The Right To Blaspheme?

[rorythedog]

Man, how topical are the QCD forums? Right on the pulse, I'd say.

Blasphemous! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4670370.stm)

:cheerful:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Saudi Arabia is currently boycotting everything that is Danish because of a simple difference in the way things work under a government the Arab nation doesnt understand. In Saudi all the news papers are under strict government control. Of course this is not the case in Denmark (or the western world). So apologies from the Danish newspaper wasnt enough. Saudi wants apologies from the Danish government. Well...that aint going to happen. Freedom of speech remember. So it's a bit of a sticky situation.

[Tokelil]

Was wondering when this story would hit these boards! :)

It has been a very hot topic here in Denmark for the last 1-2 weeks, but haven't reached other countries before this monday I think where at least German and French news papers reprinted some of the drawings. (A Norwegian newspaper chose to reprint the drawings approx. 2 weeks ago though) Just heard that the man responsible for printing the drawings in the French newspaper has been fired.

It has already meant that Arla (largest dairy manufacturer in Denmark/Scandinavia) had to sack 100 employees, besides the bomb threats at the newspaper originally printing the drawings. Not really that fun seeing the Danish flag being burned in countries we normally support. Our soldiers in Irak is normally well thought of by local population, but this story pretty much ruins that.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Man this thing is going hot! To protect the right to free speech, newspapers from many other European nations have published the controversial cartoons. Bad move? A French editor was fired as a consequence but that didnt stop other nations including the netherlands to publish these pics as well. At any rate, things have gone from bad to worse. Mass demonstrations of Muslims and major boycots in the Arab world. All this because of some pictures intended to be funny. Last night there was a news item on the question whether Muslims have a sense of humour at all. Perhaps, the immigrated muslims in the western world do, due to integration in say, the dutch society, but the ones in the Arab world?

[Shewolf]

I cheer contraversial cartoons! Bring on the blaspheme!
Tis fun.

(You can probably tell i have a very low opinion of most religions and an even lower opinion of people that get all worked up over bullshit)

[WHAT?]

Hey, I take offense to that comment!!......... Just kidding!

I love them too. Right wing, or left! Where are our (human) sense of humor? Some people are sooo serious they can't brush off anything.

Should be fun to see how it pans out!

However one should be careful when desecrating another religion directly- for there are those who take things so serious, they will hunt you down, and.....???
Hope that never happens, but you know somethin' will be happening, hence the fun!

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I heard today that many Muslims in the Middle East havent even seen the pictures and are getting all upset about nothing really. Some local news paper in Israel also printed the pics to show the population. This is just silly all this is happening. I mean a video where a captive gets decapitated is a million times worse and horrific than this.

[jkrzok]

I feel a sudden overwhelming need to buy something Danish.

All this just goes to show how different these two worlds are.

I just hope Western Europe doesn't appease Islamic extremism. Make no mistake,this is an attack on our vaules expressed by our right to free expression. Our values are worth fighting for.

[WHAT?]

Oil money at work!!
This is outside... in the desert.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1012062757.jpg&s=x12
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1012070856.jpg&s=x12
This is inside!
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1012081735.jpg&s=x12
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1012083745.jpg&s=x12
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1012085998.jpg&s=x12

[idefiXX]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,574195,00.jpg
The first box says : this one is rassism
The second box says : this one is anti-semitism
The las box says : this one is freedom of speech

[jkrzok]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,574195,00.jpg
The first box says : this one is rassism
The second box says : this one is anti-semitism
The las box says : this one is freedom of speech

The difference is that the West doesn't launch boycotts and demand governmental apologies. Nor do we threaten to blow things up if they don't apologize.

We might not like the first two instances but we do recognize a right to say them.

[idefiXX]

The difference is that the West doesn't launch boycotts and demand governmental apologies. Nor do we threaten to blow things up if they don't apologize.

We might not like the first two instances but we do recognize a right to say them.

so what happened after Ahmadineschad talked about zionism and the holocaust ??
not that i agree with him, oh no, i just try to understand their way of thinking...

[idefiXX]

oh, if someone wants to see the caricatures :
here they are (http://www.stefan-herre.de/mohammed_karikaturen.jpg)

[WHAT?]

IDE... Thank:silly: you!!!!!! Glad you posted these!

Oh and Rory.... good to see the mutt back again! err Scottish Terrier.;)

:cheerful: jkrzok,.....so true!!

[acushla]

We can't draw a picture of Mohammad with a turban shaped as a bomb...but you can physically burn our flag.

Sounds fair to me.

[acushla]

Came across this from the Washington Post...

Clash Over Cartoons Is a Caricature Of Civilization

By Philip Kennicott
Washington Post Staff WriterSaturday, February 4, 2006; Page C01

No serious American newspaper would commission images of Jesus that were solely designed to offend Christians. And if one did, the reaction would be swift and certain. Politicians would take to the floors of Congress and call down thunder on the malefactors. Some Christians would react with fury and boycotts and flaming e-mails that couldn't be printed in a family newspaper; others would react with sadness, prayer and earnest letters to the editor. There would be mayhem, though it is unlikely that semiautomatic weapons would be brandished in the streets. Fortunately, it's not likely to happen, because good newspapers are governed, in their use of images, by the basic principle of news value .

I find it patently flawed...one only has to consider 'South Park' or 'Rescue Me' to see the error. Granted, these images are not from newspapers...but I don't consider that to be a problem.

For the whole artice go here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/03/AR2006020302974.html

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Looks like New Zealand is joining the party of publishing the 'offending' pictures in two news papers, to protect the right to free speech. Here (http://www.nu.nl/news/667927/24/Kranten_Nieuw-Zeeland_drukken_ook_spotprenten_af.html) is my news source but it's in dutch so you'll just have to hunt for an english source yourself ;) Indonesia, being 90-99% Islamitic, has declared disgust against worldwide publishing of these pics.

[WHAT?]

:devil:'s Advocate

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Lest we not forget the burning of the Danish and Norwegian Embassy's in Syria...

[Neo]

Jesus had a sense of humour, he laughed, drank, partied with his disciples, why the fuck can't these muslim people lighten the fuck up!? Muhammad is nothing, he never cured the sick and he's not the Son of God. Maybe they should focus and look to Christ and give up their violent ways. Yeah, like that's ever gonna happen. :cross-eye

In North America we use Jesus in all sorts of comedy and parodies, (see: south park for one example), heck there was a picture or painting several years ago of the crucifixation scene that was soaked in urine. It was called the "Piss Christ", why weren't us Christians running into the streets and firing our guns when those things happened???

Get a fuckin' sense of humour and lighten up Muslims.
Sheesh you people scare me with your brain dead demonic mentality. :cry:

[Todd The Kiwi]

ha ha go angus
i still haven't seen this cartoon :P
(unless it's one of those up there and i missed it...)

[acushla]

In North America we use Jesus in all sorts of comedy and parodies, (see: south park for one example), heck there was a picture or painting several years ago of the crucifixation scene that was soaked in urine.
I do not condone the actions of the Muslims...but it does give pause for thought of how we in the 'West' really do not hold anything sacred...and therefore are somewhat bewildered by all the fuss.

I do think it was insensitive of newspapers continuing to publish the images after they knew of the effect that it had on Muslims. It shows an insensitivity that borders on aggression...sort of like giving them the finger.

Mohammed is considered by Muslims to be the last prophet...a linage that traces it's roots to Adam and followed through to Moses, Abraham (the father of Islam), Jesus and finally, Mohammed. According to Muslims God choose Mohammed to dictate the Koran ...a book that all Muslims are taught is perfect and must not be questioned ever. It is God's teachings as to how to live your live...and is central to the faith. One of the things stated in the book is that no imagery of Mohammed must ever be made...somewhat similiar to the Jews who must never write God's name.

I think it arrogant to judge according to our own beliefs. It is the beginning of growth to realize that others may feel differently from us and rather than mock them and ask 'Why aren't they like us?'...perhaps it might be better to learn to respect other's beliefs, regardless of what we might persoanally think about it.

As we would expect respect for our beliefs.

[Shewolf]

Bah, i saw this on the news last night with the reporter attempting to justify the bloody outrageous protests going on in London.

I say tell them all to piss off and learn what humor is. Nothing but but bloody trouble lately these people.

[Willow of Oz]

heck there was a picture or painting several years ago of the crucifixation scene that was soaked in urine. It was called the "Piss Christ", why weren't us Christians running into the streets and firing our guns when those things happened???

Funny you should mention that. In Australia the christian church attempted to stop the exhibition. They failed. Later on it incited violence against the art and threats to the artist and was eventually ended.

[rorythedog]

Perhaps unbelievably, I agree 100% with Acushla on this. Maybe if we hadn't been attacking them all for the last 30 years they might have let this go. As it is, it's just more fuel on the fire.

I don't find the cartoons funny, but I would defend their right to publish them. I just would rather they hadn't.

And Neo, you are beginning to sound just like 'one of them'.

[WHAT?]

Acushla, As true as that statement, some of us (at least me) here know though, that it's not a direct knock again Mohammed himself through those cartoons. But against what the extremist think (believe) and interpret the sayings of Mohammed to mean! Though the real slap I guess that current Muslins are saying is just the images themselves are bad in any light! Right? not what they depict? ...Odd! I'll understand someday~
Odd too that Rory agrees with D1 on something!!~

[jkrzok]

As for Christians being a bit more tolerant...

Aside from the occasional health clinic bombing or doctor assassination, yes Christians are more tolerant.

Oh, and when a Christian leader calls for the assassination of a foreign leader.

And that whole "Book of Daniel" thing.

And the Britney Spears appearence on "Will and Grace".

And speaking as a secular humanist, I can personally vouch for the tolerance of Christians when they learn of my philosophical views. It seems that merely telling me I'm going to hell isn't enough anymore; ensuring that I know what hell feels like through verbal, emotional and even physical assault, well I guess that's how Christians show their love. Is that what Jesus would do?


For our foreign readers: "The Book of Daniel" was a short-lived TV series featuring a drug abusing Christian minister who saw and talked to Jesus (I thought that was called 'prayer'). Protests and boycotts were launched even before a single episode was aired. Because Christians are so open minded.

In the Britney Spears appearance on "Will and Grace" she is slated to appear as a TV chef in a TV talk show segment entitled "Cruci-fixins". Again, protests are ringing out across the land, even though this episode hasn't even been filmed yet. Heck, I believe the episode isn't even written yet. But again, open minded Christians are all for seing the episode before commenting. Ha.

[acushla]

Acushla, As true as that statement, some of us (at least me) here know though, that it's not a direct knock again Mohammed himself through those cartoons. But against what the extremist think (believe) and interpret the sayings of Mohammed to mean! Though the real slap I guess that current Muslins are saying is just the images themselves are bad in any light! Right? not what they depict? ...Odd! I'll understand someday~
Odd too that Rory agrees with D1 on something!!~

Yes...my understanding is that any depiction of Mohammed is considered blasphemous. That would include his saving a baby from the jaws of a lion.

rorythedoog...indeed, February 5th, 2006, will forever be celebrated for the meeting of two minds who realized they had more in common than previously believed. I'm not certain how this works...either you should be very, very worried or I should be pinching myself to make sure I am actually awake! Cheers mate!:beer:

[acushla]

As for Christians being a bit more tolerant...

...speaking as a secular humanist, I can personally vouch for the tolerance of Christians when they learn of my philosophical views. It seems that merely telling me I'm going to hell isn't enough anymore; ensuring that I know what hell feels like through verbal, emotional and even physical assault, well I guess that's how Christians show their love.Is that what Jesus would do?
It all becomes so tiresome and depressing...if only people whould behave the way I want them to this world would be a much better place!:bulb: ;)

[Tokelil]

The drawings isn't meant to be humour. They were made as protest against the threats that were toward the authors of some prior art. (Some drawings was made for a child book or something)

Really bad how this has developed with the burnings of two embassies. :depressed

[idefiXX]

this develops towards a cultural-war, west vs. mid-east.
this problem is made by the europeans a long time ago since they colonized and splitted which lived together in peace. (persia, some countries and tribes in africa...)
now the hate which was always there emerges. the cartoons are only the symbol for a continent (europe) which destroyed the balance of powers in the mid-east.

[Neo]

And Neo, you are beginning to sound just like 'one of them'.
EDITED OUT CAUSE I'M PISSED OFF.

[rorythedog]

EDITED OUT CAUSE I'M PISSED OFF.

Just as well you did edit this post. Maybe you could bomb some sense into them, moron.

[Neo]

... moron ¿ You're callin' me a moron ?? wow... ! :biggrin:
Why don't you go make love to a muslim. :devil:

[rorythedog]

And you wonder why "they" hate you?

[Neo]

If I went there "in peace" I would be kidnapped. Please tell me what the reporters and peace workers ever done to deserve being kidnapped and having their heads cut off???

[rorythedog]

If I went there "in peace" I would be kidnapped. Please tell me what the reporters and peace workers ever done to deserve being kidnapped and having their heads cut off???

The reporters and peace workers are there because your damned army is there! Is there something difficult about 2 +2?

[Neo]

It's not my army, my country didn't back that war, they just sent peace keeping and aid in terms of army as far as I know! I don't think there is anything wrong with taking out Saddam, with him those people were in WORSE shape, they had NO VOICE. Now, they have some hope for the future.

[idefiXX]

It's not my army, my country didn't back that war, they just sent peace keeping and aid in terms of army as far as I know! I don't think there is anything wrong with taking out Saddam, with him those people were in WORSE shape, they had NO VOICE. Now, they have some hope for the future.
At least they lived safer with Saddam...

[Neo]

It's a human rights issue, they had no rights! Not to mention those that were starving and dying! There may have been "some" order but for the most part it was no place to live. I don't think it would be healthy to leave Saddam in power either considering how brutal he is, dictators like that should not be in power. He was a threat to the world, and yes even without those WMD's, he could and would have done something and no doubt helped the terrorst cause.

[rorythedog]

It's not my army, my country didn't back that war, they just sent peace keeping and aid in terms of army as far as I know! I don't think there is anything wrong with taking out Saddam, with him those people were in WORSE shape, they had NO VOICE. Now, they have some hope for the future.

It doesn't matter whether you consider Hussein to have been a viable target, fact is the invasion WAS ILLEGAL!

Believe you me, there are a few laws I'd like to break but I know my place.

Sorry about confusing your Nationality, talk like that makes it an easy mistake to make. There must be some other common factor between what you said and some of the other rhetoric spouted around here. Now what could it be?

We need the flags back!

[idefiXX]

It's a human rights issue,
Really ??
they had no rights!
Agreed.
Not to mention those that were starving and dying!
And those who are starving and dying now ??
There may have been "some" order but for the most part it was no place to live. I don't think it would be healthy to leave Saddam in power either considering how brutal he is, dictators like that should not be in power.
Well, but was a war needed ?? And not healthy to whom ?? To the world ??
He was a threat to the world,
No, he wasn't.
and yes even without those WMD's, he could and would have done something and no doubt helped the terrorst cause.
There are that many terrorists in Iraq since the US are there. And what do you mean by something ??

[Willow of Oz]

For our foreign readers: "The Book of Daniel" was a short-lived TV series featuring a drug abusing Christian minister who saw and talked to Jesus

Thanks for the heads up. The synopsis I read sounded a little more ... boring.

[Willow of Oz]

Believe you me, there are a few laws I'd like to break but I know my place.

Consider, if you will...

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Question: is Rory a reasonable man?
Question: is Sudsy a reasonable man?

[rorythedog]

Consider, if you will...

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Question: is Rory a reasonable man?
Question: is Sudsy a reasonable man?

This is a valid point. You're right. I can't help myself though. It's what makes me tick. :paranoid:

[Roj]

It doesn't matter whether you consider Hussein to have been a viable target, fact is the invasion WAS ILLEGAL!

It was clearly illegal, the charges were trumped up and remain unsupportable and the whole thing was a media circus.

It did achieve the desired objective - it got a despot re-elected.

[madjo]

Two things..
1) Canada did not condone the course of action done by America, on the topic of invading Iraq, in actuality they didn't participate... but this thread wasn't about Iraq.. it was about the cartoons made by some Danish newspaper supposedly about Mohammed.

2) I find it intriguing (sp?) that when the cartoons ran first, no-one got aroused by it. There was no wave of anger then (september or october 2005).
It was only after a Danish Imam took those cartoons with him to the Middle-east (after their second running this year) that the shit began to hit the fan.
Another thing, I heard on the BBC World service, that Denmark is normally a very liberal and open society, little or no xeno-phobia. But that got forgotten during the whole row.
Also, Buddha was depicted in a weird and comical way (no I do not have a link to it, sadly), and the buddhists didn't go up in arms.
And Jesus was also charicaturized (sp?) and no extremist christian took up the arms to fight a holy war with Denmark.

I just wish the people in the Middle-East would grow some sense of humour (though I did not think those cartoons as funny, in fact it didn't do much for me), a sense of selfworth, and some common sense. Because that is IMO highly lacking in that region of the world.

Oh and one other thing :) Who exactly knows how Mohammed looked like? The cartoon looks like a bearded person with a bomb as a turban... It could have been Bin Laden, or Santa Claus (who dyed his hair) or anyone else with a beard. I know the bomb had an islamic or arabic symbol on it, which I couldn't read, but what does that say?

[rorythedog]

Here's the thing though. These recent riots and the frankly disgraceful burning of the various Scandinavian Embassies is having an incredible effect. I myself will fight over this. No-one has the right to shut me up. How dare they! I believe very strongly in free speech, as some of you will be aware. I think the publishing of these images was idiotic, but I'll defend the right to be an idiot. Nobody has any right to impose their will on others.

My wife and I have just watched a BBC Newsnight discussion where the defender of these radicals was allowed to preach utter nonsense! It was suggested to him that if he was so unhappy in the UK that maybe he should leave. He replied that it was not 'our' country (meaning white presumably) and that the whole world was Allah's! That he will not be happy until the whole world is Muslim! He went on to call for the beheading of anyone who betrays Allah. How is this acceptable?

It was suggested to me earlier today by one of our Antipodean brethren that perhaps there was no point in fighting a war that couldn't be won. 'Pissin' in the wind' if you like. He's right. I can't change things in Iraq. But Hell will freeze over before anyone marches into my country and tells me how to run my life!

Damn! This gets me really angry! Please don't take this as a racist outburst. It's far more than that. These psychos have turned my beliefs upside down. It would be wise of their brothers to calm them down because I am by no means their biggest worry.

I've got more but I'm going for a walk round the garden to chill a bit.

Rant over. :cool:

P.s. Don't all these bastards know the dog is trying to give up smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roj]

You can't argue with the little Right Wingers. In the case of this one, either he spouts the rhetoric on cue without considering what it is he's saying or worse yet is a True Believer who actually buys into the bullshit. In either case, he's not worth arguing with because his "points" are easily refutable by any thinking individual who gives even a cursory glance at the Facts (you know, the ones the UN inspectors kept getting told to keep quiet about).

Now, it's perfectly true that the Iraquis were being ruled by a barbaric despot. However, that doesn't give ANY nation the right to go tromping into a country waving a flag and chanting empty slogans about so-called "Democracy" (I keep remembering another "invasion": Grenada). And it's funny how the target was so carefully picked for weakness - the response to North Korea (a REAL threat) was positively simpering and that Bad Boy who really DOES have nukeswas conspicuously left alone. It would appear that the schoolyard bully knows who NOT to pick on because he'll get his ass wiped with the playground real estate. We won't even begin to discuss the carefully staged media circus designed to distract the public from a pathetic domestic policy, the obvious and blatant lack of proof of any "Weepons of Mess Distraction" and the posturing designed to obfuscate the fact that America really was quite helpless and didn't know how to deal with terrorism. There's no shame in that - no one does but they need to take a hint that a show of the guns and a puffing up of the chest ain't gonna do it in this day and age.

The other big clue? Israel wasn't doing anything about the so-called weapons. A number of years ago, that state received what it considered positive intel that one of its neighbours was on the vergge of achieving a certain level of death-dealing proficiency (they were gonna get nukes). The Israelis launched a bombing strike and Took Out The Installation. Whent he rest of the planet went goggle-eyed (including the U.S.) they shrigged it off with a "My Bad - Mea Culpa" and moved on. Had there been any REAL threat of Saddam doing anything remotely unpleasant, he wouldn't be here today to stand trial - period.

unfortunately our Right Wingclipped friend is too young to remember that and has a rather foreshortened view of the Big Picture. He does have terrific rhetoric though.

As far as this country is concerned, we as Canadians generally for the most part keep cooler heads, evaluate FACTS (thus dispelling FICTION) and in general behave like good neighbours to the rest of the planet rather than a wannabe police force. We don't deal in idle conjecture (he could have / might have / would have rubbish) and the national mindset is not to indulge int he kind of simplistic view seen here.

That's A Good Thing.

[Roj]

it was about the cartoons made by some Danish newspaper supposedly about Mohammed.

The cartoons were in poor taste.

No one likes their religion being made fun of - the fanaticism and fervor that are the nature of the beast in general have a tendency to provoke that kind of reaction to that sort of thing.

Big Fat Honking Hairy Deal.

There have been lots of derogatory things said about the Pope, Buddha and a host of other religious figures. Fortunately, the adherents of those religions didn't get their panties in a bunch and threaten Holy War or anything adolescent like that.

In short, the newspapers have a right to print whatever the Fruitloops - Under - Caramel - Koffeecrisp they want.

That's what true freedom of speech is all about and I have GREAT pity for those who are unable to recognise that.

Demz mi 2 sents - I'm dun wid dis tred.

[Roj]

Jesus had a sense of humour, he laughed, drank, partied with his disciples, why the fuck can't these muslim people lighten the fuck up!? Muhammad is nothing, he never cured the sick and he's not the Son of God. Maybe they should focus and look to Christ and give up their violent ways. Yeah, like that's ever gonna happen. :cross-eye
Two things:

1) langeuage. This is a family forum.

2) Comments like "Mohammed is nothing" are not welcome here. Keep your narrowmindedness and bigotry to yourself.

You've finally managed to make it to that elite list of people who are on my radar - watch your footing.

'nuff said.

[Neo]

Two things:

1) langeuage. This is a family forum.

2) Comments like "Mohammed is nothing" are not welcome here. Keep your narrowmindedness and bigotry to yourself.

You've finally managed to make it to that elite list of people who are on my radar.

'nuff said.
1) You spelled language wrong! :cheeky:

2) Nice to know freedom of speech exists here!!! :cheeky:
Where are we The China Republic of Quinnware? Incredible.

If something offends one of the power hungry "mods" they can choose who they want to attack or have banned. If this is how the forum works here, I'll just leave now... I don't need this crap.

The funniest thing here is that I bet anything if another member of the forum said something like "Jesus is nothing" they would not be warned or even "the Bible is a fantasy" which rorythedog made a comment on once.... just blows my mind!!

It's ok to be anti-Christian here!! If you're not gonna allow someone to say something about Mohammad, then don't allow Christ or the Bible to be talked down too!!!

What a lame double standard we have here!

[Neo]

I just wish the people in the Middle-East would grow some sense of humour (though I did not think those cartoons as funny, in fact it didn't do much for me), a sense of selfworth, and some common sense. Because that is IMO highly lacking in that region of the world.
Amen, madjo. I couldn't agree more... these people are living in the year 1100, they simply havent evolved with the rest of the world. This may be my last post here if the lovely Roj decides to kick me out. It's been fun, I love all of of you, even rorythedog.

[jawpr]

[QUOTE=Roj]Two things:

1) langeuage. This is a family forum.

2) Comments like "Mohammed is nothing" are not welcome here. Keep your narrowmindedness and bigotry to yourself.


I sure wish the same rules applied to Roj that applies to everyone else.
That would make the forum a whole lot nicer place to visit.:laugh:

[Roj]

[quote=Roj]Two things:

1) langeuage. This is a family forum.

2) Comments like "Mohammed is nothing" are not welcome here. Keep your narrowmindedness and bigotry to yourself.


I sure wish the same rules applied to Roj that applies to everyone else.
That would make the forum a whole lot nicer place to visit.:laugh:
The day you catch me swearing like a trooper on this board and vehemently cursing at a religion and its adherents with four letter words, you'll have cause to comment.

Until then, might I suggest that you stop embarassing yourself with your open display of unwarranted bitterness.

[Roj]

What a lame double standard we have here!

You've stirred the pot ever since you arrived here. From a purely observational standpoint, you claim to be Christian yet your every performance (particularly in this thread) screams an attitude counter to what you profess to stand for. You should be ashamed of yourself.

One more bit of histrionics out of you and you're done.

Last warning.

[acushla]

Amen, madjo. I couldn't agree more... these people are living in the year 1100, they simply haven't evolved with the rest of the world. This may be my last post here if the lovely Roj decides to kick me out. It's been fun, I love all of of you, even rorythedog.

You made some points on the 'freedom of speech' issue...and to be honest your comments were a pleasant surprise.

For myself I am going to say that whatever views you hold are one thing...how you express those views is another thing...if you see where I'm going.

IMHO too often your views come across as irrational, hysterical rants...and then you compound the problem by using profane language which, as Roj correctly points out. is not acceptable in a family forum. It surprises me that you, as a admitted Christian, choose to use such language. Search your heart Neo...you know I'm right.

Different ideas and different points of view are welcome...but only as a dialogue...never as preaching.

I hope you stay...but in order to do that you will have to put forth effort and thought to express yourself better than you do now.

[rorythedog]

1) You spelled language wrong! :cheeky:

2) Nice to know freedom of speech exists here!!! :cheeky:
Where are we The China Republic of Quinnware? Incredible.

If something offends one of the power hungry "mods" they can choose who they want to attack or have banned. If this is how the forum works here, I'll just leave now... I don't need this crap.

The funniest thing here is that I bet anything if another member of the forum said something like "Jesus is nothing" they would not be warned or even "the Bible is a fantasy" which rorythedog made a comment on once.... just blows my mind!!

It's ok to be anti-Christian here!! If you're not gonna allow someone to say something about Mohammad, then don't allow Christ or the Bible to be talked down too!!!

What a lame double standard we have here!

Anything I've ever said about Christianity applies equally to any other religion you care to mention. With the possible exception of Buddhism. I merely directed it at Christianity because I happened to be talking to a Christian. Any organised religion is a farce. As if you can somehow organise a feeling which some hold deep inside. The only possible reasons for organized religion in the 21st century are control and money. I can see no other.

[Neo]

Thanks acushla, you're right man.

I'm gonna put Roj on ignore now, since he done the same to me. :silly:

[rorythedog]

To follow the advice of my new Antipodean Mentor, don't you guys think we should all maybe just chill a bit? This is fun but unwinable. We're argueing about ideas here. Pointless. We can discuss ideas but they can't rationally be argued. The religious will never accept they could be wrong, and the humanists will never get the chance to prove they're right. Status Quo.

I'm giving up giving up smoking and I'm currently rolling a fatty. Join me if you will, if only spiritually. :silly: :silly: :silly:

[Roj]

Thanks acushla, you're right man.

I'm gonna put Roj on ignore now, since he done the same to me. :silly:
Your choice but you should be aware that I've never put anyone on ignore on a forum.

[rorythedog]

Your choice but you should be aware that I've never put anyone on ignore on a forum.

Man, I have. :evil: :evolved: :evil:

[Neo]

OK, I'll take you off ignore now. :silly:

[acushla]

Great...now if we could all just join hands in a circle...Kumba Ya...everybody...

[rorythedog]

Works for me. Can you feel the love...:cool:

[Roj]

Man, I have. :evil: :evolved: :evil:
On Usenet, yes. But that's a medium where you fully have the advantage of time to decide what you're writing, so if you choose to make an ass of yourself it's entirely on you. Forums are more immediate and anyone can make a mistake and we all do.

As I said, I've never blocked anyone.

[Roj]

Great...now if we could all just join hands in a circle...Kumba Ya...everybody...
Now I REALLY need a glass of Appleton Estate Special...

Seriously though Neo, I raised some points in that PM you need to consider as much as I need to consider not being so "hard line". Rory's last post also has some fine writ.

[acushla]

Your choice but you should be aware that I've never put anyone on ignore on a forum.

...and you are...?

[Neo]

I've been thinking and I want to apologize to those in this thread. I love being here, I know I can stir up crap from time to time but that's my immaturity level and I need to work on it. I'm a good guy generally and if we met outside of a "forum" I'm sure you'd agree and we'd all have fun! I love you guys and QMP, let's all have a big hug!!! :silly:

[rorythedog]

I've been thinking and I want to apologize to those in this thread. I love being here, I know I can stir up crap from time to time but that's my immaturity level and I need to work on it. I'm a good guy generally and if we met outside of a "forum" I'm sure you'd agree and we'd all have fun! I love you guys and QMP, let's all have a big hug!!! :silly:

Bastard!!!
















































Just kidding. You're cool with me man. Nae worries. :beer:

[Roj]

...and you are...?
"I am the Right hand of vengeance
And the last living thing that you are ever going to see.

God sent me."

Some may recognize that quote...

[Roj]

I've been thinking and I want to apologize to those in this thread. I love being here, I know I can stir up crap from time to time but that's my immaturity level and I need to work on it. I'm a good guy generally and if we met outside of a "forum" I'm sure you'd agree and we'd all have fun! I love you guys and QMP, let's all have a big hug!!! :silly:
Peace. Now I can go to bed and get some sleep.

[Todd The Kiwi]

the roj mod could always lock this mutha...
i think for the sake of continuity he doesn't.

my mum always said
"if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

[acushla]

I've been thinking and I want to apologize to those in this thread. I love being here, I know I can stir up crap from time to time but that's my immaturity level and I need to work on it. I'm a good guy generally and if we met outside of a "forum" I'm sure you'd agree and we'd all have fun! I love you guys and QMP, let's all have a big hug!!! :silly:


Thank you Neo, it takes a very BIG man to write what you did and I have a tremendous amount of respect for you that you were able to humble yourself and acknowledge those character traits that need some tweaking..

Printing out a copy of your apology and taping it to your monitor would provide a constant reminder of who you want to be viewed as in this forum...a family member working with us, not against us.

I think that one motivating factor to being a contributing member of Quintessential forum is not only that we can share how we view the world but, more importantly, that we are interested in how others view the same world so we can learn about different perspectives. Sometimes we can come to see how another has arrived at their understanding without feeling the need to adopt it as our own. Sometimes many divergent views can all be 'right'.

I appreciate the fact that it will be very difficult, at first, for you to refrain from slipping into that type of rhetoric, and we will be all over you when you do, so be prepared!!! Understand one thing...when you are 'jumped on', no matter how it may sound to you, it is done by people who genuinely care about you and are frustrated and dismayed by the posts of a 'brother' who should take a little more time to think before he writes.

Rorythedog really summed it up best when he indicated that, as arguments...it is a lost cause if anybody thinks they are going to 'win'..but as discussions, whose roots are firmly planted in 'fun',..then a lot of good dialogue and exchange of ideas can take place between people who enjoy spending part of their time talking with others throughout the world. Think about it...where else do any of us have this opportunity except through the Internet.

Now if we could only get a Quintessential user from China. I have some things I;d like to share with that member.

[rorythedog]

Calling Shaohao! Calling Shaohao! :silly:

[acushla]

Calling Shaohao! Calling Shaohao! :silly:
...been a long time, a long time, a very long, long, long time...since I've seen that name.

[Tokelil]

...been a long time, a long time, a very long, long, long time...since I've seen that name.He posted yesterday...

[rorythedog]

He only posts where it matters...

[BALTY]

Don't know if I'm comfortable with this ... new found comradery! :ermm:
Something about stirrin' it up boys!! :reallymad :evil:
You party poopers! :silly:

[acushla]

He posted yesterday...
I'm betting he posted in the upper regions of the woods. A place I very seldom set foot in.

[Neo]

I'm gonna steer this thread back on to it's original highway...

Look here -> http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

Word of the Day: HYPOCRITES ? :disappoin :mad:

[acushla]

I'm gonna steer this thread back on to it's original highway...

Look here -> http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

Word of the Day: HYPOCRITES ? :disappoin :mad:
Thanks Neo...from a certain perspective it illustrates the depths of the pure hate that resides in that region.

Gives credence to my earlier statement...'...anybody who thinks this problem is going away with a few signatures on a piece of paper is gravely mistaken.'

[idefiXX]

It's cynical that many jews (mostly Ariel Sharon) are shown with a swastika... :depressed
But this also shows, that there is the necessity of better education and non-opinion-forming medias.

[acushla]

It's cynical that many jews (mostly Ariel Sharon) are shown with a swastika... :depressed
But this also shows, that there is the necessity of better education and non-opinion-forming medias.
'Non-opinion-forming medias'...what a curious statement.

Care to elaborate?:foureyes: :puzzled:

[madjo]

'Non-opinion-forming medias'...what a curious statement.

Care to elaborate?:foureyes: :puzzled:
I agree with idefixx, the media should just present us facts, not fiction nor opinion. Opinions should be in columns, not in articles.

[acushla]

I agree with idefixx, the media should just present us facts, not fiction nor opinion. Opinions should be in columns, not in articles.
I couldn't agree with you more...although it becomes painfully obvious that even 'presenting of the facts' is influenced by where you are standing while viewing those facts. If you doubt this pick any current story concerning the Middle East and read 10 different newspaper accounts of that story...5 from the Western Press and 5 from the Middle Eastern press. (Count Israel as Western Press.) You'll quickly see what I mean.

idefixx comment was a little to ambiguous for me and I really couldn't understand quite what he meant. On first reading it seemed he might have referring to newspapers reporting (and showing) cartoons about Jews and the Holocaust. (I can't believe I just wrote that last sentence.) being submitted to the Iranian Government.

Which in and of itself is simply 'reporting news'. I suppose the position put forward by the owners of the newspapers is that whatever happens as a result of 'reporting those facts' is none of their concern.

I think they are wrong.

[idefiXX]

idefixx comment was a little to ambiguous for me and I really couldn't understand quite what he meant.
Read the first line of my signature :knocked-o Nothing was meant to be ambiguous ( i first had to translate this word with altavista to understand it... :confused: )
On first reading it seemed he might have referring to newspapers reporting (and showing) cartoons about Jews and the Holocaust. (I can't believe I just wrote that last sentence.) being submitted to the Iranian Government.
I was referring to the cartoons of Neo's post.
I must say, it's really hard for me to understand your post... :normal: (No offense)

[rorythedog]

It's not cynical from a Palestinian perspective. Ariel Sharon should have been hauled off to the Hague long ago for his military persecution of the Palestinians.

Just trying to offer some balance here.

[Matt]

Glad to see you guys got this thread back on track. With so much nastyness in the world its good to know you can count on the quinnware forumers to stay civil!

[rorythedog]

Glad to see you guys got this thread back on track. With so much nastyness in the world its good to know you can count on the quinnware forumers to stay civil!


Who's this guy?!

It's ForumITES! I..T..E..S Goddamit! Jeez! :ninja:

[madjo]

Who's this guy?!

It's ForumITES! I..T..E..S Goddamit! Jeez! :ninja:
I hate bugs... termites and forumites alike :) :silly:

though stalagmites are okay (which aren't bugs, but the standing 'statues' of dried-up calcium (and other minerals, leftovers from the water seeping from the soil) in caves)

okay, sorry, I'm rambling here... is that civil? :)

[WHAT?]

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm
So, this gets me back to the question.... (Or statement). It's all about Mohammed himself being in the PICs, and not the content! ....?...! ....?..!

and.... How dare they snake up my flag!!!!!

[idefiXX]

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm
So, this gets me back to the question.... (Or statement). It's all about Mohammed himself being in the PICs, and not the content! ....?...! ....?..!

and.... How dare they snake up my flag!!!!!
Neo posted this link already. But these pictures are not the ones which caused so much trouble. ( or did i missunderstand what you meant to say ??....!!!....???? :cyclops: )

[WHAT?]

ya, misunderstood me. But people do all the time! Anyway, that link was re-posted just to show what I was referring to. That's OK though~
But I still haven't really gotten confirmation from any of you as to what you think. Am I right, to assume, that the Muslim world wouldn't be up in arms if it were anybody else in the muslin world depicted in these cartoons but Mohammed?
I guess I'm to add that the Arab catoons about Jews, America, etc. is the same then? In each one of your minds I mean?
Well, I think it is personally... But what do you think THEY think. I think THEY think that it's not the samething!
I'm just trying to get it straight. Hence the question.
Again, it's all about Mohammed (not Islam)) on defense. Right? Wrong?

[acushla]

Read the first line of my signature :knocked-o Nothing was meant to be ambiguous ( i first had to translate this word with altavista to understand it... :confused: )

I was referring to the cartoons of Neo's post.
I must say, it's really hard for me to understand your post... :normal: (No offense)

ambiguous having or expressing more than one possible meaning, sometimes intentionally

I didn't mean to imply that you were intentionally being ambiguous...in fact I knew you weren't...I just wasn't clear as to exactly what you meant...I suppose because I don't believe it is possible for any media to be without bias...intentional or not.

I will speculate that when you say it is difficult for you to understand my post...you are referring to my feeling that the press has to assume some responsibility as to what and how the news is reported. French newspapers (and others) who continue to publish the 'cartoons' after the fact, who know that this is akin to throwing gasoline on a fire, point to how it is their right under 'free speech' to do so. Well, to me, this is just wrong and I wish there was a law which provided for jail term for such actions

How sad if the next world war can be traced back to 'cartoons'.

[acushla]

okay, sorry, I'm rambling here... is that civil? :)
Yes...it is civil...but you're in the wrong thread. Rambling is over in 'QMP Development'

[jkrzok]

Again, it's all about Mohammed (not Islam)) on defense. Right? Wrong?

Islam does not allow any sort of physical representation of Allah.

As for depictions of Mohammed, while it isn't canon, there is also a long, deeply held tradition of not depicting the Prophet.

[acushla]

Again, it's all about Mohammed (not Islam)) on defense. Right? Wrong?
I have a friend who is Islamic...in fact he invited me to attend prayers in a Mosque with him. As I've attended 'services' in virtually every religion...I felt being invited to participate in a Mosque would be an interesting experience. Which it most definitely was. Partly because in a part of town with numerous Churches which I suspect would be lucky to have 25 in the congregation...there were over 500 men crammed in a space which was built for 350 men.

He explained to me that the cartoons are an affront to Islam as all Muslims follow the Koran...the word of God given to the prophet Mohammed.

An interesting fact that seems to have been (conveniently?) overlooked in this story is the fact that there are many Islamic depictions of Mohammed taken throughout the ages. Here's the link...but I warn you...the page has been loading very slowly because of the number of people viewing it.

Islamic Depictions of Mohammed in Full

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/

[rorythedog]

These cartoons in the Danish press weren't the ones that kicked this all off. They were first printed months ago with no furore. however just recently an Iman from Danmark took these and other far more disgusting cartoons (portraying paedoplilia and Mohammed) on a whistle stop tour of certain middle-eastern states. That's when the shit hit the fan. The Iman was on the radio today attempting to justify this and failing miserably.

There are extremes in all walks of life. Any creed, colour or religion.

As for the French magazines who are publishing ad infinitum? Well it's unfortunate but their President is on record for years as wanting more state control of the media. This is an internal thing in France that has spilled over into the wider world. The French aren't stupid and they can see their Government maneouvering this into position for a clampdown.

the Iman, the French President and GW are all doing the same thing here. Trying to manipulate the media - and therefore peoples perceptions - for their own greedy purposes.

[idefiXX]

[B]I will speculate that when you say it is difficult for you to understand my post...you are referring to my feeling that the press has to assume some responsibility as to
.
.
.
Thanks, this time it was much easier. After reading your post twice (what i do with almost every post) i perfectly understood what you meant :)
As for the responsibility and sensibility of the western press i totally agree with you. after discussing this subject over and over again i finally took one of those cartoons i had uploaded on my website back. why should we offend them although they did no harm to us (i am speaking of muslims, not islamists)

[rorythedog]

Here's an interesting news article from the BBC.

SWEDEN BREAKS RANK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4700414.stm)

[BALTY]

It's good that we have free speech here!

[BALTY]

I have a friend who is Islamic...in fact he invited me to attend prayers in a Mosque with him. As I've attended 'services' in virtually every religion...I felt being invited to participate in a Mosque would be an interesting experience. Which it most definitely was. Partly because in a part of town with numerous Churches which I suspect would be lucky to have 25 in the congregation...there were over 500 men crammed in a space which was built for 350 men.

He explained to me that the cartoons are an affront to Islam as all Muslims follow the Koran...the word of God given to the prophet Mohammed.

An interesting fact that seems to have been (conveniently?) overlooked in this story is the fact that there are many Islamic depictions of Mohammed taken throughout the ages. Here's the link...but I warn you...the page has been loading very slowly because of the number of people viewing it.

Islamic Depictions of Mohammed in Full

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/
So you are saying that it is more the "content". Not just that it's his image. Is it ALLAH's image that they say can't be displayed? Or his creations?
Well I found this.. http://www.ourdialogue.com/v1.htm ... if your willing to read a lot. Shwooo!, It's just the tip of the iceberg if you're really interested in Islamic law, and/or teachings interpretations.
Pictures are a big topic.....
Hadith - At-Tirmidhi
"On the Day of Resurrection a neck will stretch forth from Hell; it will have two eyes to see, two ears to hear, and a tongue to speak. It will say, "I have been appointed to take care of three types of people: every arrogant tyrant, every person who called on some deity other than Allaah (swt) and those who made pictures" [at-Tirmidhi stated that this hadith was saheeh - at-Takhweef min an-Naar, p.179, See also Jaami' al-Usool, 10/518, the editor said its isnaad is hasan]

[acushla]

So you are saying that it is more the "content". Not just that it's his image. Is it ALLAH's image that they say can't be displayed? Or his creations?

Actually, as usual, I really wasn't saying anything.

What I was doing is posting a link to a collection of Islamic art through the ages which pictured Muhammad.

By implication I was suggesting that there appears to be some double standard being applied when a community riots stating the cause of those riots are drawings which depict Muhammad.

The article you provided sounds interesting and I will read it (provided it is not a novel:rolleyes: ) later today when I have the time.

[Roj]

Here's an interesting news article from the BBC.

SWEDEN BREAKS RANK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4700414.stm)
Do Not Blaspheme do not blaspeheme DO NOT BLASPHEME!!!

I just couldn't resist (of course only Doctor Who fans who watched the last season will get this)...

[acushla]

Here's an interesting news article from the BBC.

SWEDEN BREAKS RANK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4700414.stm)
If it's an interesting news article from the BBC that you want, then here's a far more interesting story than one about Sweeden pulling the plug on a small group of extremists.

Bird flu hits new areas in Europe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4704046.stm

I know...threads and all that...but still....

[madjo]

Do Not Blaspheme do not blaspeheme DO NOT BLASPHEME!!!

I just couldn't resist (of course only Doctor Who fans who watched the last season will get this)...
I'm a bit puzzled by this one... which episode was that again? :)

[idefiXX]

Are you tired of all this blasphemic cartoon-trash ?? ;)
VISIT cuteoverload.com (http://cuteoverload.com/) and your life will be full of peace and love.:heart: :globe: :heart:
(sorry, a bit offtopic...)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Are you tired of all this blasphemic cartoon-trash ?? ;)
VISIT and your life will be full of peace and love.:heart: :globe: :heart:
(sorry, a bit offtopic...)

Ermm... i'll stick to neutral, thank you :)

[idefiXX]

Ermm... i'll stick to neutral, thank you :)
:ponder: :rolleyes: :paranoid: ;)

[Tokelil]

Thread resurrection... :grimreape


Just read that 60% of the Egyptian population thinks of Denmark as a hostile country, while 37% thinks (of those 60% I guess) of Denmark as a very hostile nation. :puzzled: This is in a country that didn't even run riot as far as I remember back when the cartoons was released. I wonder how many years it will take until Denmark has restored it's reputation in the east. (Okay, at least they know that there's something called Denmark now... ;))

[Roj]

Thread resurrection... :grimreape
Well, it is Samhaim.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

A lil reawakening (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6999652.stm) from the Danish cartoons depicting Muhammed the prophet. A Swedish cartoonist drew Muhammed as a dog (head with dog body) and was threatened with death by the Muslim world. He's now taken in protection to an unknown location.

[idefiXX]

As you might know I changed my mind on this issue.

YES, we have and should have free speech, free press.
NO, why would we want, just for the sake of "protecting" our free press (it should read provocating...) to insult the whole muslim community ?

There is a difference between freedom and arbitrariness. There is a difference between free press/speech and bad taste.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Bah i mean Australians are the biggest larrikins I've known. Who are the Muslims to demand that the world do as they say. That they keep their values up high in their own religion is their business but they shouldnt force it on the rest of the world with death threats. It's either all ok or none of it is.

[acushla]

Bah i mean Australians are the biggest larrikins I've known. Who are the Muslims to demand that the world do as they say. That they keep their values up high in their own religion is their business but they shouldnt force it on the rest of the world with death threats. It's either all ok or none of it is.Personally I think the Government should regulate all press. The guiding principal would be: Report truthfully and responsibly or lose your license.

Where would Paris Hilton et al be then?

[acushla]

why would we want, just for the sake of "protecting" our free press (it should read provocating...) to insult the whole muslim community ?
For FUN!!!:cool:

Let me see if I have this correct:

Publishing little pen and ink drawing of man with bomb on head: Bad

Killing man who drew little picture of man with bomb on head: Good

Newspapers around the world should print this picture on their front page every day of every week of every month of every year.

PS You better watch it idefiXX...no telling what they'd do to someone who spelt Muslim with a small 'm' Scary if you think about it...they could be outside your door even as I type.:silly:

[Tokelil]

Yey we are back at burning Danish flags again after reprinting the drawing in all Danish newspapers. (Because the Danish Security Intelligence Service stopped an attempt to kill the author of the drawings.) It was getting quite boring the last year anyway I guess...

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Yey we are back at burning Danish flags again after reprinting the drawing in all Danish newspapers. (Because the Danish Security Intelligence Service stopped an attempt to kill the author of the drawings.) It was getting quite boring the last year anyway I guess...

I say, let them print these cartoons and teach those extremist mozzies a lesson. In fact, the whole world should print them right now.

[acushla]

It was getting quite boring the last year anyway I guess...That's the spirit!!!

I'm getting tired of these people who think that they can impose upon the world whatever their values are.

You start killing people because of a 'drawing' simply illustrates just how primitive and ignorant these people are.

The fact they claim that images of Mohammad are 'blasphemous' is not supported by their own history: Mohammed Image Archive (http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/)

[idefiXX]

I don't know. Usually I would stand up for the so called "free" press. But just as I condemn the Arab press to make fun of jews in a very cheap way I am not in favor of provocating the Muslim world. We should shift our efforts towards educating the people who burn the flag right now.
Enlightment is much better than war of cultures.

[acushla]

I say, let them print these cartoons and teach those extremist mozzies a lesson. In fact, the whole world should print them right now.Exactly...if everybody and every country with a 'free press' followed your advice then they just might stop for a moment and reflect on exactly what they are doing.

...what did I just write? Sorry...lost my mind for a moment.

These people obviously don't have any intention of reaching out and, at the very least, begin a dialogue with us. I guess that's just not as much fun as killing everyone who disagrees with you and burning whatever is available to show your displeasure.

[acushla]

I don't know. Usually I would stand up for the so called "free" press. But just as I condemn the Arab press to make fun of jews in a very cheap way I am not in favor of provocating the Muslim world. We should shift our efforts towards educating the people who burn the flag right now.
Enlightment is much better than war of cultures.Your 20 today, right?

I'd love to see what you write when your 40.:)

The 'devil' extending a hand to 'teach' a people who have no desire to be taught and every desire to kill you.

You are not dealing with 'people' who are anything like the people of your own culture. This is a different breed.

You know...if they didn't behave the way they do there wouldn't be a cartoon with a bomb in place of a turban.

Please don't make the argument that these extremists are not representative of the majority of Muslims.

I have news for you...they are.

When I see Muslim's en masses stand up and condemn the actions of these fanatics then I'll start to take a different interest. All I see are Muslim's en masses sitting down and quietly cheering them on.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I'm getting tired of these people who think that they can impose upon the world whatever their values are.


This is exactly what I was thinking too. Everybody should stop bothering everybody. But some just can't relinquish that feeling of superiority over others. It starts out with simple things like saying "That band you love is bullshit" and then the other starts defending why this band is not BS. What does it even matter what someone else thinks and wants you to believe?

[idefiXX]

Your 20 today, right?

I'd love to see what you write when your 40.:)

The 'devil' extending a hand to 'teach' a people who have no desire to be taught and every desire to kill you.

You are not dealing with 'people' who are anything like the people of your own culture. This is a different breed.

You know...if they didn't behave the way they do there wouldn't be a cartoon with a bomb in place of a turban.

Please don't make the argument that these extremists are not representative of the majority of Muslims.

I have news for you...they are.

When I see Muslim's en masses stand up and condemn the actions of these fanatics then I'll start to take a different interest. All I see are Muslim's en masses sitting down and quietly cheering them on.

I don't know much about my future and I'm sure many things will change about the way I see the world. But one thing I know for sure : even with 80 I will still consider a human being as equal to another.

Have you ever thought how your life would be if you would have been born at a different place on this earth? Do you think you would be less worth born in another culture, another place?

As I said I speak out for the freedom of press, but I think the press should respect the dignity of every human being.

Why don't we use all the intelligence our "breed" has in order to build bridges between the cultures and not in order to raise the differences and gaps between us?
In my opinion we should stop talking about masses and about the "Muslim world", but talk about individuals !

[Tokelil]

As I said I speak out for the freedom of press, but I think the press should respect the dignity of every human being.That's my stance as well in most cases. I do condone that all newspapers are reprinting the drawings after the assassination planning though. (Also all those that didn't print them two years back, because they saw no reason to provoke the Muslims with them.) The press should be allowed to print what they want, but they also need to think a bit about the consequences to their words. All people in the "real world" do that when standing face to face with someone, so I'd expect the same of the written word.

[acushla]

I don't know much about my future and I'm sure many things will change about the way I see the world. But one thing I know for sure : even with 80 I will still consider a human being as equal to another.You're not on drugs, are you?

The only thing that is certain when it comes to speculating about how you will be thinking in 60 years is that you can't be certain it will be as you are thinking now. There are many poems written about this.:)

Have you ever thought how your life would be if you would have been born at a different place on this earth? Do you think you would be less worth born in another culture, another place?

Of course I have. I've also thought about how my life would be different if I knew how to throw a football better than any other man. or perhaps if I was a bank robber...or worse...a serial killer. Whatever separates one individual from another is but a microcosom of what separates one group from another. When it comes to Religion and Wars between cultures...well...there are books written about this.:bulb:

As I said I speak out for the freedom of press, but I think the press should respect the dignity of every human being.

Dignity of every human being? Does that include child molesters or the aforementioned serial killers? How about rapists...or killers who are not serial? Or those who hate you because you are the 'Devil'...or those that would stone a girl to death because she was raped by 7 men, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Oh yes...before I forget...YOU CANNOT HAVE A SENTANCE THAT BEGINS 'I SPEAK OUT FOR FREEDOM OF PRESS' followed by a 'BUT'. It's either free or it's not.:foureyes:

Why don't we use all the intelligence our "breed" has in order to build bridges between the cultures and not in order to raise the differences and gaps between us?
In my opinion we should stop talking about masses and about the "Muslim world", but talk about individuals !

Simple...because we're not that intelligent.

You cannot build bridges with people who want to kill you.

You can stop talking about 'masses' and about 'Muslim world' all you want. Doesn't change the fact that it exists.

This is what troubles me about Obama.:cool:



Where's Willow when you need him?

[acushla]

I wonder if the printing of the 'cartoons' is a form of propaganda on our side.

We print them...they go crazy and demonstrate and burn things and say things...and all the world gets to see how reactionary and ignorant and insane these people actually are...which makes going to war against them that much more attractive!:foureyes:

[Willow of Oz]

Oh yes...before I forget...YOU CANNOT HAVE A SENTANCE THAT BEGINS 'I SPEAK OUT FOR FREEDOM OF PRESS' followed by a 'BUT'. It's either free or it's not.:foureyes:
Okay, I was hesitant to cut most of what you said, because it was good stuff, but I was really only going to address this part. And I was going to say that I agree with you here, but on further thinking, it's not that I'm going to disagree with you, so much as want to clarify it. It's not like people are saying it should be free, BUT with restrictions. They're arguing it should be free, but people should think of the consequences. That's still freedom.
Ah, freedom of the press. One of the most dangerous things in the world?

[acushla]

Okay, I was hesitant to cut most of what you said, because it was good stuff, but I was really only going to address this part. And I was going to say that I agree with you here, but on further thinking, it's not that I'm going to disagree with you, so much as want to clarify it. It's not like people are saying it should be free, BUT with restrictions. They're arguing it should be free, but people should think of the consequences. That's still freedom.
Ah, freedom of the press. One of the most dangerous things in the world?The giant awakens.:silly:

I believe I know what you are saying and in a civilized society (if I may) you are absolutely correct.

It is puzzling to myself why I regard any statement that puts a 'qualification' on 'freedom'...no matter how rational...handcuffs the concept of 'freedom'.

Freedom has no qualifications...freedom has no division...freedom has no right or wrong...and so on.

Perhaps only in my little universe.:)

[Willow of Oz]

The giant awakens.:silly:

I believe I know what you are saying and in a civilized society (if I may) you are absolutely correct.

It is puzzling to myself why I regard any statement that puts a 'qualification' on 'freedom'...no matter how rational...handcuffs the concept of 'freedom'.

Freedom has no qualifications...freedom has no division...freedom has no right or wrong...and so on.

Perhaps only in my little universe.:)
.... and I'm still not disagreeing with you. But I am feeling a little funny inside ... :ponder:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

People have the freedom to publish or it is called censorship. People have the freedom to demonstrate peacefully or it is called a terrorism.

[acushla]

But I am feeling a little funny inside ... :ponder:Gee...I never realized you felt that way towards me. It's flattering...but I'm already spoken for.:silly:

[acushla]

People have the freedom to publish or it is called censorship. People have the freedom to demonstrate peacefully or it is called a terrorism.This is good Rex. Now where is it you send 'new quotes' to?:beer:

[Solon]

I'm for 100% press freedom in any circumstance. I think it can only be a good thing in so far as it increases knowledge, awareness etc...

I don't get Muslims protesting the cartoons, as I see it they should be tolerant of what the papers print just like we have to be tolerant of them going off every few hours to pray when co-workers have to keep working. It's a game of give and take and compromise.. some people want it all their own way though..

[WHAT?]

The giant awakens.:silly:

I believe I know what you are saying and in a civilized society (if I may) you are absolutely correct.

It is puzzling to myself why I regard any statement that puts a 'qualification' on 'freedom'...no matter how rational...handcuffs the concept of 'freedom'.

Freedom has no qualifications...freedom has no division...freedom has no right or wrong...and so on.

Perhaps only in my little universe.:)
That kind of freedom is called libertarianism. But in the USA freedom...there is one limitation to it. It's called "responsibility". The problem with this term is... Who's to qualify and quantify it's meaning(responsibility)? Hence, all the laws.

[Solon]

You can argue that freedom is governed by freemarket forces.
Take this example,
Guy A is playing loud music, he has a right to listen to music.
Guy B doesn't like the loud music. He has a right to sit in peace.

This is a negative externality

Check out a simple demand/supply curve

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no2/images/scott1b.gif

Quantity in this case represents the amount/loudness of music, and price can represent how much A/B is willing to pay to get their way through bribes, or negotiations, or anything else like that.

Individiual A wants to be at the top end of the Supply Curve (we shall assume his indifference curve is up there, to make it easier to demonstrate). Individual B would be happy at the top end of the demand curve. To break it down: A would pay more to be able to be more noisey, B would pay more to be able to have more quiet.

This all evens out at PE-QE, the equilibrium point, and everyone is relatively happy and gets their (not quite free, but free enough) freedoms.

This if course is a very very basic model .. but you get the idea?


Just thought I'd throw some economics into the discussion :knocked-o

[acushla]

The fact of the matter is that there are no rules, there are no paths, there is no absolute right or wrong...there is only chaos. Chaos is the one truth.

From this void people create systems, modes of behaviour (acceptable and unacceptable), belief systems, rules and morality.

The fatal flaw in all of this creativeness of what we would like to be the absolute is that we trick ourselves into forgetting the original truth of chaos...and then wonder why it all goes so wrong.

We can put the 10 rules on tablet, we can define on paper all the things as they should be (yours and mine) but none of our efforts erases the underlying foundation of everything that exists...chaos.

If you know what I mean.:confused:

[acushla]

You can argue that freedom is governed by freemarket forces.
Take this example,
Guy A is playing loud music, he has a right to listen to music.
Guy B doesn't like the loud music. He has a right to sit in peace.


This reminds me of a story.

Years ago one afternoon I was playing music on my system, loud but not, to me, overly loud.

There was a knock at my door and when I opened it there was a young woman, a neighbour, who, with lots of attitude, explained to me how she was trying to study and would I mind turning my music off as it was disturbing her.

I told her that I was trying to listen to music...perhaps she could stop studying for a while...either that or go to the library.

She looked at me as if I was crazy (correct) and sputtered and fumed as to how her wanting to study and my wanting to listen to music was not the same thing. I told her as far as I was concerned it was exactly the same thing...why should I abandon what I was doing so she could do what she wanted to do? What was different about her 'turning off' the studying so I could continue to listen to music?

I don't believe she was ever quite the same after that. The fact is I would have been more than happy to turn off the music had it not been for her holier than thou condescending manner.

The truth is...I was never quite the same after that encounter because an argument I had made up out of thin air had taught me something.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

It wasn't very tactful of her. She should have asked you if you could turn down the volume. With 'please' of course. It's not fair to deny any one anything but there is a whole fuzzy region between the extremes.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Wikipedia - Good for youuuu (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/feb/17/wikipedia.islam/print)

[Todd The Kiwi]

does that devalue him or something?

religions are f/cked, sorry but it's just a waste of time.

[acushla]

Wikipedia defies 180,000 demands to remove images of the Prophet

Too bad more individuals and organizations couldn't grow a set of balls and follow Wikipedia's lead.

[Tokelil]

Just received this message on Skype:

Message to Denmark and European Union Countries

Praise be to God and blessings and peace be upon the Messenger of God,

The content of the message:

To the officials of Denmark and European Union countries,

Peace be upon those who follow guidance and justice and all who avoid prejudice and Injustice,

It is necessary to know that God has sent Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) as a mercy to the entire world, and as an invitation to peace and safety that are accomplished by the submission of people to God.

God Said: (And WE have not sent you but as a mercy for all peoples), and said: (O you who believe, enter perfectly in Islam).

According to our religion and prophet, it is a must that we respect all prophets and messengers, those who defame any of the prophets have left the fold of Islam deserving the worst punishment.

It is strange what the Denmark press has done of mockery and defaming our prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him), even though you know that mockery and defaming doesn't lie under the category of democracy or the freedom of speech you proclaim.

Mockery is a violation of others rights, personal freedom, and the democracy you call for. Although one of the main factors of freedom of speech you proclaim is that it shouldn't cause racial or sectarianism tendencies, it is obvious that mocking our prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) will make the Arab and Islamic Nation react negatively towards Denmark who sponsors this violation of religious and personal rights.

Here are some questions that include a statement that shows the violation of the press towards the rights of the prophets, people and the nations:

Would you accept if the Denmark press published the opinion that doubts the Nazi holocaust for Jews?

Would you accept the opinion that claims that the exploding of the facilities is a legal action?

Finally, I alert you that what the press is doing of violation towards our prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) may cause motive for the saboteurs to devastate your country, so be careful and put an end to whoever mocks prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him).

Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

End of the message.

Written by: Abu Omar Al-Otiby

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

You have a strange friend Toke :ermm:

[Tokelil]

You have a strange friend Toke :ermm:Needless to say I'd probably change Skype settings so I have to approved people before they can message me from now on...

[Willow of Oz]

Nevertheless, it raises interesting points.
I seem to recall that some dude was going to come over to Oz, but the government said that because he didn't believe the holocaust took place as is popularly described, he should be denied entry.

[Toe]

...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/04/wteapot104.xml

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

All praise the might of the teapot! Clearly it is the most powerful symbol to represent purity of water! Wait...is there a God involved here>?

[Todd The Kiwi]

jean genie... :cheeky: