Waveout and crossfade

[lynott]

Hi all!

Can anyone recommend a good crossfader?
I need one since I use the waveout plugin. Tried to find one over at wa, but no luck.

Thanks

[Quake]

Since you want to to use the WaveOut plugin, try this DSP plugin
http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=128793

[lynott]

Since you want to to use the WaveOut plugin, try this DSP plugin
http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=128793
Thanks Quake.

The crossfade plugin sounded great in build 66 and previous, but sounds strange in build 67. That's why I'm currently using waveout.


Edit!
Well, ofcourse, after a driverupgrade the crossfade plugin again sounds just as nice as before.....*blush*

[Tokelil]

Should have been a reply to:
http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16707
???

[acozz]

Yep....sorry people ( haven't a clue where my mind was when that ended up here) Could one of the moderators please move my previous post to the correct thread?

I can't move specific posts to other threads. Copy the post over and I'll delete these.

[Roj]

I have a little different personal "want list" for QCD development. I agree wholeheartedly the that media library plugin misses the mark integration wise. The same goes for the sclister. To me, a true "Media Library" would be native, not a plugin,
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do NOT condone bloat, in any guise.

[Roj]

Thanks Quake.

The crossfade plugin sounded great in build 66 and previous, but sounds strange in build 67. That's why I'm currently using waveout.


Edit!
Well, ofcourse, after a driverupgrade the crossfade plugin again sounds just as nice as before.....*blush*
What ong God's earth are you using for a sound card?

[BALTY]

I have a little different personal "want list" for QCD development. I agree wholeheartedly the that media library plugin misses the mark integration wise. The same goes for the sclister. To me, a true "Media Library" would be native, not a plugin, and would include streaming audio. They could be extensions, just like the playlist. I also would like to see true seamless playback with ALL plugins and formats, without having to conjure up the "eye of newt" thing like Roj did. Also, a native resume function (like fb2k) would be a wonderful thing. A simple "do you want QCD to resume where it last was? yes/no" type of option. My fondest wish would be for a more refined, global volume/EQ system, which wasn't plugin dependant. For me, the above mentioned items would make QCD virtually perfect.

On the other hand, it's nice and convenient that QCD can encode files and playback video, but not important to me. We have EAC, CDex, Audiograbber for encoding, and Media Player Classic for video. I would rather see QCD focus on what it does best: audio playback. Just my opinion.
Me too! Thank you for hitting right on! QDC does do a good job of that and a WaveOut Crossfade and the like would be awesome!!!

[Roj]

Me too! Thank you for hitting right on! QDC does do a good job of that and a WaveOut Crossfade and the like would be awesome!!!
I used to believe fervently in .wav out. However with a quality sound card, DirectSound finally has equalled and surpassed .wav output. The fact that a driver upgrade could make a difference to the previous poster indicates where the fault really lies.

IMO, wav output is pretty much passe.

[hedge]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do NOT condone bloat, in any guise.
You can't seriously think a plugin that is able to be disabled is bloat!!! And even if the media library isn't integrated as a plugin, it won't be all that much bloat anyway...
The same goes for alpha blending, but i remember reading somewhere that Paul's working on something non-skin orientated.

[brian]

My main reason for preferring the waveout plugin is that when using it the music plays at a sensible volume. With DirectSound I have to turn every control in sight up to 100% to get the volume up to anything like the right level for my ears and environment.

[Inthewoods]

My main reason for preferring the waveout plugin is that when using it the music plays at a sensible volume. With DirectSound I have to turn every control in sight up to 100% to get the volume up to anything like the right level for my ears and environment.
I have 2 comments on this issue:

1. I have no problem at all reaching "ears bleeding" volume with the QCD DirectSound crossfader. So much so that you can hear my QCD playing from my neighbor's yard across the street with all my windows closed. I do, however, have amplified speakers.

2. Having said that, I have observed that two of the most popular mainstream competing players (I'll call them WA and FB) do play louder than QCD when using DirectSound and crossfading for the same system volume.

What I'm getting at is that it seems that direct sound playback is not necessarily inherently less loud than WaveOut playback.

Me too! Thank you for hitting right on! QDC does do a good job of that and a WaveOut Crossfade and the like would be awesome!!!
The above was in response to one of my posts. Just to make things perfectly clear, I never have said I wanted a WaveOut crossfader. I's not important to me at all. I don't use WaveOut

[Roj]

You can't seriously think a plugin that is able to be disabled is bloat!!! And even if the media library isn't integrated as a plugin, it won't be all that much bloat anyway...
The same goes for alpha blending, but i remember reading somewhere that Paul's working on something non-skin orientated.
You're right - under those circumstances I don't think it's bloat. If it becomes part of the core code however...

THAT'S BLOAT!

This ain't Tinamp.

[Roj]

My main reason for preferring the waveout plugin is that when using it the music plays at a sensible volume. With DirectSound I have to turn every control in sight up to 100% to get the volume up to anything like the right level for my ears and environment.
DirectSound does produce slightly less volume than wave out. However, the sound card is producing the extreme volume discrepancy you're describing, from either a driver or hardware perspective.

[Roj]

2. Having said that, I have observed that two of the most popular mainstream competing players (I'll call them WA and FB) do play louder than QCD when using DirectSound and crossfading for the same system volume.They likely goose the volume and thus color the sound (the bit about coloring the sound is pure conjecture). I can say this because DirectSound is inherently prduces less volume that wav out - that's documented (Paul I think can confirm this).



What I'm getting at is that it seems that direct sound playback is not necessarily inherently less loud than WaveOut playback.Actually, as you can see from the above, it is. :)

[teedoff087]

You never cease to amaze me with your sound knowledge, Roj. :biggrin:

[brian]

Roj - so how do I get DirectSound to play at a sensible volume, please? I believe I have the same soundcard as you (Revo 7.1), with the latest driver (1.0.2.6). The difference in volume between waveout and DirectSound isn't `slight' on my system, it's the Grand Canyon!

Later note: the DirectSound crossfading plugin plays at significantly greater volume on my system than the simple DirectSound plugin, other settings being equal. I wonder why that is? I thought the only difference was that the former has crossfading options. Perhaps it's to do with the `Adjust volume' option in the crossfader plugin config?

Even later note: of course the ASIO plugin is better than either of these, when it's compatible with whatever source you're playing from, which means not all sources in my case.

[Inthewoods]

Roj, I should probably restate what I meant in my last post.

I wasn't intending to imply that the output of DirectSound is the same loudness as WaveOut, but rather that the plugin can be designed to compensate for the difference.

In other words, the output level of a DirectSound plugin is not "locked" to some output level, but rather that the volume CAN be "goosed" as you call it. That in and of itself should not color the sound any more than MP3Gain does, it's simply a change in output level. Sound coloration is a non issue.

To restate my quote: "What I'm getting at is that it seems that direct sound playback is not necessarily inherently less loud than WaveOut playback *****provided the DirectSound plugin is designed to compensate for the level differences*****"

[Roj]

Roj - so how do I get DirectSound to play at a sensible volume, please? I believe I have the same soundcard as you (Revo 7.1), with the latest driver (1.0.2.6). The difference in volume between waveout and DirectSound isn't `slight' on my system, it's the Grand Canyon!What drivers are you using? I'm using the last set released but I don't get a massive difference. I also push the volume up on the master slider to about 3/4 and I enable the Revo as the sound card in the QCD crossfade plugin as well as disabling the "adjust volume on primary buffer (system wide)" checkbox there.

Later note: the DirectSound crossfading plugin plays at significantly greater volume on my system than the simple DirectSound plugin, other settings being equal. I wonder why that is? I thought the only difference was that the former has crossfading options. Perhaps it's to do with the `Adjust volume' option in the crossfader plugin config?Bingo. I never use the simple directsound plugin, only the crossfader. As to what goes on inside the crossfader, I completely defer to Paul. :)

Even later note: of course the ASIO plugin is better than either of these, when it's compatible with whatever source you're playing from, which means not all sources in my case.I don't use the ASIO plugin - I find it superflous on a card like the Revo. IMO (and experience) the ASIO plugin is only of use with cards that are so "well designed" that they don't (can't?) sound decent without it (*cough*Creative Labs cards*cough*).

[Roj]

Roj, I should probably restate what I meant in my last post.

I wasn't intending to imply that the output of DirectSound is the same loudness as WaveOut, but rather that the plugin can be designed to compensate for the difference.

In other words, the output level of a DirectSound plugin is not "locked" to some output level, but rather that the volume CAN be "goosed" as you call it. That in and of itself should not color the sound any more than MP3Gain does, it's simply a change in output level. Sound coloration is a non issue.

To restate my quote: "What I'm getting at is that it seems that direct sound playback is not necessarily inherently less loud than WaveOut playback *****provided the DirectSound plugin is designed to compensate for the level differences*****"I amended my original post to iterate that the goosing didn't necessarily color the sound when I woke up this morning (I tend to on occasion view things somewhat more objectively when I'm not so full of beer and pizza :) ). Unfortunately, I did that before reading your post above so please accept my apologies - I'm not attempting to be revisionist.

[Inthewoods]

I amended my original post to iterate that the goosing didn't necessarily color the sound when I woke up this morning (I tend to on occasion view things somewhat more objectively when I'm not so full of beer and pizza :) ). Unfortunately, I did that before reading your post above so please accept my apologies - I'm not attempting to be revisionist.
No apology necessary whatsoever. No offense taken. After rereading my own original post, I can see exactly why you replied as you did. My only disagreement was with the colorization comment.

My overall feeling is that volume wise, there should be a synergy and similarity between all the output plugins and QCD, that is, for a given set of slider positions on the controls, the output for each plugin should be as close to equal as possible. I posted elsewhere:

My fondest wish would be for a more refined, global volume/EQ system, which wasn't plugin dependant.

This system would include 2 essential items, first, a set of "volume equalized" output plugins, and second, a refined EQ of the Shibatch/FB2K variety, which minimizes colorization when used, integrated into QCD.

BTW, I can certainly identify with your beer and pizza comment. Last night::beer: This morning: :coffee: LOL

[brian]

Roj - as I mentioned, I'm using Revo driver 1.0.2.6. I find that with the crossfading plugin the volume is at a decent level only when I have the `Adjust volume' option checked, which seems to be the opposite of your finding. With it unchecked, it's back to the Whispering Grass. I have the system volume at 80% and my hifi speakers at 6 on a scale of 0 to 10.

I thought the point of the ASIO plugin was that it dispenses with the Windows sound mixer and relies entirely on the quality of the soundcard. This was explained at some length by an ASIO `expert' in earlier threads on this topic. I certainly get a much clearer, louder and more robust sound when I use it with the Revo.

[Roj]

No apology necessary whatsoever. No offense taken. After rereading my own original post, I can see exactly why you replied as you did. My only disagreement was with the colorization comment.

My overall feeling is that volume wise, there should be a synergy and similarity between all the output plugins and QCD, that is, for a given set of slider positions on the controls, the output for each plugin should be as close to equal as possible. I posted elsewhere:

This system would include 2 essential items, first, a set of "volume equalized" output plugins, and second, a refined EQ of the Shibatch/FB2K variety, which minimizes colorization when used, integrated into QCD.
You've definitely got my vote on that.

BTW, I can certainly identify with your beer and pizza comment. Last night::beer: This morning: :coffee: LOL
Dragon Boat Races yesterday, penance today... :)

[Inthewoods]

You're right - under those circumstances I don't think it's bloat. If it becomes part of the core code however...

THAT'S BLOAT!

This ain't Tinamp.

You're perfectly right. And I'm happy that it isn't. I followed this thread up and just realized the "bloat" comment was in response to my saying a media library should be "native" to QCD. (Ya, I know, it took me long enough.....)

What I really meant by native is that a media library sould be a part of the QCD package...as an option that can be disabled (ie plugin)? Sure, why not..

I was referring to it being really a part of QCD, rather than a 3rd party plugin that, let's face it, is just OK and leaves us wanting more.

You know that funny old quote: "I know you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" LOLOL

[BALTY]

Wow great topic, I thought (at one time ) my card driver was up to date. I'll check online again (it's been 6 months or so). I DJ (un-professionally) for family and friends stuff. And yes, there is a need for hearing across the street with the windows closed... so-to-speak! ;) although be it "not often"! I hate to beat a dead horse but, let's get this clear. The writers of the "directsound style" could tweak the volume but choose not too? I use Turtle Beach(by Santa Cruz) I too have such a difference, not just in volume, but once cranked up on a external stereo amp/receiver, it loses it quality too. (Less KICK or something). My computer spkrs are powered too. I potentially will try that link posted earlier about the DSP crossfader, the reviews are questionable though. :coffee: I digress...

[BALTY]

Since you want to to use the WaveOut plugin, try this DSP plugin
http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=128793
Isn't this for WinAMp only?>

[Qaz]

Isn't this for WinAMp only?>
QCD can use Winamp's dsp plug-ins.

[Inthewoods]

Hey guys...WaveOut is an output plugin, not a DSP. Hello....???

[BALTY]

Hey guys...WaveOut is an output plugin, not a DSP. Hello....???
* From the website listed a couple of theads above!

Louis Louw's Comments:

Crossfade your music at the DSP level.

Staff Review:

Crossfade your mp3's

Fairly straightforward plugin that allows you to crossfade between files. You can fine tune the duration of the fade to get it to your liking. I noticed that the mp3 seems to jump or skip once a few seconds before the fade starts. It happened fairly consistently. I am running win2k and Winamp 2.81. Hopefully others have better luck with that.

Hey Balty here,
I tried this with my soundblaster 16 on my work place PC. Very choppy, and jumpy. I'm using Win XP, so my card driver's version level are what they are. No further updates. I'll try it at home with Santa Cruz card.

[matty28carter]

Fairly straightforward plugin that allows you to crossfade between files. You can fine tune the duration of the fade to get it to your liking. I noticed that the mp3 seems to jump or skip once a few seconds before the fade starts. It happened fairly consistently. I am running win2k and Winamp 2.81. Hopefully others have better luck with that.

In other words its crap. There was an WaveOut crossfading plug-in called SQRCrossfader but it wasn't updated to support QCD anymore (and it looks like it never will be). There was an attemp to make a sort of Winamp Output Plug-ins Manager by Shaohao (sorry if i spelt it wrong) but i think he hit problems or just didn't have any time to work on it. It did work as an output just it wouldn't crossfade. Perhaps MLO could take it on see if he can get better luck with it? (thats a please, please, please do!!!!)

[acozz]

shaohao said there were too many differences in the output plugins. Maybe it's not possible.

[matty28carter]

hmmm perhaps. mind you the SQR was designed to work with QCD as well as winamp, just the plug-in handeling was change in QCD (i think... don't quote me on that!). He did get it to kinda work (specifically the SQR fader) so perhaps with some more development it might (hopefully) work properly. Perhaps just specific development just to make that specific plug-in work would be a better idea.

[Roj]

hmmm perhaps. mind you the SQR was designed to work with QCD as well as winamp, just the plug-in handeling was change in QCD (i think... don't quote me on that!). He did get it to kinda work (specifically the SQR fader) so perhaps with some more development it might (hopefully) work properly. Perhaps just specific development just to make that specific plug-in work would be a better idea.
See my post in this thread:

http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16960#post16960//

...regarding what I think about spending time on further Winamp plugin compatibility development and priorities thereof.

[BALTY]

OK! Now that I've read Your post link from the past. Is anyone going to do anthing about it? The WinAmp Crossfader is a DSP level. Can this be done? Does it even need to be DSP level for the audio to be played louder? I just would like a KICKIN CROSSFADER PLUGIN at the SAME LEVEL output as waveout~ ***** Make it so #1 !

[Roj]

OK! Now that I've read Your post link from the past. Is anyone going to do anthing about it? The WinAmp Crossfader is a DSP level. Can this be done? Does it even need to be DSP level for the audio to be played louder? I just would like a KICKIN CROSSFADER PLUGIN at the SAME LEVEL output as waveout~ ***** Make it so #1 !
Personally I don't think anything needs to be done.

I'm typing this on my secondary box which includes a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz (I have two of them as well as the M-Audio Revolution 7.1 in my primary machine).

I have to say that the difference, while noticeable, is certainly not a big deal to my ears and I've had one of them hooked to my home system from time to time. I'd invest in a preamp or better yet a mixer with somewhat more sensitive inputs.