig of install files and a week later they are all updated
so i have to download another half gig to keep up...
and shit why are there so many of them eek!
i like seeing the linux screenies in the wallpaper thread though :silly:
You're saying updates are bad?-)

[Todd The Kiwi]

You're saying updates are bad?-)
ok wrong wording, but that often and that size?
c'mon ;)

[Inthewoods]

My job is Software Test engineer (currently working on a project for pensionplans software for the largest pension-insurer for the Health care in the Netherlands), so I know how demanding Quality Assurance can be. It has to be nearly perfect, before it can be released into the company.

I know that Windows has to take into account many different hardware set ups, and that is very difficult to test... so crashes do occur, but taking out a hard drive is pretty serious, and no I was not doing much demanding stuff at the time. And I kept my machine pretty clean. (which is a feat in itself on Windows)
You really must think I'm ignorant. Just so happens I'm an STE as well, been doing it since 1973. I'm certainly bright enough in any case to know that stating that Windows can "take out" a hard drive is pure bullsh*t, and you know it. There are 4 things that can destroy a hard drive, heat, physical abuse (dropping, etc), power surges, and contamination inside the drive. Period, End of story.

can you blame MS for crappy device drivers? No, you blame the companies that made the drivers...
same goes for Linux, but here we have a chicken and egg problem.
Device makers don't want to support a niche market, so they won't release the APIs or the drivers or the specs to the Linux public, because that market is too small, to risk releasing corporate secrets... and the majority of users won't switch because 1) they're scared of change (my edit: nonsense!)and 2) their favorite device isn't supported.(my edit: I agree completely) I never "blamed" Linux or anybody at all for bad drivers, I simply said that buggy drivers is one reason it's a user's nightmare. Linux has to work with device drivers written by volunteers who do not always have access to the full specs, and can only do so much to get it stable. And I sure as heck can blame the Linux developers for that!Sure, Google knows everything, but it isn't the same as firing an email to a developer of a certain program you are using, telling him that you have this and this type of problem, and you can't find any solution on your own.And what makes you think that Windows users can't do that as well? I've solved many problems doing just that. Besides, you're talking about solving problems with applications, not the OS.

In any case, I'm not anti-Linux at all, I just want to use a computer for enjoyment, I have enough technical hassles at work. I want stability, lots of freeware, good documentation, and a smooth, easy to use OS. (and I want to be able to use my beloved QMP without some klugey WINE type manager)

WinXP fills the bill for me, you may like Linux better, so be it.:calm:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

OS wars! w00t! Everybody join in! :biggrin: Linux has just one big flaw. Few games are being developed for it. Doom, Quake, and UT and that's about it. Come on!!!!!!

[Inthewoods]

OS wars! w00t! Everybody join in! :biggrin: Linux has just one big flaw. Few games are being developed for it. Doom, Quake, and UT and that's about it. Come on!!!!!!T' ain't no war, man, just a difference of opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...:ponder:

[Willow of Oz]

same goes for Linux, but here we have a chicken and egg problem.
Device makers don't want to support a niche market, so they won't release the APIs or the drivers or the specs to the Linux public, because that market is too small, to risk releasing corporate secrets... and the majority of users won't switch because 1) they're scared of change and 2) their favorite device isn't supported.

Actually, I'll agree with point 1 here, and argue it applies to most things, but specifically also applications. You know how hard it is to convince people (sigh, let's say older people, forgive me) to change to firefox? Or other non-standard applications? Actually, come to that, if I had them running open office, a jabber client, firefox and thunderbird I probably wouldn't have much difficulty in shifting them to linux.
Windows is quite stable for me, barring crappy drivers (yes Matrox) and totally feral drivers (yes Appian). And barring heat (it's Oz, and, well, just don't go there). Too often the featureset and limitations of the OS are confused with the filesystem. Don't like the closed and proprietary format of Word? That's not the OS. Don't like the limitations of the ntfs filesystem? That's not the OS. Don't like clicking on GUI dialogs to do mundane tasks? Learn to script. Actual restrictions placed on you by the OS are often fewer than people realise. Often the attitude to Windows is if you don't see an icon for it, you assume it can't be done. Linux users assume it can be, and therefore look in their man pages et al. It's partly a matter of user perception; it's also partly a matter of author intent.
Finally, you may not get BSODs under Linux, but you also don't get kernel panics in Windows :pirate:
And yes, I also did a stint as an STE, in case I have to be 'qualified' to enter the discussion ;)

[madjo]

OS wars! w00t! Everybody join in! :biggrin: Linux has just one big flaw. Few games are being developed for it. Doom, Quake, and UT and that's about it. Come on!!!!!!
Sauerbraten (http://strlen.com/sauerbraten/), Nexuiz (http://www.nexuiz.com/), Glest (http://www.glest.org/), Darwinia (http://www.darwinia.co.uk/), UFO: Alien Invasion (http://www.ufoai.net/), Neverball (http://icculus.org/neverball/), flightgear (http://www.flightgear.org/), planeshift (http://www.planeshift.it).

Oh and you have Savage (http://www.s2games.com/savage/), and the upcoming Savage 2 (http://savage2.s2games.com/) will be for linux too.

What more games do you want? There are plenty, even open source games, and not all of them are Tetris/pacman clones. :P
Above are just a handful of games available for GNU/Linux.

Oh and don't worry, in contrast to the many Windows-only games, most of these games run on Linux, Windows and in some occassion also on Macs. :)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Sauerbraten (http://strlen.com/sauerbraten/), Nexuiz (http://www.nexuiz.com/), Glest (http://www.glest.org/), Darwinia (http://www.darwinia.co.uk/), UFO: Alien Invasion (http://www.ufoai.net/), Neverball (http://icculus.org/neverball/), flightgear (http://www.flightgear.org/), planeshift (http://www.planeshift.it).

Oh and you have Savage (http://www.s2games.com/savage/), and the upcoming Savage 2 (http://savage2.s2games.com/) will be for linux too.

What more games do you want? There are plenty, even open source games, and not all of them are Tetris/pacman clones. :P
Above are just a handful of games available for GNU/Linux.

Oh and don't worry, in contrast to the many Windows-only games, most of these games run on Linux, Windows and in some occassion also on Macs. :)

I gotta admit darwinia is an interesting game. I never heard of the others. But right now im only interested in TES:Oblivion ;) I hope i wont have to wait long...

Inthewoods, i was just joking :) A bit of sarcasm never hurt anyone (i hope).

[Inthewoods]

You know how hard it is to convince people (sigh, let's say older people, forgive me) to change to firefox? Or other non-standard applications?.....Maybe that's just cuz we like Avant and Maxthon better:devil: :bandit: ..... feral drivers (yes Appian)......."feral drivers". that is truly a good one, bravo!...... Often the attitude to Windows is if you don't see an icon for it, you assume it can't be done. Linux users assume it can be, and therefore look in their man pages et al. It's partly a matter of user perception; it's also partly a matter of author intent......I agree completely........Finally, you may not get BSODs under Linux, but you also don't get kernel panics in Windows :pirate:.....Yep, and I've met more than a few Linux lovers who are in total denial about that, "....but, but, but...it's not Linux, it's the driiivvvvers!!!!"........And yes, I also did a stint as an STE, in case I have to be 'qualified' to enter the discussion ;)We're all qualified here, but especially those who agree with me....:cool:

[rorythedog]

What's an "STE"? :o

[Qaz]

What's an "STE"? :o
Software testing engineer.

[rorythedog]

Software testing engineer.

Thanks Qaz, I thought it might be something like that. Doesn't the term apply to all of us to a greater or lesser degree?

[Qaz]

Thanks Qaz, I thought it might be something like that. Doesn't the term apply to all of us to a greater or lesser degree?
Kinda. Though only some of us get paid for it.

[Inthewoods]

Kinda. Though only some of us get paid for it.Not really. But, once again, that's just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.:calm:

[acushla]

Not really. But, once again, that's just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.:calm:Getting paid makes you a 'Pro'...anything else and you're an amateur!;)

[rorythedog]

Not really. But, once again, that's just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.:calm:

I wasn't trying to imply that I do the same job as you. :calm:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Getting paid makes you a 'Pro'...anything else and you're an amateur!;)

There's still room for error for amateurs, professionals should be more careful ha ha (no offense)

So if an amateur tells a n00b to do something and the computer blows up, it could be the amateur's fault but in the end we all blame it on the n00b anyways ha ha.

[madjo]

You really must think I'm ignorant. Just so happens I'm an STE as well, been doing it since 1973. I'm certainly bright enough in any case to know that stating that Windows can "take out" a hard drive is pure bullsh*t, and you know it. There are 4 things that can destroy a hard drive, heat, physical abuse (dropping, etc), power surges, and contamination inside the drive. Period, End of story.
So you never had Windows crash on you while writing a file? Doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all... It happened to me, the result was NOT funny.

And no, I did not drop my HD, it was not overheated (long live those extra fans), there was no power surge (my pc was the only one affected), and I don't believe there was contamination inside the drive... all I know is that after the crash I had lost much data, and many sectors were corrupted.

I don't care what you think... I merely stated my experience... period.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I have not had a serious windows crash in many many months. That programmes crash, okay, but that's just bad coding of that particular programme. Maybe im just getting good at maintaining windows in optimal working condition. I havent re-installed windowsXP in over 1.5 years either. As a newbie with linux, i managed to crash linux just as many times as when i was still getting to know windowsXP. Installing videocard drivers for linux always gave me a headache because i would keep screwing up the X window system. Compiling dependencies and keeping linux up to date was simply too much work as well. I'm not saying linux is bad but i dont see it as superior to windows either.

[madjo]

I have not had a serious windows crash in many many months. That programmes crash, okay, but that's just bad coding of that particular programme. Maybe im just getting good at maintaining windows in optimal working condition. I havent re-installed windowsXP in over 1.5 years either. As a newbie with linux, i managed to crash linux just as many times as when i was still getting to know windowsXP. Installing videocard drivers for linux always gave me a headache because i would keep screwing up the X window system. Compiling dependencies and keeping linux up to date was simply too much work as well. I'm not saying linux is bad but i dont see it as superior to windows either.
In Ubuntu (and other Debian-like distro's) you don't have to compile much, unless you want to.. many applications are already in so called repositories... just select the apps/drivers you want, and click apply, any missing dependencies will be filled in for you.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

EEEk! Inthewoods has been Acushla all along!

Anyway...

Sweet, i just discovered the exact time i last installed windows:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/RMI/stats.jpg


So i guess the statistics speak for themselves. And look, not a single blue screen of death! :)

[Inthewoods]

So you never had Windows crash on you while writing a file? Doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all... It happened to me, the result was NOT funny.

And no, I did not drop my HD, it was not overheated (long live those extra fans), there was no power surge (my pc was the only one affected), and I don't believe there was contamination inside the drive... all I know is that after the crash I had lost much data, and many sectors were corrupted.

I don't care what you think... I merely stated my experience... period.That's fine, but the FACT remains that the 4 things I mentioned (along with cable and or motor failure) are the ONLY things that can destroy a hard drive. It's basic physics. The bits and bytes that an operating system (or a program) writes to or erases from a hard drive cannot destroy it. It's just data changes. Windows might change some data during a crash, but it CANNOT destroy a hard drive, any more than it can fry a keyboard or a monitor. That is not just my opinion, it's physical fact. Period.

[Willow of Oz]

That's fine, but the FACT remains that the 4 things I mentioned (along with cable and or motor failure) are the ONLY things that can destroy a hard drive. It's basic physics. The bits and bytes that an operating system (or a program) writes to or erases from a hard drive cannot destroy it. It's just data changes. Windows might change some data during a crash, but it CANNOT destroy a hard drive, any more than it can fry a keyboard or a monitor. That is not just my opinion, it's physical fact. Period.

could you not move the heads on a hdd out to beyond the edge and smack them around? Alter the bios on the drive? ?

[Inthewoods]

could you not move the heads on a hdd out to beyond the edge and smack them around? ?That would fall under "physical abuse"Alter the bios on the drive?Oops. I guess I'd have to add "deliberate sabotage" to my list. Even so, that would not destroy the drive, it would make it temporarily inoperable, since you could restore the correct bios. In any case, that's not something an OS can do.

[Willow of Oz]

That would fall under "physical abuse"Oops. I guess I'd have to add "deliberate sabotage" to my list. Even so, that would not destroy the drive, it would make it temporarily inoperable, since you could restore the correct bios. In any case, that's not something an OS can do.

Sorry, my first point was to be accomplished through software.
And yes, both points are more application centric than OS.

[BALTY]

Have you guys ever had to update Flash the bios on a hard drive.
I had to for a few servers in the past. HP SCSI drives. HP likes to see them at the latest release to help in the bugs of earlier versions just like you see for any OS.
But yes, this has to be done differently outside, (prior to and at a lower level) then any OS.

Oh; and true about the drive physical properties, except people don't realize that at some point in time any magnetized media will loose it's effectiveness. Of course this could be 5 - 10 years, could be more or less. More I would hope, but for the most part people don't keep things that long. Whether it be from other things breaking down first, or simply the media is too small and slow(outdated by todays specs).

I do have some floppy disks nearly 18 years old that still have good info on them. and a few that just lost part of it's format, or data just due to age. Kinda like old video tapes loosing quality. (always keep them away from other magnetic forces of course). Only in the computer world this can be critical to reading the media. Sometimes you can reformat, and it'll be good to use for quite sometime! Sometimes they are useless.

[madjo]

[comment removed by MadJo]

[BALTY]

No need to opt out Madjo

[Todd The Kiwi]

if when you say OS you mean Office Shit then yes it's quite possible ha ha ha
ummm excuse me...

[Inthewoods]

Oh; and true about the drive physical properties, except people don't realize that at some point in time any magnetized media will loose it's effectiveness. Of course this could be 5 - 10 years, could be more or less. More I would hope, but for the most part people don't keep things that long. Whether it be from other things breaking down first, or simply the media is too small and slow(outdated by todays specs).

I do have some floppy disks nearly 18 years old that still have good info on them. and a few that just lost part of it's format, or data just due to age. Kinda like old video tapes loosing quality. (always keep them away from other magnetic forces of course). Only in the computer world this can be critical to reading the media. Sometimes you can reformat, and it'll be good to use for quite sometime! Sometimes they are useless.That's very true. I actually have a couple hundredor so old 5 1/4 floppies (the "real floppy" ones) that actually still contain good data, at least the few that I've tried, but I think I'm just lucky as they are from the 1987-89 timeframe. One of these days when I have a few spare hours, I'll cable up the old 386 and burn them all on a cd, or at least the ones that have anything useful. There are at least a few versions of DOS and some text based games, it should be a hoot. (boy that sure sounds like I need to get a real life doesn't it?):ponder:

[acushla]

Again I disagree, but so be it.

Disagree or not...isn't that how, generally, the world works? I'm not a big sports fan but seem to recall a smilier criteria being used...somewhere. Perhaps Ice Skating. You could not compete in amateur events if you were being paid to do whatever it was you were doing. What about other sport leagues...one is only a Pro Football, Basketball, Baseball, Hockey player if you are being paid to play. Formula One drivers...Paid...Pro...freeway parking lot drivers...not paid....amateur. In fact...I am unable to think of anything one does for free which carries the designation 'Pro'.

I know you are not 'stupid' ('cause you told me you weren't' :) ) but I will point out that I am not talking about 'ability' here...simply the way the world categorizes things.:globe:

[Inthewoods]

.....I know you are not 'stupid' ('cause you told me you weren't' :) ) but I will point out that I am not talking about 'ability' here...simply the way the world categorizes things.:globe:I don't recall ever telling you I wasn't stupid (then again I don't recall a lot of things):confused: Anyway, what I was talking about was exactly what you said, namely, the way the world categorizes things. More specifically, the misuse/abuse of the title Engineer, and the general way in which my profession is maligned. The worst offenders are the employers themselves.

Oh, and btw, engineering is not a sport, there are no "pro" or "amateur" engineers, there are simply Engineers, and wannabes. (I'm not saying you said otherwise, but I couldn't help noticing that your post only mentioned sports.:calm:

[BALTY]

YA! I was once a Customer service representative. Then a Field Engineer. :cheeky: Then something else (I can't remember), then back to CSR again. And throughout these title changes I did the same job. I guess the Engineers didn't like the fact we were abusing their title!:paranoid:
From that day forward I stopped engineering my way through fixes, and remedies. Now I just service, and represent, and go home!
:sleeping: Take that!!

[acushla]

I don't recall ever telling you I wasn't stupid (then again I don't recall a lot of things):confused:

You really must think I'm ignorant.
Ignorant...stupid.

Us...me.

My bad.:rolleyes: :laugh:

[Todd The Kiwi]

I don't recall ever telling you I wasn't stupidha ha ha, nice one woods =)

[Willow of Oz]

I had a housemate who was a real mech type engineer. He used to laugh when I referred to myself as a software 'engineer'.
"you're not an engineer".

[BALTY]

How about Sales Engineer? I have run into a few of those.
Now that's a true engineer!!:cross-eye

[rorythedog]

So does the fact that I get paid for my work mean that I'm a "professional" driver? :laugh:

[Inthewoods]

Ignorant...stupid.

Us...me.

My bad.:rolleyes: :laugh::rolleyes: Not really, but when I wrote that, I wasn't replying to you:cross-eye

[madjo]

:rolleyes: Not really, but when I wrote that, I wasn't replying to you:cross-eye
fora are open in the sense that you don't necessarily speak to just one person (everyone can read it), sure you can have conversations/discussions/arguments/rows with just one person on a forum board, but it isn't 1 on 1.

[Inthewoods]

fora are open in the sense that you don't necessarily speak to just one person (everyone can read it), sure you can have conversations/discussions/arguments/rows with just one person on a forum board, but it isn't 1 on 1.No kidding. I simply stated that when I said that, I was not replying to him, and I wasn't. Jeeez I hope all my future posts meet with everyone's approval.

[acushla]

:rolleyes: Not really, but when I wrote that, I wasn't replying to you:cross-eyeHence the us...me.

Write to one, write for all.

No harm.

[acushla]

So does the fact that I get paid for my work mean that I'm a "professional" driver? :laugh:No...means you get paid for delivering pizza's.:confused:




ZING.

[rorythedog]

No...means you get paid for delivering pizza's.:confused:




ZING.

I had that job once. Problem?

[acushla]

I had that job once. Problem?Take it in the spirit it was given...ZING was your clue.

No...I do not have a problem with it. Why would I?

[rorythedog]

Take it in the spirit it was given...ZING was your clue.

No...I do not have a problem with it. Why would I?

Saying "zing" where you are might mean you're cool. Here it makes you a fanny.

[Todd The Kiwi]

ha ha ha ha ha har har har har oh man i just wet myself =)
fanny indeed.

[acushla]

Saying "zing" where you are might mean you're cool. Here it makes you a fanny.Zing...short for Zinger:

A
noun

1
zinger


a striking or amusing or caustic remark; "he always greeted me with a new zinger"; "she tried to think of some killer of an argument, a real zinger that would disarm all opposition"

Category Tree:
abstraction
╚relation
╚social relation
╚communication
╚message; content; subject matter; substance
╚statement
╚remark; comment
╚zinger

'Nuff said.

[Inthewoods]

Zing...short for Zinger:

A
noun

1
zinger


a striking or amusing or caustic remark; "he always greeted me with a new zinger"; "she tried to think of some killer of an argument, a real zinger that would disarm all opposition"

Category Tree:
abstraction
╚relation
╚social relation
╚communication
╚message; content; subject matter; substance
╚statement
╚remark; comment
╚zinger

'Nuff said.I think it's the "internationality" of this forum (did I just invent a new word?) that leads to different interpretations. It's sort of an extension of the "What do they say where you come from?" thread.

I know this is not the right thread, but where I come from there's a saying "Sticking your foot in your mouth" or "Open mouth, insert foot." (Please dont ask, because I have no idea of the origin). Basically it means saying something which either insults or embarrasses someone else (or yourself) in a social situation. So while a person's comment here may be totally innocuous (innocent in intent), a reader of said comment might think the author really "put his foot in his mouth.":biggrin:

I perfectly understood "Zing", as well as some other comments made here which other folks have taken exception to. I offer all this simply as "food for thought" (another thing we say where I come from) as to why things get heated here occasionally.:cool:

[rorythedog]

The closest we have is "Dinger". Wrong context though. If I was to say "He's gone faur aff his dinger". Meaning - My my, that chap has really lost his composure. :evolved:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Zing is dutch for '(I) sing'. :cool: Nice 1 Acushla

Like 'Ik zing dit liedje' = 'I sing this song'

[WHAT?]

The closest we have is "Dinger". ......:evolved:

:cheerful: Here they say... If you shake your dinger more than once [when relieving yourself in the "JOHN" (loo in British)], You're playing with it!:ponder:

Yes, this all should be in the "What do you say where you come from!"

...and BTW; I'm close to my dinger too!;)

[BALTY]

Speaking of updating the flash and such...(post #96)... I need to do this again on one of my customers servers. I hate doing this! I always fear for the worse!
It's a LSI Logic ScSi controller . . . :robot:
I had a drive bomb out on me last week. It's in a RAID 5 configuration - with a fourth drive as a hotswap spare. The Hotswap spare tried to join the array by rebuilding first automatically, but it tanked too, not sure why. But upon carefully forcing it to rebuild (as to try it again manually), the whole server went down. The rebuild rate was at 100%, and that ain't so good on a busy productive server during peek time!
Man! some files had gotten screwed up!:mad:
Long and short of it... I found that the bios-and-that are way outta date.
Oh I just can't wait to do this!!:confused:.. and it means after hours for me, and downtime for them. Hope it isn't a looooong downtime.