Bad Sony! Down!

[Sheepeh]

Sysinternals' Mark Russinovich has performed an analysis of the copy restriction measures deployed by Sony Music on its latest CDs: which he bluntly calls it a 'root kit'. Using conventional tools to remove Sony's digital media malware will leave ordinary users with a dead Windows systems.

While the Sony CDs play fine on Red Book audio devices such as standard consumer electronics CD players, when they're played on a Windows PC the software forces playback through a bundled media player, and restricts how many digital copies can be made from Windows.

A 'root kit' generally refers to the nefarious malware used by hackers to gain control of a system. Root kits have several characteristics: they finds their way onto systems uninvited; endeavor to remain undetected; and then may either intercept system library routines and reroute them to its own routines, or replace system executables with its own, or both - all with the intention of gaining system level ownership of the computer.

What makes Sony's CD digital media software particularly nasty is that using expert tools for removing the parasite risks leaving you with a Windows PC that's useless, and that requires a full reformat and reinstall.

So is Sony bundling a root kit, or is it the latest in a long line of clumsy, and sometimes laughably inept attempts to thwart the playback of digital media on PCs?

We were inclined to the latter - but in practical terms, for ordinary users, the consequences are so serious that semantic distinctions are secondary.

In actuality both, reckons Russinovich. It's a 'root kit' that arrived uninvited, but it's also "underhanded and sloppy software" , that once removed, prevented Windows from playing his CD again (Van Zant's 'Get With The Man') he notes in his analysis.

The Sony CD creates a hidden directory and installs several of its own device drivers, and then reroutes Windows systems calls to its own routines. It intercepts kernel-level APIs, but then attempts to disguise its presence, using a crude cloaking technique.

Disingenuously, the copy restriction binaries were labelled "Essential System Tools".

But the most disturbing part of the tale came when Russinovich ran his standard rootkit-removal tool on the post-Sony PC.

"Users that stumble across the cloaked files with a RKR scan will cripple their computer if they attempt the obvious step of deleting the cloaked files," he writes.

Which puts it in an entirely different class of software to the copy restriction measures we've seen so far, which can be disabled by a Post-It note. Until specialist tools arrive to disinfect PCs of this particular measure.®

How long before someone sues Sony for messing up their PC?

[Tokelil]

Yeah read that this morning. I hope some one sues them!!! Installing software is simply not acceptable without it even mentioned in the EULA.

[Roj]

How long before someone sues Sony for messing up their PC?
Yet one more reason I truly dislike those greedy, underhanded bastards and have no use for them.

[Todd The Kiwi]

realtime recording ;)
take that! kapow!

it's a pity sony do this kind of stuff.
as mentioned in another thread about portable mp3 players or ahem portable ATRAC players :ermm:
as they make some good ware.
soft and hard.

[acushla]

Yet one more reason I truly dislike those greedy, underhanded bastards and have no use for them.

For the record I wholeheartedly and 100% agree with this assessment.

I recently purchased a 2 disc set manufactured by EMI in France that on the back cover stated clearly that it had copy control but was compatible with 'CD Audio Players, DVD Players and PC...'

When I inserted a disc into my PC this message popped up: 'To listen to the CD a number of files need to be updated on your PC. Select OK to Install. Cancel to quit the installation process.'

This didn't really sit well with me so I cancelled. I realize after reading Sheepeh's post that at least I was given the choice.

I am surprised that SONY actually believe they will come away unscathed by this idiocy. Sounds like a class action suit to me.

[jkrzok]

I recently purchased a 2 disc set manufactured by EMI in France that on the back cover stated clearly that it had copy control but was compatible with 'CD Audio Players, DVD Players and PC...'

When I inserted a disc into my PC this message popped up: 'To listen to the CD a number of files need to be updated on your PC. Select OK to Install. Cancel to quit the installation process.'

This didn't really sit well with me so I cancelled.

I hope you returned the CD to the store. We can do a lot of good by telling the retailers that we won't put up with this sort of B.S.

Do you have auto run enabled?

[acushla]

I hope you returned the CD to the store. We can do a lot of good by telling the retailers that we won't put up with this sort of B.S.

Do you have auto run enabled?

I briefly considered returning the CD to the store. It is a 2 CD set of remastered tracks by Edith Piaf...and the truth is I want it.

I might try your suggestion of attaching the CD player to my sound board and seeing if I might be able to record it that way...not that recording it onto my PC was a priority.

As for your question about auto run..no...I do not have it enabled.

[Roj]

When I inserted a disc into my PC this message popped up: 'To listen to the CD a number of files need to be updated on your PC. Select OK to Install. Cancel to quit the installation process.'

This didn't really sit well with me so I cancelled. I realize after reading Sheepeh's post that at least I was given the choice.

This happened with the last Massive Attack, "100th Window". I broke the copy protection using EAC and an Asus 40X cd-rom with older non-DRM-friendly firmware, ripped it (sans the protected area on disk where their player and 128bit mp3s resided) and uploaded it to Usenet in lossless, mp3 and ogg formats.

I am surprised that SONY actually believe they will come away unscathed by this idiocy.

Why? Sony has a long record of selling snake oil and being proprietary. They are prime candidates for this sort of thing.

It's better than that. Our Privacy Act stands in the way of things being installed on one's PC that could constitute an invasion of privacy. I would:

1) take the CD back to the store and demand a copy that did not do this

2) if they couldn't provide one, demand a refund regardless of their refund policy

3) threaten them with the Better Business Bureau AND legal action with the Privacy Act if they failed to comply.

I would of course start these proceedings in a reasonable tone of voice. Depending on whether or not they were acceeded to these requests, I would ensiure that my voice became more and more strident with every passing moment. I would also make sure to do this while the store was crowded, preferably with younger buyers who would likely own computers (very easy to do - just get there between six and eight in the evening). There's nothing like an irate customer to strike fear and dread into the hearts of retailers.

With the Massive Attack, the store had the good sense to choose what was behind door number two - I never had to go to door three. I won't say whether or not I kept my flawless lossless rip.

Hit the retailers in the pocketbook. They'll hit Sony in the 'nads for you.

[Roj]

I hope you returned the CD to the store. We can do a lot of good by telling the retailers that we won't put up with this sort of B.S.

Do you have auto run enabled?
Just hold d own the Shift key before you insert the disk. TweakUI can also be used to disable autorun as can Device Manager.

[acushla]

I am surprised that SONY actually believe they will come away unscathed by this idiocy.

Why? Sony has a long record of selling snake oil and being proprietary. They are prime candidates for this sort of thing.

It's better than that. Our Privacy Act stands in the way of things being installed on one's PC that could constitute an invasion of privacy.

I am not going to 'defend' either SONY or EMI...but I will point out what I consider to be legal facts.

First...in my case the EMI disc clearly stated that it had copy protection on it and secondly, when I inserted the disc it told me I needed to update my files in order to play the disc it then asked for my permission to install their software.

I am quite certain that EMI could make a very good case that in no way was it installing anything on my computer that could constitute an invasion of privacy...no matter how much one wanted to argue the opposite.

The fact of the matter is, EMI was allowing me the final decision as to whether or not I wanted their software installed on my computer.

I suppose if it could be proved that the software did more than simply allow me to play the disc...well then, that's an entirely different issue.

[Shewolf]

More crap from arsehole companies..thats all we need.

[Roj]

I suppose if it could be proved that the software did more than simply allow me to play the disc...well then, that's an entirely different issue.
Easy proof:

The company modified and replaced key (and copyrighted) operating system compoinents to make them perform in a way other than what the original vendor intended.

There's your entirely different issue.

In retrospect the only thing they could argue is that they asked your permission. However, it could be counter argued in turn that they did not disclose exactly what they intended to do and the full ramifications thereof. Then there's the whole issue I raised above.

In any even it puts them on rapidly erooding ground.

[jkrzok]

If they're telling you that this EMI disc won't play on your PC without new software, then they're telling you that disc doesn't meet the technical standards that make a shiny disc a real CD.

That alone would be reason for me to return a 'CD' because what they're selling you isn't in fact a real CD; it didn't meet the standard.

Did the disc have the 'CD' logo on it anywhere?

When did it tell you you needed to install new software? When you hit play?

[Roj]

If they're telling you that this EMI disc won't play on your PC without new software, then they're telling you that disc doesn't meet the technical standards that make a shiny disc a real CD.

I had forgotten that part. That means that they (EMI), the retailer or BOTH are guilty of fraud. EMI is guilty of fraud only if they have the Phillips label (Compact Disc) on the CD but the store is guilty for selling fraudulent media - period. Why? Because they're selling a musical compact disc to you that any way you slice it is not a musical compact disc since it doesn't adhere to the standard.

[WHAT?]

That alone would be reason for me to return a 'CD' because what they're selling you isn't in fact a real CD; it didn't meet the standard.


Why? Because they're selling a musical compact disc to you that any way you slice it is not a musical compact disc since it doesn't adhere to the standard.
Yeah, good luck with that one!!

[Roj]

That alone would be reason for me to return a 'CD' because what they're selling you isn't in fact a real CD; it didn't meet the standard.
Why? Because they're selling a musical compact disc to you that any way you slice it is not a musical compact disc since it doesn't adhere to the standard.

Yeah, good luck with that one!!
There was a post on CDFreaks a while back by someone who made it stick in the UK.

[WHAT?]

So the idea that someone can simply record straight to the soundcard, albeit analog, didn't cross the minds of the creators?
Maybe, it's the new "high quality" that won't pass through via run-of-the-mill soundcard or something, huh? Knowing this maybe they're thinking they can at least stop the newest formatting anyway, I guess! Hmmm?
Well once it's on the internet in any older format they won't be stopping anybody! It only takes one to place it out there before it rapidly multiplies. I assume then by them knowing this, the only thing left to protect is the new quality formatting that can't be passed through (Their thinking anyway, that is!).

[jkrzok]

Yeah, good luck with that one!!

I have returned CDs for just that reason. Successfully.

Retailers HATE to see an unsatisfied customer making a stink in their store, especially in front of other customers.

My point is that now they are down some $15 on the day AND have this piece of crap that has to go back to their supplier. My hope is that enough of these returns will make an impression on the retailer and that these retailers, who are in fact the record companies' real customers, will make a stink the record companies will take notice of.

[Todd The Kiwi]

we ban people from our shop if they are unreasonable
"unreasonable" being discretionary on our part.
you attract more flys with honey than vinegar.
however, thankfully we do not sell cds heh heh.
i'd be interested to know how many of you work in retail...


Did the disc have the 'CD' logo on it anywhere?
this piqued my interest, what's the story with the logo mate?

cd = copyrighted disk :cheeky:

[Qaz]

this piqued my interest, what's the story with the logo mate?

Recently, some major recording publishers have begun to sell CDs that violate the Red Book standard for the purposes of copy prevention, using systems like Copy control, or extra features such as DualDisc, which features a CD-layer and a DVD-layer. The CD-layer is much thinner, 0.9mm, than required by the Red Book, which stipulates 1.2mm. Philips and many other companies have warned them that including the Compact Disc Digital Audio logo on such non-conforming discs may constitute trademark infringement; either in anticipation or in response, the long-familiar logo is no longer to be seen on many recent CDs.

1 2 3 4

[Roj]

Retailers HATE to see an unsatisfied customer making a stink in their store, especially in front of other customers.

Hence my MO iterated above. I've found it to be quite effective and a terrifying reminder to those twits (while being inestimably amusing to me) that the customer is always right and the only reason they exist in the first place (and yes, I have used those exact words to retailers).

My point is that now they are down some $15 on the day AND have this piece of crap that has to go back to their supplier. My hope is that enough of these returns will make an impression on the retailer and that these retailers, who are in fact the record companies' real customers, will make a stink the record companies will take notice of.

Which was exactly my point.

Too many people are afraid to cause a fuss when they get treated unfairly.

I'm NOT.

[acushla]

If they're telling you that this EMI disc won't play on your PC without new software, then they're telling you that disc doesn't meet the technical standards that make a shiny disc a real CD.

That alone would be reason for me to return a 'CD' because what they're selling you isn't in fact a real CD; it didn't meet the standard.

Did the disc have the 'CD' logo on it anywhere?

When did it tell you you needed to install new software? When you hit play?

I have studied not only the front and rear of the labeling...but also the physical disc and the pamphlet that comes with it. The CD logo does not appear anywhere.

Careful reading of the 'COPY CONTROLLED' warning (which appears to have its own logo) reveals that, as far as WINDOWS is concerned...it is only compatible with WINDOWS 95.

So it wasn't as if I wasn't informed.

Not to sound droll...I would not take this CD back for essentially 3 reasons:

1. I knew what I was buying before I bought it. (In a manner of speaking.)

2. I really like the CD.

3. I have shopped at this store for over 30 years and receive a fairly good discount. (Which is not to say that I couldn't have approached them quietly.)

[WHAT?]

I have returned CDs for just that reason. Successfully.

Retailers HATE to see an unsatisfied customer making a stink in their store, especially in front of other customers.

Yes, most all will take it back, and usually for any given reason. My point about the labeling and eluding to a law suit seemed a bit extreme.
But as it were...
This from cnet...
When a CD is not a CD
Philips, because of conformity issues, has warned the record labels that the discs are actually not CDs at all and must bear warning labels to inform consumers.

"We've made sure they would put a very clear warning that you're not buying a compact disc, but something different," Wirtz said. "We've been warning some labels to begin with, and they've adjusted their behavior."

That means labels would also be barred from using the familiar "compact disc" logo that has been stamped on every CD since Philips and Sony jointly developed the technology in 1978.

[Roj]

I have studied not only the front and rear of the labeling...but also the physical disc and the pamphlet that comes with it. The CD logo does not appear anywhere.

So back to the store it would go in my case with the words "this is not a music CD - I would like a refund please". When they asked why, I would present them with the evidence you stated.

So it wasn't as if I wasn't informed.

That doesn't matter. The store represented it to you and sold it as a music CD. It is not.

1. I knew what I was buying before I bought it. (In a manner of speaking.)

Wrong. See above.

2. I really like the CD.

Your preference. I do not encourage fraud.

3. I have shopped at this store for over 30 years and receive a fairly good discount. (Which is not to say that I couldn't have approached them quietly

Then they should have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about refunding your money.

In this case since oyu have a history with them, I would approach them quietly, take the refund and find a way to acquire the album via other means. P2P and the Usenet lossless groups come immediately to mind.

[Sheepeh]

I would approach them quietly, take the refund and find a way to acquire the album via other means. P2P and the Usenet lossless groups come immediately to mind.

Mods encouraging piracy, whatever next - people pirating getting a better product than the people who aren't? Oh. I see.

[Roj]

Mods encouraging piracy, whatever next - people pirating getting a better product than the people who aren't? Oh. I see.
It's not piracy in THIS country - downloading is quite legal here in Canada. A judge has already made a ruling on it, one which the CRIA is hard pressed to overturn to their dismay. :)

One could only wish that governments in other countries were less in the back pocket of the greedy extorting thugs who constitute the entertainment industry.

[acushla]

A timely article...one of many:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5110202362.html

Unfortunately, I can hear the laughter in the backroom even as I type this.

[acushla]

It's not piracy in THIS country - downloading is quite legal here in Canada. A judge has already made a ruling on it, one which the CRIA is hard pressed to overturn to their dismay. :)

One could only wish that governments in other countries were less in the back pocket of the greedy extorting thugs who constitute the entertainment industry.

Not so smug there Mr. Roj or you're going to look pretty silly the day our Government (and what a joke they are...but that's another topic) finalizes registration that will make it illegal to download. :bandit:

From what I can gather...that day is fast approaching. :cry:

If only Layton would withdraw his support...then it might be another year before we heard anything about this subject. :)

[Roj]

A timely article...one of many:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5110202362.html

Unfortunately, I can hear the laughter in the backroom even as I type this.
You have very good ears. :)

[Roj]

Not so smug there Mr. Roj or you're going to look pretty silly the day our Government (and what a joke they are...but that's another topic) finalizes registration that will make it illegal to download. :bandit:

From what I can gather...that day is fast approaching. :cry:

If only Layton would withdraw his support...then it might be another year before we heard anything about this subject. :)
Don't hold you breath on that. Canuicks a re a lot more covic minded than you think and the letters are already prepared.

[jkrzok]

Sony has released a service pack (http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/updates.html) to get rid of the root kit.

Now if only I trusted them...

[acushla]

You have very good ears. :)

A gift, I know. :cool:

[acushla]

Don't hold you breath on that. Canuicks a re a lot more covic minded than you think and the letters are already prepared.

Hmmm...must be something wrong with my OPERA Dictionary...seems it does not know the word 'covic'.

Perhaps you could retype your letter in MS Office and see if everything is OK on your end. :cheeky:

[Roj]

Hmmm...must be something wrong with my OPERA Dictionary...seems it does not know the word 'covic'.

Perhaps you could retype your letter in MS Office and see if everything is OK on your end. :cheeky:
It's a cross between civic and coven. Didn't you know we were all witches and warlocks?

Add it to your dictionary.

[Todd The Kiwi]

Canuicks?
is that a canadian kivi perchance ? :cheeky:

[Roj]

Canuicks?
is that a canadian kivi perchance ? :cheeky:
Abso-fraggin'-lutely! :) :) ;)

[Tokelil]

Oh my... This is just great! :grimreape
World of Warcraft hackers using Sony BMG rootkit (http://www.securityfocus.com/brief/34)

[Sheepeh]

Oh my... This is just great! :grimreape
World of Warcraft hackers using Sony BMG rootkit (http://www.securityfocus.com/brief/34)

Aye. Now we either have to get some sooperdooper version of "The Warden", force online games to detect rootkits and disable them (and risk nuking computers) or have an easy way to detect cheaters.

Fantastic.

I guess Blizzard could write something to detect the Sony shite and refuse to play the game if it's found, which would set a legion of Blizz fans on Sony...

[Tokelil]

Well there's only one prober way here and that is for sony to fix it ASAP! This is a major virus thread as long as the root kit hides files from AV programs as well. The Warden is a small problem (though of course I would be kind of mad if it was used on my server ;)) but there's much bigger problems with this.

[Sheepeh]

Well there's only one prober way here and that is for sony to fix it ASAP! This is a major virus thread as long as the root kit hides files from AV programs as well. The Warden is a small problem (though of course I would be kind of mad if it was used on my server ;)) but there's much bigger problems with this.

The Warden *is* used on your server. It's on all of them. You agreed to it in the patch EULA.

[Tokelil]

Yer I know The Warden is used on my server! Wasn't was I meant to sayl I would be sorry if a cheat was executed on my server...

[acushla]

More on the SONY/BMG Rootkit:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/02/AR2005110202362.html

[Roj]

"Privacy and security experts charged that the technology built into many of Sony's music CDs since March is unnecessarily invasive and exposes users to threats from hackers and virus "

And if the Americans with their obvious disregard for individual and consumer privacy rights find this offensive, can you imagine what the Privacy Act, which has a REAL set of 'nads on it, would do with this drivel?

It would appear that I was right onthe money.

[acushla]

It would appear that I was right on the money.
As per usual.

(Apologies to Todd.)

[Todd The Kiwi]

ha ha hey while you canadians are apologising for stuff -
how about avril, twain and dion ha ha ha ha ha ha :cheeky:

[jkrzok]

ha ha hey while you canadians are apologising for stuff -
how about avril, adams, twain and dion ha ha ha ha ha ha :cheeky:

Barenaked Ladies and the Arcade Fire.

All is forgiven.

[Roj]

ha ha hey while you canadians are apologising for stuff -
how about avril, adams, twain and dion ha ha ha ha ha ha :cheeky:
Apologizing? Why would we do that? And if we were apologizing, of the lot the only one we should worth apologe for (and are we EVER sorry) is Celine Dion.

The rest seriously rock!

[Roj]

Barenaked Ladies and the Arcade Fire.

All is forgiven.
"If I had a million dollars... "

GAWD how I love that song. :)

[acushla]

Apologizing? Why would we do that? And if we were apologizing, of the lot the only one we should worth apologe for (and are we EVER sorry) is Celine Dion.

The rest seriously rock!

Appparently not all Canadians think the same.

Something to do with living in Kanata I guess.

[Tokelil]

The rest seriously rock!Asbestos?

[Roj]

Asbestos?
Ya lost me...

[jkrzok]

If you feel like telling Sony what you think about DRM and root kits, go here. (http://www.sonymusic.com/about/feedback.cgi)

It's funny but I was out TV shopping today. I wouldn't even look at a Sony product. The trust a company builds up over years can be broken in mere moments.

[acushla]

If you feel like telling Sony what you think about DRM and root kits, go here. (http://www.sonymusic.com/about/feedback.cgi) .
I hope this doesn't sound too cynical but do you think that the emails are directed to the 'delete' folder?

That laughter is beginning to become deafening.

[teedoff087]

If you feel like telling Sony what you think about DRM and root kits, go here. (http://www.sonymusic.com/about/feedback.cgi)

It's funny but I was out TV shopping today. I wouldn't even look at a Sony product. The trust a company builds up over years can be broken in mere moments.
Even for a television? I recently bought a Sony digicam (Cybershot DSC-S90) and it works great. I think Sony makes excellent products for the most part, although they may be somewhat overrated. Of course, I've never have and never will buy a copy protected CD, but I don't think I'll ever have to make the choice as I listen to mostly independent music. The day an indie label resorts to this shit... bleh.

[jkrzok]

I hope this doesn't sound too cynical but do you think that the emails are directed to the 'delete' folder?

That laughter is beginning to become deafening.

If I'm the only one, yeah they'll just trash it. If everyone that's pi**ed off sends one, perhaps someone will notice.

[jkrzok]

Even for a television? I recently bought a Sony digicam (Cybershot DSC-S90) and it works great. I think Sony makes excellent products for the most part, although they may be somewhat overrated. Of course, I've never have and never will buy a copy protected CD, but I don't think I'll ever have to make the choice as I listen to mostly independent music. The day an indie label resorts to this shit... bleh.

Yes, even TVs. I have a house full of Sony stuff. My mindset used to be that Sony would be my first choice for anything and if I bought another brand it would have to clearly beat Sony.

But now Sony's increasingly leaving a bad taste in my mouth. And it mostly stems from their DRM shenanigans, going back to when Sony first introduced minidisc. There's always been some sort of DRM built into their hardware. So the root kit fiasco doesn't surprise me at all; even when they didn't sell you the music they were all too eager to control how you used it.

So now my thinking is that there are so many alternatives to Sony, why bother to do business with a company whose business ethics in the DRM field are so distasteful?

[acushla]

If I'm the only one, yeah they'll just trash it. If everyone that's pi**ed off sends one, perhaps someone will notice.

I sincerely doubt that anybody is going to be using that 'form' to tell them what a great job they are doing. It's a big world though, so who knows.

How many times do you think they need to read I'm pissed off and I just thought I'd let you know how I feel before they put up a web-site to find out how you feel?

Now I hear the laughter in the room I'm in. Who could that be?

[Todd The Kiwi]

eeep woops, i put adams by mistake, he's all good.
at least avril and shania are hot ;)

[WHAT?]

Aye. Now we either have to get some sooperdooper version of "The Warden", force online games to detect rootkits and disable them (and risk nuking computers) or have an easy way to detect cheaters.

...

Who needs to cheat anyway? Being good enough is all I ever needed!

Signed, William Clinton

[Roj]

It's funny but I was out TV shopping today. I wouldn't even look at a Sony product.
I haven't for at least a decade - overpriced stuff. Toshiba and Hitachi have LONG had their number and now Samsung and LG are eating them alive too.

As I said, "Sony" and "price / performance value" haven't occupied the same sentence for well over a decade in TV gear and TWO decades for audio gear.

[Roj]

eeep woops, i put adams by mistake, he's all good.
at least avril and shania are hot ;)
Those hip-huggers of Shania give people VERY lurid dreams and then there's the "we love Avril's crack" set....

[Roj]

Even for a television? I recently bought a Sony digicam (Cybershot DSC-S90) and it works great. I think Sony makes excellent products for the most part, although they may be somewhat overrated. Of course, I've never have and never will buy a copy protected CD, but I don't think I'll ever have to make the choice as I listen to mostly independent music. The day an indie label resorts to this shit... bleh.
"Working great" isn't the problem.

Overhyped?

Ooooh yah.

Overrated?

Definitely.

Overpriced?

Is the Pope Catholic?

Do bears **** in the woods?

Is 7 Up?

[Roj]

Now I hear the laughter in the room I'm in. Who could that be?
Your little voices telling you to clean your guns today, perhaps?

[Roj]

Sony has released a service pack (http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/updates.html) to get rid of the root kit.

Now if only I trusted them...
Later reading reveals that it's not a service pack, nor does it remove the rootkit. It's yet another con job. Check CDFreaks for details.

[Roj]

If you feel like telling Sony what you think about DRM and root kits, go here. (http://www.sonymusic.com/about/feedback.cgi)

My comments:

Your predatory and Draconian copy protection methods and stance towards DRM are an insult to customers everywhere.

By doing this you have guaranteed that not only will I not be purchasing any Sony products again in this lifetime but that I will go out of my way to recommend alternatives to all who ask my opinion. As I am well versed in entertainment technology and as such have my opinion sought on a regular basis, I leave it to your imagination how much damage your continued disregard for consumer rights has cost you from ONE individual, let alone hundreds of others like me.

I of course signed my full real name but my stated return address was bitbucket@hotmail.com. The rather obvous reason for this is that I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in ever hearing from them.

[acushla]

[b]By doing this you have guaranteed that not only will I not be purchasing any Sony products again in this lifetime
I'm with you all the way here...except for that never purchasing any SONY product again in this lifetime part.

What happens if sometime in the future they introduce some 'interactive' holograms with the likes of Halle Berry or Lil Kim or Beyonce...well...you get the idea.

From my point of view all would be forgiven...or forgotten. Or both.

Until that day though...

[Roj]

What happens if sometime in the future they introduce some 'interactive' holograms with the likes of Halle Berry or Lil Kim or Beyonce...well...you get the idea.

Then I'll get the Toshiba version with will

1) Cost less

2) Give me the ablity to *taste* them too. :) :) ;)

From my point of view all would be forgiven...or forgotten. Or both.

Nah - if they have a virus on that stuff it could well be life threatening at that point...

[Todd The Kiwi]

is there anything HITACHI (http://www.hitachi.com/jsp/hitachi/hitachi/product/index.html) don't make ?

[acushla]

Then I'll get the Toshiba version ...

Nah - if they have a virus on that stuff it could well be life threatening at that point...

Not too well thought out...obviously whoever the hologram (with SACD audio) featured would have a exclusive signed contract with the 'label' . Halle Berry and Beyonce would not be available to TOSHIBA...although I suspect Celion Dion would be.

Take your TOSHIBA (you'll have to wait awhile as SONY developed the technology)...I'll grit my teeth and suffer through the SONY app.

Speaking of viruses...in my case I think it would be SONY who would need to be concerned. :cheeky: :)

[Sheepeh]

Isn't "bitbucket@hotmail.com" a valid address? =/

[Roj]

is there anything HITACHI (http://www.hitachi.com/jsp/hitachi/hitachi/product/index.html) don't make ?
Yes.

Rootkits.

[Roj]

Isn't "bitbucket@hotmail.com" a valid address? =/
Not for meeeee... :):) ;)

[Roj]

Not too well thought out...obviously whoever the hologram (with SACD audio) featured would have a exclusive signed contract with the 'label' . Halle Berry and Beyonce would not be available to TOSHIBA...although I suspect Celion Dion would be.

Yes, but no one will buy the media as the proprietary licensing costs will be so inflated by greed that players (and media) will cost four times what they should. Sales will fall flat and the technology will become a footnote to history used only in broadcast circles. True to Sony form, the artists will not see a penny of the royalties for the pittance that will sell thus providing an object lesson to other artists not to waste their time and talents on that company.

Take your TOSHIBA (you'll have to wait awhile as SONY developed the technology)...I'll grit my teeth and suffer through the SONY app.

Given that the technology is interesting despite the fact that greed won't allow it to gain any market share, another company will come up with an improved and cheaper flavor, will license it for next to nothing (in comparison) and thus will recoup the R&D costs via mass market sales. The Sony solution will be relegated to the closet or dustbin, dependant on whether or not someone needs a paperweight.

In case you haven't figured it out, this isn't speculation. It has happened to at least THREE major Sony innovations:

1) Beta

2) the Minidisc

3) the memory stick

...and STILL the company won't learn.

Speaking of viruses...in my case I think it would be SONY who would need to be concerned. :cheeky: :)

LOL!

[acushla]

Yes, but no one will buy the media as the proprietary licensing costs will be so inflated by greed that players (and media) will cost four times what they should. Sales will fall flat and the technology will become a footnote to history used only in broadcast circles. True to Sony form, the artists will not see a penny of the royalties for the pittance that will sell thus providing an object lesson to other artists not to waste their time and talents on that company.
!
Getting back to the point. IF SONY developed an 'interactive' medium which featured life size replicas of Halle Berry or Beyonce (etc.)...I'd be buying one. Regardless of the cost.

The way I view it that one act alone would suffice as an apology. :) :)

[Sheepeh]

Getting back to the point. IF SONY developed an 'interactive' medium which featured life size replicas of Halle Berry or Beyonce (etc.)...I'd be buying one. Regardless of the cost.

The way I view it that one act alone would suffice as an apology. :) :)

Opera can already do...wait wrong thread :silly:

[bmc152003]

Opera can already do...wait wrong thread :silly:
hahahahaha

[Roj]

Getting back to the point. IF SONY developed an 'interactive' medium which featured life size replicas of Halle Berry or Beyonce (etc.)...I'd be buying one. Regardless of the cost.

Nah. I wouldn't be touching it if it were made by Sony. I don't subsidize companies known for repeatedly gouging consumers on price without substantiating the difference with increased quality, Draconian business practices (such as changing hardware specs on the fly) and products that are blatant snake-oil rip-offs (yes, I'm referring to SACD). I haven't even addressed their stance on DRM where every customer is rather obviously branded a thief or their new career as malware purveyors. The company is just plain bad news.

Besides, in today's competitive marketplace someone always builds an alternative - at which point the Sony product generally gets left behind in price / performance. So, no, I'd wait for the Toshiba, Hitachi or Dragon-Bitch-From-Taiwan flavor instead of wasting money on Sony. Why? Because by doing that I'll always get a better product for less money.

It's the *smart* thing to do.

The way I view it that one act alone would suffice as an apology. :) :)

Nope. Their complete renouncing of DRM with restitution to all affected customers would be an apology. And since that's never going to happen, we're back to "not in this lifetime or any other". Besides, it would very likely be marketed the way all Sony products are marketed, to whit:

They'd just pitch their product to the mindless snob appeal trendsetters (much the same way Apple does although, unlike Apple and with a few notable exceptions - SACD - Sony's products mostly hold water) and the suckers spoon it down again and again.

As an aside, i see Sony has declared "victory" in the DVD format wars. i wonder how they'll explain that when their version hasn't hit the market yet - and will never see mass production since the buying public is no longer gullible and is waiting for a third standard to emerge that better suits their needs?

But That's A Sony! (to quote unfounded hype from days gone by).

[jkrzok]

Getting back to the point. IF SONY developed an 'interactive' medium which featured life size replicas of Halle Berry or Beyonce (etc.)...I'd be buying one. Regardless of the cost.

I shudder to think what a Sony machine might give me "Interactively." Sony's already demonstrated a willingness to make my computer sick...

Seriously, it's a matter of trust and Sony broke mine. Even if Halle Berry tried to convince me otherwise.

Especially when Toshiba comes out with the Nicole Kidman. :devil:

And Apex with the $79 Charisma Carpenter christmas special at KMart. :cheeky:

[acushla]

Nah. I wouldn't be touching it if it were made by Sony. I don't subsidize companies known for repeatedly gouging consumers on price without substantiating the difference with increased quality, Draconian business practices (such as changing hardware specs on the fly) and products that are blatant snake-oil rip-offs (yes, I'm referring to SACD). I haven't even addressed their stance on DRM where every customer is rather obviously branded a thief or their new career as malware purveyors. The company is just plain bad news.



I concede...your arguments are well thought out and most importantly, persuasive. It is abundantly evident to me that the difference in approach is that you are a man of principals...whereas I have precious few.

I know one thing...reading your posts I will never look at SONY the same way as in the past (in spite of the fact that I really do enjoy a well engineered SACD disc.)

jkrzok only served to add weight to your views. It seems as if I am outnumbered by intelligent people.

Thanks for the life lesson. :cool: :)

[Roj]

I concede...

Did I mention that this holiday season a new Sony toy is very likely coming to North America? It's The Bean and it's a portable mp3 player loaded with goodies and having a very sexy giant jellybean design. The truly neat thing about it is the VERY fast charging battery - internal of course. We all know that rechargable batteries die and since this one is new, the lifespan is likely not that great despite the rhetoric in the shiny marketing brochures. Why do I say this? Past history in battery design and the fact that it's version 1.0. So what does one do when the battery dies?

My guess is "throw the player away".

Given that this thing is being marketed at a price premium (certainly more money than its Creative Labs / Samsung / iRiver counterparts - we won't mention the always overpriced and underfeatured Apple junk), that's likely to be very expensive garbage NEXT holiday season when the battery bites the big one. I don't want to even hazard a guess as to what DRM surprizes are hidden in that cute little package.

Why do I nitpick because it's a Sony product? After all, anyone could do this, right? Sony is the one with the huge brand recognition and the "trust factor". Samsung is years away from having that, as are Creative Labs and the other players in the portable mp3 market. They're niche - Sony is mainstream and so will make a killing on this.

But this is all pure speculation on my part, albeit based on past history - wait and see.

[jkrzok]

Looking at Sony's site, one thing that leaps put at me is that it plays back ATRAC and mp3 but only "supports" unsecured windows media. This means if you bought any digital downloads outside of Sony's store you're S.O.L. Sony's bonus? They're doing their best to limit you to their Connect music store.

It also looks like the only way to tranfers files is through their software. Personally I can vouch for the absolute suckiness of their software.

[Qaz]

Some store was advertasing that here too. the price was actuaaly quite reasonable (ie. no more than similar products from other manufacturers). But yeah, I'd pick another brand.

As for this:
Samsung is years away from having that, as are Creative Labs and the other players in the portable mp3 market. They're niche - Sony is mainstream and so will make a killing on this.

From my experience Creative is actually the most popular brand what comes to portable players. Here anyway.

[Roj]

Looking at Sony's site, one thing that leaps put at me is that it plays back ATRAC and mp3 but only "supports" unsecured windows media. This means if you bought any digital downloads outside of Sony's store you're S.O.L. Sony's bonus? They're doing their best to limit you to their Connect music store.

It also looks like the only way to tranfers files is through their software. Personally I can vouch for the absolute suckiness of their software.
Yup - typical Sony proprietary garbage all round. ATRAC - what a laugh. That is the WORST lossy codec ever devised - it actually finished *under* Windows Media Audio for audio quality if such a thing can be imagined.

Did I also mention that Sony is locked in a Deathmatch with MS (MS *hates* the company due to some rather unsavory business dealings with them over their proprietary PC hardware in days gone by) vis a vis entertainment? My money's on MS - when they sense an opportunity and a market they go after it like a pitbull in heat and Sony has never in their history had an adversary like this one. IBM found that out to their own great dismay. MS can be bastards too - but at the end of the days they don't willingly deceive consumers and are relatively consumer conscious in comparison.

I can't wait for the fireworks between the two. :) :) ;)

[Roj]

Some store was advertasing that here too. the price was actuaaly quite reasonable (ie. no more than similar products from other manufacturers). But yeah, I'd pick another brand.

As for this:
Samsung is years away from having that, as are Creative Labs and the other players in the portable mp3 market. They're niche - Sony is mainstream and so will make a killing on this.

From my experience Creative is actually the most popular brand what comes to portable players. Here anyway.
Unfortunately the sales figures indicate that Creative is taking a batch in that market compared to Apple. I'm no fan of CL but theyeir players (NOT their firmware) are pretty decent. Apple: now THAT stuff is overpriced junk, both the iPod and Nano. Their amplifiers sound like crap - tinny as hell - and as to their construction... I heard there was a class action lawsuit brewing for the Nano.

[Roj]

The arrogance of this company is increasing by leaps and bounds:

From BetaNews:
In an interview with NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4989260) late last week, Sony (http://www.betanews.com/article/Sony_President_Rootkit_of_No_Concern/1131475197#) BMG's Global Digital Business President Thomas Hesse downplayed the recent DRM fiasco (http://www.betanews.com/article/Sony_to_Help_Remove_its_DRM_Rootkit/1130965475) saying he objected to terms such as malware, spyware and rootkit. "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?" he said.

Hesse acknowledged that the controversial First 4 Internet technology that installs and "cloaks" the DRM software without a user's permission shipped on about 20 CDs. But "no information ever gets gathered about the user behavior," he claimed. "This is purely about restricting the ability to burn MP3 files in an unprotected manner."

It's gonna be one helluva dry holiday season for you, Sony. The bacjklash has only just started.

As an aside, once this is over I do believe that consumers should turn their guns on two other targets:

The MPAA and RIAA.

This could be the catalyst that tears down that nice exclusive tower the entertainment industry has bought for itself from the politicians. Me? I'd personally help hand out the pitchforks and torches.

[acushla]

The arrogance of this company is increasing by leaps and bounds:


Hands up all those who think SONY/BMG are going to deeply regret the day they heard the words 'copy protect'?

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2005/11/virus_writers_e.html

[Roj]

Hands up all those who think SONY/BMG are going to deeply regret the day they heard the words 'copy protect'?

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2005/11/virus_writers_e.html
Like I said, this is going to be the dryest holiday season that company has ever had. The EFF has posted a list of albums using various copy protection techniques and the new Santana is among them. Pity - I heard it and was going to buy it. Not now. Even the other filth (read: "other record companies") are distancing themselves from Sony and their methods.

There truly is no honor among thieves.

The backlash against DRM may finally have begun and the PR nightmare the entertainment industry will face is only just beginning.

"Party on, Wayne!"

"Party on, Garth!"

[acushla]

The EFF has posted a list of albums using various copy protection techniques and the new Santana is among them. Pity - I heard it and was going to buy it. Not now.

This got me thinking. It seems that like a double edged knife, one jagged and one smooth, we end up punishing those that had nothing to do with the decision to have their work presented in such a underhanded manner.

I am curious to hear your perspective on this aspect of the current situation.

[acushla]

It seems as if the Bush administration are not thrilled by SONY"s stupidity...http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2005/11/the_bush_admini.html#trackback

[Tokelil]

It seems as if the Bush administration are not thrilled by SONY"s stupidity...http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2005/11/the_bush_admini.html#trackbackMicrosofts response:
http://bink.nu/Article5323.bink

[Roj]

Microsofts response:
http://bink.nu/Article5323.bink
I'm very pleased to see this but there's more to the story.


You have to understand also that MS *hates* Sony because of prior unethical business dealings on the part of that company. When Sony came out with the memory stick, they changed the design between the time they shipped the specs to MS for inclusion in Windows and when the product shipped. This change, apart from being totally stupid from a design perspective (this IS Sony we're talking about after all) would in effect cause the OS to not recognise the device. The change Sony made was to put the device header ID in the stick itself rather than the docking cradle for the stick. The OS wouldn't recognise the cradle and thus ignore the memory stick. MS brought this to Sony's attention and were told bluntly "then we guess YOU have a problem, don't you". A lot of extra coding had to be done to kludge the OS so the memory stick would work (as an aside, people wonder why Windows is bulky - this is why and the Linux crew don't have this issue because that OS simply doesn't support a fraction of the quirky hardware Windows has to as a real consumer OS.

Anyway, all this to say that payback is a mutha and THIS is payback.

Bite it, Sony.

[acushla]

Anyway, all this to say that payback is a mutha and THIS is payback.

Bite it, Sony.
I cannot be certain if this is wishful thinking or the unfolding of a story that I think is going to get very, very interesting.

There is a class action suit in the State of California and my understanding is that another class action suit will be filed Wednesday in the State of New York. That's just the USA.

The fact that Micro$oft have classified this as malware (which it obviously is) is going to provide a solid 'witness for the prosecution'. (Yes, I've been watching my 'Law and Order'.)

A final observation...although SONY/BMG have announced they have 'temporarily' ceased production of CD's with this copy protect...in Toronto today you are still able to purchase the new SANTANA album and I assume all the other titles.

What's up with that?

[Roj]

A final observation...although SONY/BMG have announced they have 'temporarily' ceased production of CD's with this copy protect...in Toronto today you are still able to purchase the new SANTANA album and I assume all the other titles.

What's up with that?
You forgot the part where $ONY was bitch-slapped by Homeland Security. As to the "temporary", those class action suits will make it "permanent".

My guess is that the dreck is still on sale because the Privacy Act lawsuits haven't started yet.

Wait for it.

In any event, rumour has it that the new Santana can be had in lossless format "out there"...

[acushla]

In any event, rumour has it that the new Santana can be had in lossless format "out there"...
Not to turn this thread into one about SANTANA but this album confirms what I felt the last time I saw them this past summer (and I do mean the LAST time)...can you say STUCK IN A RUT? I knew you could. This album is a carbon copy of 'Shaman' which in turn was a carbon copy of 'Supernatural'. 'OK ladies and gentleman...now we're going to do the same song again but like this....' Talk about 50 ways to leave your lover!

I find the entire music scene really depressing as of late...which might explain why I'm listening to a lot of blues.

You want music...check out Buddy Guy's latest offering, especially the 'I Put A Spell On You'. Wait a minute...what's that I see...featuring Carlos Santana?
How about that...maybe he should just guest star on other artists albums...rather than have everybody be a guest on his.

I for one would buy into that.

[Sheepeh]

Not to turn this thread into one about SANTANA but this album confirms what I felt the last time I saw them this past summer (and I do mean the LAST time)...can you say STUCK IN A RUT? I knew you could. This album is a carbon copy of 'Shaman' which in turn was a carbon copy of 'Supernatural'. 'OK ladies and gentleman...now we're going to do the same song again but like this....' Talk about 50 ways to leave your lover!

I find the entire music scene really depressing as of late...which might explain why I'm listening to a lot of blues.

You want music...check out Buddy Guy's latest offering, especially the 'I Put A Spell On You'. Wait a minute...what's that I see...featuring Carlos Santana?
How about that...maybe he should just guest star on other artists albums...rather than have everybody be a guest on his.

I for one would buy into that.

Indie bands ftw, I say. People like Machinae Supremacy, signed to MDB Records (sadly no longer with us), put some music out there for free in OGG and MP3 flavours, and then will sell you a DRMless, proper CD for £7. Bang up job, if I say so myself. I'll be buying their next album for SURE.

Also, more talented than most commerical pap they try to pedal these days.

[acushla]

Finally...somebody has taken the time to print the new rules.

You know that recent disc you've been hearing a lot about lately? You know, the ones being manufactured by SONY/BMG? According to a 3000 word 'End User Agreement'...you don't actually own the CD...SONY/BMG do.

Wait...there's more: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004145.php

It has now crossed my mind that perhaps, given how aggressively the music industry have been pursuing the P2P network's, perhaps they have purposely set this all up to force the issue in court.

Like it's part of a plan, man.

Or is this how rumours get started?

[WHAT?]

I just breifly scaned this thread to see if this was mentioned anywhere! I've been busy, but had just a moment to pop in. I'm the fool if this is a topic here or in another thread like this....


Sony BMG said it has temporarily stopped manufacturing music CDs containing a controversial copy-protection program after several Internet viruses took advantage of the software to attack computers.

"We are aware that a computer virus is circulating that may affect computers with XCP content protection software," the company said in a statement Friday, referring to the secret program Sony included in some of its music CDs that would download itself onto hard drives unbeknownst to many customers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1.DTL

[Roj]

I just breifly scaned this thread to see if this was mentioned anywhere! I've been busy, but had just a moment to pop in. I'm the fool if this is a topic here or in another thread like this....


Sony BMG said it has temporarily stopped manufacturing music CDs containing a controversial copy-protection program after several Internet viruses took advantage of the software to attack computers.

"We are aware that a computer virus is circulating that may affect computers with XCP content protection software," the company said in a statement Friday, referring to the secret program Sony included in some of its music CDs that would download itself onto hard drives unbeknownst to many customers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1.DTL
It's gone furthger - now they're actually recalling all affected media and exchanging them.

"We are your customers - Phear us!"

[jkrzok]

I just breifly scaned this thread to see if this was mentioned anywhere! I've been busy, but had just a moment to pop in. I'm the fool if this is a topic here or in another thread like this....


Sony BMG said it has temporarily stopped manufacturing music CDs containing a controversial copy-protection program after several Internet viruses took advantage of the software to attack computers.

"We are aware that a computer virus is circulating that may affect computers with XCP content protection software," the company said in a statement Friday, referring to the secret program Sony included in some of its music CDs that would download itself onto hard drives unbeknownst to many customers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1.DTL

I thought that Sony's story was that the rootkit posed no security threat. :confused:

Oh wait, that was last week.

It also appears M$ is adding this fine Sony drm strategy to the list of filth its Antispyware program cleans out. How embarrasing for Sony to be considered malware by M$! :cool:

The software giant's Windows AntiSpyware application will be updated to add a detection and removal signature for the rootkit features used in the XCP digital rights management technology. Article here. (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1886122,00.asp)

I imagine this will be a cleaner solution than the manual uninstall which seemed to break cd drives.

[Roj]

I thought that Sony's story was that the rootkit posed no security threat. :confused:

It gets even better:

http://www.betanews.com/article/Sony_Rootkit_Fix_Brings_More_Trouble/1132088663?do=editcomment&comment_id=117815

Some people should just be sterilized to protect the gene pool.

[Todd The Kiwi]

ahem roj (mahal), i have to be a member to view the page you just linked to

pun ?

[jkrzok]

The short version is that when you dl the Sony uninstall an ActiveX file is loaded onto the computer. After leaving the site the file is left as still safe for scripting.

As the software doesn't ensure that the software actually comes from Sony, with a little skill a bad guy could call the file to do all sorts of nasty things to your PC.

Sony just reaches ever higher levels of contempt for their customers.

[Roj]

ahem roj (mahal), i have to be a member to view the page you just linked to

pun ?

Oops! So sign up - it's free. :)

[acushla]

Researcher: Sony DRM on Half a Million Networks

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2005/11/researcher_sony.html#trackback

Imagine the potential consequences of military personnel or government employees at work on a sensitive government network popping one of these CDs into their computer to listen to their favorite Sony-label music artist. If only half of this research turns out to be supported by the broader security community, Sony is about to find itself in big-league legal trouble.

– quote

[acushla]

The World according to SONY/BGM as revealed in their end user agreement with DRM CD's:

1. If your house gets burgled, you have to delete all your music from your laptop when you get home. That's because the EULA says that your rights to any copies terminate as soon as you no longer possess the original CD.

2. You can't keep your music on any computers at work. The EULA only gives you the right to put copies on a "personal home computer system owned by you."

3. If you move out of the country, you have to delete all your music. The EULA specifically forbids "export" outside the country where you reside.

4. You must install any and all updates, or else lose the music on your computer. The EULA immediately terminates if you fail to install any update. No more holding out on those hobble-ware downgrades masquerading as updates.

5. Sony-BMG can install and use backdoors in the copy protection software or media player to "enforce their rights" against you, at any time, without notice. And Sony-BMG disclaims any liability if this "self help" crashes your computer, exposes you to security risks, or any other harm.

6. The EULA says Sony-BMG will never be liable to you for more than $5.00. That's right, no matter what happens, you can't even get back what you paid for the CD.

7. If you file for bankruptcy, you have to delete all the music on your computer. Seriously.

8. You have no right to transfer the music on your computer, even along with the original CD.

9. Forget about using the music as a soundtrack for your latest family photo slideshow, or mash-ups, or sampling. The EULA forbids changing, altering, or make derivative works from the music on your computer.
- quote

Does anybody know what colour the sky is in the SONY/BMG world?

[Sheepeh]

10. SonyBMG possess your soul, and the right to eat your firstborn.

Actually you'll find most EULA's equally draconian, just no-one ever bothers to read them. The legality of a EULA is yet to be fought over in a couty of law...one school of thought says that it's not possible for a comsumer to hand over their rights in such a way.

[acushla]

10. SonyBMG possess your soul, and the right to eat your firstborn.

Actually you'll find most EULA's equally draconian, just no-one ever bothers to read them. The legality of a EULA is yet to be fought over in a county of law...one school of thought says that it's not possible for a consumer to hand over their rights in such a way.
Especially when 9 (unrecoverable) files are downloaded onto your computer before you even get to the EULA!

Personally I would think that the moment the White House weighs in with their disapproval SONY/BMG will have no choice but to abandon this particular approach to copy protect.

I think that in the end the fiasco of this entire affair is going to work in the publics interest inasmuch as courts have now a first hand example of the lengths and total disregard for the rights of others that SONY/BGM have exhibited...not to mention all of the security risks associated with this particular application.

How ironic. What was supposed to be a solution for them will (hopefully) become a solution for us.

God bless SONY/BGM.

[jkrzok]

Sony has finally released a list of titles that contain that bastard drm. Turns out it's a total of 52 titles (http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/titles.html).

What strikes me is that Sony all along was saying it was only about 20 titles that were so infected.

Once again it appears Sony was caught in another lie. I wonder if I can ever trust them.

On the other hand I do thank them for the 'shopping' list. :bandit: I've seen so many of those titles available from, well, you know.

[WHAT?]

I think that in the end the fiasco of this entire affair is going to work in the publics interest inasmuch as courts have now a first hand example of the lengths and total disregard for the rights of others that SONY/BGM have exhibited...not to mention all of the security risks associated with this particular application.

How ironic. What was supposed to be a solution for them will (hopefully) become a solution for us.

God bless SONY/BGM.
Or will it?

I'm thinkin' maybe some of the crackdowns on the little guys (pirating songs) from p2p places would subside. Now in the wake of these events, their only recourse could be focusing on us again!!
Did I say "us"?
Well, I may be way off base~ :robot:

[jkrzok]

Sony said that Macs were safe from this drm filth. It appears that this was less than, shall we say, truthful. Details (http://www.security.ithub.com/article/Sonys+DRM+Rootkit+Comes+in+Mac+Flavor+Too/165172_1.aspx)

I read elsewhere that this whole debacle points out the need for home users to run as something less than Administrators. I would hope that the average user would question why the media player bundled on these disks would need administrator access to their PCs.

Of course most users just seem to click 'yes' to whatever they're asked, especially from a once-but-no-longer trusted source like Sony.

[Tokelil]

Sebastian Porst has a definite proof of LAME code in the Sony's DRM
GPL code found in ECDPlayerControl.ocx, DMCA/EUCD violation too? Scroll down to the bottom of the page for details
With some help from Sabre Security, Sebastian Porst identified mpglib in ECDPlayerControl.ocx

Muzzy's research about Sony's XCP DRM system (http://http://hack.fi/~muzzy/sony-drm/)

[WHAT?]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ft/2005/ft051121.gif

[acushla]

Technobabble.

Texas sues Sony under anti-spyware law

NOV. 21 12:46 P.M. ET The state sued Sony BMG Music Entertainment on Monday under its new anti-spyware law, saying anti-piracy technology the company slipped into music CDs leaves huge security holes on consumers' computers.

The lawsuit is over the so-called XCP technology that Sony had added to more than 50 CDs to restrict to three the number of times a single disc could be copied.

After a storm of criticism, Sony recalled the discs last week.

To enforce the restrictions, the CD automatically installed the copy-protection program when discs were put into a PC -- a necessary step for transferring music to iPods and other portable music players.

Attorney General Greg Abbott accused Sony BMG of surreptitiously installing "spyware" in the form of files that mask other files Sony installed as part of XCP.

This "cloaking" component can leave computers vulnerable to viruses and other security problems, said Abbot, echoing the findings of computer security researchers.

"Sony has engaged in a technological version of cloak-and-dagger deceit against consumers by hiding secret files on their computers," Abbott said in a statement.

The term "spyware" has been used broadly to cover programs that are installed without users' full knowledge and consent, whether or not they actually spy on a user's activities.

A Sony BMG spokesman didn't immediately return a call Monday morning.

Sony BMG initially rejected the uproar over XCP as technobabble.

But after security experts discovered that XCP opened gaping security holes in users' computers -- as did the method Sony BMG offered for removing XCP -- Sony BMG agreed last week to recall the discs.

Some 4.7 million had been made and 2.1 million sold. CDs that had XCP included releases by Van Zant, The Bad Plus, Neil Diamond and Celine Dion.

Abbott said some CDs remained in Texas stores as of Monday morning.

The Texas spyware law allows the state to recover damages of up to $100,000 in damages for each violation.

Abbott said there were thousands of violations, and that any money would go to the state.

[Todd The Kiwi]

we need another chainsaw massacre to sort these muppets out :bezerkicon:

[acushla]

Sony BMG Music's controversial copy-protection scheme can be defeated with a small piece of tape, a research firm said Monday in a demonstration of the futility of digital rights management (DRM).

According to Gartner analysts Martin Reynolds and Mike McGuire, Sony's XCP technology is stymied by sticking a fingernail-size piece of opaque tape on the outer edge of the CD.

That, the pair said in a brief posted online, renders "session 2 -- which contains the self-loading DRM software — unreadable. The PC then treats the CD as an ordinary single-session music CD, and the commonly used CD 'rip' programs continue to work as usual."

So...exactly how many years and how much money did SONY/BMG invest in this venture?

I guess they hadn't thought about the Scotch Tape variable.

Back to the drawing board.

[WHAT?]

Tape!
It's Kinda-like a condom for the DisK huh?

(yes I said disK!)

[acushla]

Well...today SONY/BGM have made an out of court settlement regarding one of the class action suits brought about by their controversial copy right protection application which downloaded a rootkit software program which gathered and relayed information about the user of the computer as well as making it vulnerable to hackers.

SONY/BGM obviously realize the seriousness of their action and have demonstrated deep remorse as evidenced by the terms of the settlement.

In a unprecedented move which has other music companies scrambling to ensure that THEY are not in violation of any ethical and moral standards, the settlement would entitle people who bought the CD's with the copy protection to a cash payment of $7.50 and one album download from a list of more than 200 titles. Alternatively, they could download three albums from the list.

That'll learn 'em. (sarc)

Where are the lawyers when you need them?:calm:

[Protocol]

Symantec is also in trouble over its use of rootkit technology in its products. Read about it here (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/82136/symantec-comes-clean-on-norton-rootkit.html).

[jkrzok]

Symantec is also in trouble over its use of rootkit technology in its products. Read about it here (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/82136/symantec-comes-clean-on-norton-rootkit.html).

At least their motives don't bother me so much. Sony was deliberately trying to hid its actions from the user to protect Sony's interests; Symantec was protecting the user from himself.

Makes one wonder if the people coding their AV product talk to the people doing the Utilities.

It seems a shame that they feel they have to go that extent to protect users from themselves. Wouldn't a hidden (to the user, not Windows) folder have done just as well?

Does Symantec's documentation mention they were doing something like this?

Is there any sort of scanner that can scan an entire hard drive without having to rely on Windows telling it where files and folders are? Where it'll do a scan of every byte written onto a hard drive because it's really scanning the physical piece of hardware rather than just what Windows says is there?

[acushla]

Symantec is also in trouble over its use of rootkit technology in its products. Read about it here (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/82136/symantec-comes-clean-on-norton-rootkit.html).
This would seem to be an example of a positive use of the ROOTKIT Technology. Personally I feel it is a disservice that SYMANTEC felt it prudent to reveal (no pun intended) how and why it was using its rootkit.

Prudent in case someone discovered it and used it for malicious purposes. Then heads really would have rolled.

Too bad. Seemed like a sensible idea.

PS I didn't exactly read anywhere that SYMANTEC was in 'trouble'. Looks as if they took it upon themselves to disclose the story.

[Protocol]

PS I didn't exactly read anywhere that SYMANTEC was in 'trouble'. Looks as if they took it upon themselves to disclose the story.
Popular consumer security software vendor Symantec has come a cropper over use of 'rootkit' technology in its products.
The news couldn't have come at a worse time, in the shadow of the Sony rootkit fiasco, which ended in court settlements whereby the music giant offered replacements, refunds and free music in a bid to placate public outcry.

“Symantec has come a cropper” in my language usually means that they are in trouble. But maybe it doesn’t in your country.

[jkrzok]

This would seem to be an example of a positive use of the ROOTKIT Technology.

I really don't see anything positive about hiding ANYTHING from Windows that would cause security software to miss a threat. There are alternatives and besides, exactly how idiot-proof does the Recycle bin have to be anyway? Symantec could easily have put trashed files in a folder with the 'hidden' attribute effectively hiding it from a novice user while leaving it scanable for AV software. Let everyone know it's there and tell users they delete files from there at their own risk.

Imagine deleting a virus and finding that Symantec, a leader in AV software, left a back door allowing the virus to remain on your system. I'd be pi**ed.

[acushla]

“Symantec has come a cropper” in my language usually means that they are in trouble. But maybe it doesn’t in your country.
In the interest of clarity and an exercise in how stories are reported...I see 'Symantec as come a cropper...' (a term I have actually never heard before) is one reporters personal choice of words to report a story concerning Symantecs' revelation of how it was protecting certain files from being accidentally deleted.

Seems to me that Symantec actually avoided a lot of potential trouble by taking this course...and so should be commended for its' decision.

If you know what I mean.

[Protocol]

In the interest of clarity and an exercise in how stories are reported...I see 'Symantec as come a cropper...' (a term I have actually never heard before) is one reporters personal choice of words to report a story concerning Symantecs' revelation of how it was protecting certain files from being accidentally deleted.

Seems to me that Symantec actually avoided a lot of potential trouble by taking this course...and so should be commended for its' decision.

If you know what I mean.
It seems that Symantec had a rethink and decided that it wasn't such a good idea after all. I wonder if they would have changed their minds if the Sony Rootkit hadn't been revealed. My guess is not. :cheeky:

[Todd The Kiwi]

we say to 'come a cropper' too...

[rorythedog]

Here's where it comes from - ROOT (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-com2.htm).

[Protocol]

we say to 'come a cropper' too...
So does acushla now. :silly:

[Todd The Kiwi]

i quite like it that "mate" is getting used more and more often around here
good on ya =)

[acushla]

It seems that Symantec had a rethink and decided that it wasn't such a good idea after all. I wonder if they would have changed their minds if the Sony Rootkit hadn't been revealed. My guess is not. :cheeky:
Let's establish one fact right now: What SONY/BMG did and what SYMANTEC did are two completely different things. Yes they both used 'rootkits' but that's where the similarly ends. SONY/BMG were using a 'rootkit' essentially to spy on you. SYMANTEC purpose was to protect you.

No doubt, when it was revealed through the SONY/BMG fiasco that 'rootkits' posed a greater threat than EITHER company anticipated i.e. Hackers gaining control of your computer, then yes, SYMANTEC did the right thing by stating what they had done and taking immediate steps to rectify the situation.

I doubt very much that SONY/BMG would have revealed their 'rootkit' if it wasn't for the fact that it was discovered by others to be a security risk.

Bottom line...what SONY/BMG did was borne out of evil...what SYMANTEC did was try to protect you from yourself.

Kudos to SYMANTEC for putting the safety of its customers above receiving a little bit of finger wagging from the misinformed who hear the word 'rootkit' and think it only serves one purpose.:cheeky: :)

PS If you've never read R S Surtees Jorrock’s Jaunts and Jollities, you really should try to find a copy. It is absolutely hilarious...people falling off horses everywhere.

[acushla]

Well...this will make them think twice before ever trying anything like that again!!! (sarc)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/23/business/media/23sony.html

[Roj]

Well...this will make them think twice before ever trying anything like that again!!! (sarc)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/23/business/media/23sony.html
Definitely sarcasm. Sony has had twenty years of duplicity, overhyped conning of consumers, questionable products and shady business practices - they're not getting religion any time soon.

[Antman]

Getting back to the point. IF SONY developed an 'interactive' medium which featured life size replicas of Halle Berry or Beyonce (etc.)...I'd be buying one. Regardless of the cost.

I just bought the new Sony InterMe Halle (interactive medium). It gave me the clap.

[Willow of Oz]

Definitely sarcasm. Sony has had twenty years of duplicity, overhyped conning of consumers, questionable products and shady business practices - they're not getting religion any time soon.

Er, I thought that was religion :cyclops:

[madjo]

Definitely sarcasm. Sony has had twenty years of duplicity, overhyped conning of consumers, questionable products and shady business practices - they're not getting religion any time soon.
History will repeat itself with the launch of the PS3.

[acushla]

I just bought the new Sony InterMe Halle (interactive medium). It gave me the clap.Halle and a night at the Hilton....$450....Dinner for two with Champagne.....$1200.00...one shot of penicillin...priceless.

[acushla]

Er, I thought that was religion :cyclops:Good one!

[acushla]

The middle of the end...?

SONY (http://today.reuters.com/stocks/QuoteCompanyNewsArticle.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2006-06-30T041212Z_01_T163440_RTRIDST_0_TECH-SONY-UPDATE-1.XML&rpc=66)