It is my fervent wish that folks help the victims of Katrina...

[Roj]

...in any way they can.

America has a long history of helping those in need around the globe. We should not desert her now. It is my understanding that Canada stands ready to help as best we can, awaiting a signal from U.S. authorities as to when and where.

I'm very glad that Canada is doing this; other countries can and should do no less.

[acushla]

I'm very glad that Canada is doing this; other countries can and should do no less.

Perhaps we can send them some of our softwood lumber so they can build some shelters.

Wait a minute...oh that's right...they would probably tax us for that as well.

[jkrzok]

Perhaps we can send them some of our softwood lumber so they can build some shelters.

Wait a minute...oh that's right...they would probably tax us for that as well.

Screw 'em. :grimreape

I'll remember that next time Toronto asks for snowplowing help from Buffalo. Or the western provinces need help fighting forest fires, or...

All of a sudden hundreds, perhaps thousands are dead with many more to follow. A major world-wide cultural center has been wiped off the Earth and you're worried about some piddley ass trade dispute.

Your post shows poor judgement.

[Inthewoods]

Perhaps we can send them some of our softwood lumber so they can build some shelters.

Wait a minute...oh that's right...they would probably tax us for that as well.

Screw 'em. :grimreapeThank's so very much for the empathy. Poor judgement indeed. I truly pity you.

[acushla]

Your post shows poor judgement.

I suppose in retrospect it does. Truth be told I knew it was in poor judgement when I made it.

I was trying to make a point. In fact I returned to the forum hoping nobody had posted a response. I wanted to make an edit by adding that since you have 5 BILLION of our money from what has been repeatably judged as an illegal tax, then perhaps we would 'give' you that to help out.

Please understand, I meant no disrespect and if I had to do it all over again...I wouldn't.

You may find this hard to believe but I have been so incrediably busy that other than knowing there was a storm...I know nothing else. Nothing else. I have not had any media on at all...just the comedy station on XstreamRadio.

Judging from what you have written it sounds as if it was very, very serious.

It is no excuse of course, but perhaps if I had known the extend of it's force it might not have even occured to me to try to make political gain out of such devasation.

I am sincerely sorry.

[Shadowraven]

You can do the most help by giving to your local Red Cross chapter for their disaster relief efforts. This is the biggest operation that they have ever mounted according to them.

You can give by going to their website at: Red Cross (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&si=1&oi=smap&q=http://www.redcross.org/donate/donate.html) or by dialing 1-800-HELPNOW

I plan to give, lets all try to help them out.


Good thing there is no such thing as Global Warming, right Dubya? Sorry, but my anger with his stupidity is causing me to say this here. Especially since so far he has been concentrating on the wrong folks and not the ones who really need the help. At least that is what I've heard so far.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

What i dont understand is how could New Orleans have turned into a place were anarchy rules the day? I thought the National Guard would be a bit quicker to prevent that. I send of course my condolences to the innocent and victims of the disaster. But it would indeed appear that this city, a 'second Venice' is still far from being immune to the forces of nature. I would suggest that the whole coast line should be cleared of housing and that the people should consider living farther inland above sea level. I wonder if New Orleans hires dutch engineers... :paranoid:

[Todd The Kiwi]

man i saw some freaky news footage at lunchtime today
a cop is pointing his shotgun at some punks head insisting that he "drop it"
i've only ever seen stuff like that in movies aye :hurt:


looting sucks...

[Roj]

Perhaps we can send them some of our softwood lumber so they can build some shelters.

Wait a minute...oh that's right...they would probably tax us for that as well.
Sour grapes have no place in this thread, mon. I'm disappointed - I expected better from you.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I wonder if New Orleans hires dutch engineers... :paranoid:

Yup, it's in the news. "Nederland biedt New Orleans 'dijkinspectieteam' (http://www.nu.nl/news.jsp?n=583481&c=22&rss)" meaning "The Netherlands offers New Orleans a dyke inspection team".

In addition, France and Germany also offer humanitarian help.

[hedge]

Check this out: http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/
Live blog from guys sitting through all this mess, along with plenty of pics... looting galore. It really is sad, especially when it sounds like the police forces themselves did some of the worst stuff.

[BALTY]

http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/hurricane_katrina/?cnn=yes

{{{{It is no excuse of course, but perhaps if I had known the extend of it's force it might not have even occured to me to try to make political gain out of such devasation}}}}}
I forgive you D1. Your apology seems sincere!

My issue is an American in here that has digs against Americans that are meaningless, and senseless (especially over a worldwide site - Shame on him!).
Maybe only physically protesting on foreign soil as an American would be worse.
I wouldn't mind as much if the bitching were to me or other Americans... but...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We have freedom of speech, but with that comes better judgment and some sense of responsibility too.
I don't know, maybe I should have sent this in a private message, like I've been meaning to for such a long time.
Maybe this will show how someone can look (un-patriotic) towards their given country (no matter how disgruntled they may be), and keep it "in-house" as it were.

[madjo]

...in any way they can.

America has a long history of helping those in need around the globe. We should not desert her now. It is my understanding that Canada stands ready to help as best we can, awaiting a signal from U.S. authorities as to when and where.

I'm very glad that Canada is doing this; other countries can and should do no less.hmm actually wasn't Bush actively saying that the USA doesn't need any help from abroad, and that they can solve this by themselves just fine... at least I seem to remember seeing something like that from the news...

But i do hope that other countries will ignore him, pitch in and help out. And that the people in the hit areas can go home soon.

[Roj]

What i dont understand is how could New Orleans have turned into a place were anarchy rules the day?
Ever read "Lord Of The Flies" by William Golding? There is a VERY thin veneer of civilization on the beast that is mankind. It doesn't take much to strip it off.

[acushla]

http://www.time.com/time/photo essays/hurricane_katrina/?cnn=yes

{{{{It is no excuse of course, but perhaps if I had known the extend of it's force it might not have even occurred to me to try to make political gain out of such devastation}}}}}
I forgive you D1. Your apology seems sincere!



Thank you...it was sincere.

After the little fiasco I decided that perhaps I should turn on some news to find out what was happening.

I was truly shocked and amazed. Nothing had prepared me for what I saw...so many images...but all those people living in the Superdome and the lootinggoing on stand out..as well as the stories the survivors were telling.

If I tell you that I am deeply ashamed of my action I am not telling you enough.

[Roj]

Nothing had prepared me for what I saw...so many images...
You may have lived in the Carribean but until you've been through even a lesser hurricane... well...

There is a reason our home in Jamaica was a bungalow built like a Berlin bunker by a naval architect on higher ground with five tons of steel latticework in the ROOF alone. The results of a hurricane can be most un-pretty - I'll never forget the first-hand results of hurricane Flora or "Flora Flood" as she was called (I was just a kid). And bear in mind that Katrina downgraded to a CAT3 (I prayed for a miracle and literally got one - she was originally a CAT5) before she hit.

My heart goes out to those poor people.

[Inthewoods]

If you're thinking about contributing to the Katrina relief effort, please be aware that, sadly, there are a lot of email scammers trying to prey on people's generosity. I'm guessing this is probably obvious to most of you, but it's just a reminder. The best way to help, IMO, is to be proactive and contact your local Red Cross or similar organization.

Be wary of anyone who approches you asking for money. The same thing happened after 9/11, and the scammers bilked people for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Toe]

http://www.illwillpress.com/kat.html

[Sheepeh]

We should all remember that people are people no matter who their government is. Having said that...I do stop to think about the people in major third world countries FAR worse off than people hit by the storm for decades, yet they see much less genorosity, typically. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be donating and doing all we can for the poor sods who were caught up in this, but we should also remember things like this are the tip of the iceberg in the grand scheme of things.

I personally donate to a few random charities that I feel worth it every month (just a little, but it helps) and this months has understandably gone to the American Red Cross.

My company, Makro, has also had a fundraiser day at each store done entirely by volunteer staff, and the company has pledged to match whatever we raise again. My store raised something like £13,000 in one day. I've done my bit...can you say you have?

[BALTY]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



As for the south side of Dixie, and other disaster-ridden places around the world, The Red Cross is a good one to contact. Yes, contact them - don't fall for e-mail scams. http://www.redcross.org/

[Todd The Kiwi]

my apologies but i thought this
dyke inspection teamwas hell funny :cheeky:

[acushla]

I am somewhat hesitent to add anything to this thread at all...however..I seem to recollect the Red Cross being severely criticized after September 11th. Specifically for the fact that so little of the money collected actually ended up where it should have....and even then after a long time.

It was also revealed that they built themselves a new headquarters as well as new computers and office equipment. When it was exposed they justified their actions by claiming that the people who donated that money would understand that the new building etc. would help The Red Cross to better deal with future disasters.I believe there was such outage that many people who had donated demanded their money be returned.

Find more here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,38212,00.html

Even before all of that I know that the Red Cross was shown to be paying their top members of the board outrageous salary's which coupled with operating expenses meant that something like 10cents out of every dollar donated actually wound up going to victims relief.

There was a documentary about all of this which had the effect of my vowing to myself I would never give money to the Red Cross.

Since that time I have always wondered about the feasibility of somehow sending money directly to the victims...meaning that one family would be directly helped.

It is a little bit like instead of adopting a child through one of these agencies one might be better served by doing a little research and contacting say a church, who would redirect your money to a child in want. That way ALL the money gets used for the purpose it was intended for.

[Shewolf]

I'm apalled at how slowly an ineficiently Bush is dealing with this.
I'm also shocked and saddened by the idiotic shootings and the continuing crimes.

My thoughts go out to those suffering.

[BALTY]

Since that time I have always wondered about the feasibility of somehow sending money directly to the victims...meaning that one family would be directly helped.

Yes If I were a billionaire.....

It is a little bit like instead of adopting a child through one of these agencies one might be better served by doing a little research and contacting say a church, who would redirect your money to a child in want. That way ALL the money gets used for the purpose it was intended for.


Who knows. All organizations give only a fraction of the money back into any given project. Some more so than others. It's a given. And the RC is a very big Org.
Hope the Red cross has the resources from 9/11 to weather this storm!

Those Governors and local elected offcials have resouces too, but couldn't come through as Mayor Giuliani did in NY, because of the more difficult situation there. Or we'd be praising them as well!

P.S. -Government has just as big of overhead (if not more) as a private org.
We know what taxes are!
P.S.2-Government agencies, like law enforcements agencies, have jurisdictions. One agency can't step on any other without being asked for help. I know those hit hardest did ask. But it was Alabama, and Mississippi first hit the hardest, and who asked for help first. Resources were diverted (after being focused there) to N.O. after the levy broke. Yes it still took to long. But with anarchy, no easily accessible roads, it's just a tough situation.



#############################

P.S.
May I be so lucky to be your 2000th post response? :cheeky:

[Roj]

I'm concerned. I look at the news and I see promises of 20,000 people who should be there helping and those on the scene see no sign of them. I see a President who doesn't seem to be ramping up aid to probably the worst disaster in North American history. From our perspective, I see Canadian relief helpers who have been sitting on the tarmac ready to go for five days now, awaiting word from American authorities - and no word is being given. I see raping, looting and violence in a city where civilization is breaking down rapidly and no one stepping in to stop it.

What's the problem here? Are my perceptions incorrect? Is it false pride on the part of American politicians? Is it administrative incompetence? New York had Rudy Juliani when 911 came so Bush didn't really have to do much but this is FAR wore than 911 and no leadership is being displayed by the White House.

If a similar thing happened in Canada and Paul Martin took the course of action that Bush seems to be currently displaying, there would be hell to pay. People are in serious trouble here - where is the help???

This is not intended as a political flame but rather vehement concern for people in desperate need of assistance who aparrently are not receiving any.

[biggman15]

If a similar thing happened in Canada and Paul Martin took the course of action that Bush seems to be currently displaying, there would be hell to pay. People are in serious trouble here - where is the help???

This is not intended as a political flame but rather vehement concern for people in desperate need of assistance who aparrently are not receiving any.

From What I've Noticed, People here Are More Worried About How there Getting To Work... That's just how it seems to be... Gas Prices are already getting more Press time.... I know I didn't hear about anything but Gas on the News Tonight....

Edit: There's Gas in the News Right Now.... /Edit

[Toe]

It took about 4 days before the National Guard rolled in. We're talking about a city on our own soil. It's not like they didn't have warning. The tsunami happened in a matter of hours. We knew this hurricane was coming days before it hit. They should have been there almost immediately. 24 hours, tops. 4 days is fucking inexcusable.

[acushla]

What's the problem here?

What's the problem? How about we dispense with the niceties and say it out loud. They are black...black and poor..

Do you think for one moment that had all these people been white that they wouldn't have started to received aid within 24 hours?

It has been pointed out that whenever images were shown of black people coming out of stores with goods...they were 'looting'...however...when images of white people were shown coming out of stores...they had been 'looking for food'. What else needs to be said?

I actually heard people in Congress say that really it was their own fault as they had been warned before the Hurricane to leave! The total arrogance...people who can barely afford food on a day to day basis are expected to buy a train ticket, a bus ticket...whatever...to go where?

As far as Canadian soldiers sitting on the tarmac ready to go...yes...it IS pride that prevents them from going. The US is loath to appear as if they need help from outside...which is too bad because perhaps they would learn something about humanity and they would start to work with the rest of the world instead of believing they are somehow unique and live in a different universe.

If you know what I mean.

What I found interesting is how 10 years ago scientists were warning about the consequences of the rapidly disappearing wet lands which act to buffer New Orleans from the effects of major storms by absorbing a lot of the moisture like a thick carped. It was disappearing at the rate of 1 football field every hour.

Three years ago the White House looked at the levy which protects New Orleans from within the wetlands and was told that it should be reinforced as any wind above 118 mph was going to destroy it. The White House decided they really didn't have the money as so much is tied up in Iraq.

PBS reported yesterday that as soon as it was obvious that winds were going to exceed that the White House should have responded by bringing in reinforcements immediately.

And of course there is more.

I believe all of these factors...but most importantly the lack of aid... could be viewed as a criminal act of gross negligence.

[acushla]

May I be so lucky to be your 2000th post response? :cheeky:

Well...here it is. You deserve it as I wasn't aware that I had reached that juncture...I'm just not counting.

So thank you for pointing it out to me.

On to 3000!

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

From what i've heard in America events and incidents are first dealt at state level and only then at national level. This may partially explain the delay in help being offered. I agree Bush has once again showed his apparent inability to deal with disasters and that Iraq and oil seems to be more important to him than his own citizens. I'm sure you've all heard the major of New Orleans speak out on this matter. Man'was he pissed off, but apparently is now nevertheless grateful that Bush came at last to the disaster area.

The problem of no petrol is also felt here in Europe and in the Netherlands. 1 litre of petrol costs over 1,54 euro! It's insane. What's even more crazy is that Europe is willing to give the USA petrol! How can it come this far? I think Americans should seriously consider driving cars that consume much less than 1 litre per 3 km. No offense.

[biggman15]

1 litre per 3 km

Your Making Me Feel stupid again... Searching for some form of Converter... :(

[Todd The Kiwi]

this (http://www.joshmadison.com/software/convert/) piece of software is wicked, i use it all the time when dealing with americans.

[Roj]

It took about 4 days before the National Guard rolled in. We're talking about a city on our own soil. It's not like they didn't have warning. The tsunami happened in a matter of hours. We knew this hurricane was coming days before it hit. They should have been there almost immediately. 24 hours, tops. 4 days is fucking inexcusable.
What you said is exactly what I don't understand. Up here, we heard "hurricane" and immediately volunteers started showing up. It took about a day. A communique was dispatched to Washington indicating our willingness and immediate readiness to help and...

...nothing.

The guy didn't even interrupt his holiday. :(

[Roj]

From what i've heard in America events and incidents are first dealt at state level and only then at national level.

This isn't a bee sting - it's a freaking Act Of God. You'd think the Federal level would take it seriously.

[madjo]

Your Making Me Feel stupid again... Searching for some form of Converter... :(
don't drive cars that run 3 miles per gallon.. :) (aka American cars) :bandit:

[Toe]

They are black...black and poor..

Do you think for one moment that had all these people been white that they wouldn't have started to received aid within 24 hours?
I honestly don't think that race has all that much to do with it, not nearly as much as the 'poor' part, anyway. And even that, I don't think played into this nearly as much as the fact that our government is a bunch of colossal fuckups. Bush & his goons in particular, but in a lot of ways the entire government.

"Hm, well, it's been 2 days now since NOLA has been through the shitstorm, guess maybe I could cut my vacation a little short & maybe fly over the place from a safe distance, that should appease the peasants..."

I actually heard people in Congress say that really it was their own fault as they had been warned before the Hurricane to leave! The total arrogance...people who can barely afford food on a day to day basis are expected to buy a train ticket, a bus ticket...whatever...to go where?
Another thing is that a lot of Americans don't realize just how many people, even working-class people, don't own a car. There's a certain mentality that unless you're completely homeless & living in a cardboard box, you've almost certainly got at least some sort of a car. And that of course is simply not true.

EDIT: Still, though, I partly agree. Yes, there's plenty of people who genuinely could not get out. But there's probably at least as many dumbshits who could have left but just said "Oh, we'll just ride it out. We'll be OK." I hate to sound callous, but in this case it's like a drunk driver who wrecks their car. Yes it's bad, but you got yourself into this fucking mess. But for both, what's worse is those around them that they hurt. I've heard quite a few reports where children/teens/etc wanted to go, but their parents made them stay. You have to feel bad in that case.

From what i've heard in America events and incidents are first dealt at state level and only then at national level.
Something on this level, no. There's two national-level agencies in particular that are supposed to be on top of things like this almost immediately: the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and the National Guard, which is basicly a branch of our military that never leaves our territory. One of the biggest problems is that there has been almost no coordination between those agencies, other national government groups, and state and local authorities (not to mention non-government groups like the Red Cross). They were basicly arguing about what should be done, and in effect getting nothing done. As the mayor of New Orleans put it, "We've got too many goddamn cooks in the kitchen."

FEMA got there and they got shot at. The National Guard should have already been there, maybe not anticipating the chaos in the streets that took hold, but they should have been there sandbagging the levees, or at the very least ready to do so immediately afterward. But as stated earlier, they didn't get there until 4 days afterward.

[Toe]

For the conspiracy theorists out there (and by no means am I one of them, nor do I believe this), one thing I've heard mentioned is that for the insurance companies & such, it's actually cheaper for them to just let the people die than to go out & save them & have to pay them off.

[jkrzok]

The whole 'waiting for the states to ask for help' thing is mute. Bush issued a federal disaster declaration for Louisiana and Mississippi on SUNDAY, the day before Katrina struck. The federal government didn't have to wait.

I think we're seeing the real meaning of 'compassionate conservatism.'

I imagine that it never entered some rich white man's head that a poor black would be unable to evacuate. I mean doesn't everyone have a car? And several hundred dollars of ready cash to pay for gas and a hotel room?

110,000 people in New Orleans make less than $8,000 a year.

People below the Republican radar.

I bet not a one of them voted for Bush.

Do you believe that the Federal response would have been faster if Florida was hit?

[jkrzok]

On Friday the evacuation of the Superbowl was halted so that 700 guests and employees of the Hyatt hotel could jump the line and be evacuated first.

This despite the fact that Hyatt people were in a much better situation than those at the Superbowl.

The National Guard blocked off the Superbowl people as they helped the better dressed Hyatt crowd with their luggage.

I don't imagine race or income had anything to do with this. Do you?

[Toe]

Here's a nice glimpse into the bullshit:

Mr Bush said on Wednesday that no one had anticipated the breach of the levees that protect New Orleans from flooding. But Lieutenant-General Carl Strock, commander of the Army Corps of Engineers, said the military and the Federal Emergency Management Agency had ordered the evacuation of New Orleans precisely because the levees were not designed to withstand a category five hurricane.
source: "http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=FT&Date=20050902&ID=5084282""
I could have told him that, it was mentioned plenty of times before it hit that the NO levees weren't built for that. If he hadn't been sitting on his ass at his vacation home the whole time he might have heard it too...

[Antman]

America has a high tolerance for black, red, brown and yellow pain.

How many dead Iraqis does it cost to save one black American?

[jkrzok]

Did you know that the Federal official in charge of New Orleans relief has no prior experience in disaster relief?

That his last private sector job involved overseeing horse shows? A job where he was actually asked to resign?

Yet FEMA director Mike Brown had friends in high places, namely his college roomate. That his prior experience as a Republican activist was all that was needed to run FEMA.

A guy that can't even competently run a f*cking horse show runs FEMA.

[Toe]

Couple more bits from the mayor of NO:

And one of the things people -- nobody's talked about this. Drugs flowed in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely it was scary to me, and that's why we were having the escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it.

You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city looking for a fix, and that's the reason why they were breaking in hospitals and drugstores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will.

And right now, they don't have anything to take the edge off. And they've probably found guns. So what you're seeing is drug-starving crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wrecking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city and form a perimeter around them and hope to God that we're not overrun.

(more or less directed at the national government)
I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.

Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.

[Sheepeh]

That guy, make him President. Now.

At least he's not some goddamn pussy afraid of telling it like it is.

Well done that man.

[Toe]

He's got my vote.

[Inthewoods]

don't drive cars that run 3 miles per gallon.. :) (aka American cars) :bandit:Ignorance is bliss (I guess...shrug)

[Inthewoods]

I believe all of these factors...but most importantly the lack of aid... could be viewed as a criminal act of gross negligence.What about lack of aid from those who's attitude is "Screw 'em"? Or is that not a crime because it came from outside US borders?

Roj was right when he said at the beginning of the thread "America has a long history of helping those in need around the globe." But a good deal of that help has come from individuals and organizations in the private sector. And think about this. When the American Government does step in to help those in need, just where does everybody think all those billions of dollars come from? Yep, that's right, from American citizens in the fprm of taxes.

It's hardly news, it's been going on for years. The reason? Americans are, for the most part, a generous and caring bunch of folks, and whether people outside this country believe that or not is something I couldn't care less about.

However, now this whole tragedy has become a freaking sideshow. Fingerpointers from all over the globe "The American government screwed up"..."the Red Cross is corrupt"..."These Americans over here aren't doing enough to help those other Americans over there"...."screw em". I'm not saying that the comments are untrue, just that they are not helping those who are trying their best to do the right things, and they sure as hell aren't doing a damn thing to help the victims.

Newsflash: For some of us, the reality is all too real. I have friends down there working in the devastated areas. A friend's cousin died in New Orleans. I work for a Service Bureau deeply involved with the insurance industry. Today I worked 14 hours for the 8th day in a row. I'm strung out and tired. But I know how it feels to help people, it feels damn good. I just wish the finger pointers would quit criticizing the mistakes being made by well meaning people and just DO SOMETHING proactive.

I apologize if I rambled a bit here, as I said, I'm over tired. Thanks for letting me vent a bit, I needed to.

[acushla]

For the conspiracy theorists out there (and by no means am I one of them, nor do I believe this), one thing I've heard mentioned is that for the insurance companies & such, it's actually cheaper for them to just let the people die than to go out & save them & have to pay them off.

Don't be so quick to dismiss this idea.

It has been stated by many doctors (among others) that the reason there are such long waiting periods for surgery and the like in Canada is that it saves the government money if you die before getting the necessary treatment.

Health care in Canada will be the number one issue in the next election.

[acushla]

What about lack of aid from those who's attitude is "Screw 'em"? Or is that not a crime because it came from outside US borders?


I cannot be certain that you read some of the posts that I made since my first one.

In them I try to make it clear that I had absolutely no idea as to what was going on.

My statement was a response to Roj's comment about 'good neighbours'...something that immediately angered me as I feel very strongly about the whole softwood lumber issue as well as the ban on Canadiian beef...a ban that went on far longer than it should have, driven by the greed of whatever the organization of the American Beef Producers is called.

I based those comments believing that people's whose life's had been disrupted and suffered loss through a 'storm' was no different from people whose lives and livelihood had been devastated by the willful disregard of International laws and the greed of people whose attitude toward Canadians was 'screw 'em'. It was a statement made out of anger.

Good neighbour's to me is not a one way street.

When I finally turned on the TV and saw the same thing you knew when you read my first post...I was sincerely sorry and deeply ashamed by my post. I assure you, had I known what was going on, it would not have even occurred to me to write such an ignorant and uncaring statement.

I simply didn't know, and I am truly, truly sorry.

[acushla]

Ignorance is bliss (I guess...shrug)

I don't think this is such an ignorant statement.

Did you know it takes 11 gallons of oil to keep a 60 watt light bulb going for a year? Think of all the oil that would not be used if everybody turned off lights and appliances when not being used. If nobody bothered with Christmas displays...which simply add to our dependence on oil from Saudi and the rest of the Middle East.

If all the large pickup trucks and gas guzzling cars were traded in for smaller more fuel efficient models the US would be doing themselves one big favour.

I actually heard a survivor on CBS say how he was going to buy a solar car. If only more would think like this.

Ignorance...no...visionary...yes.

[Roj]

What's the problem? How about we dispense with the niceties and say it out loud. They are black...black and poor..
My wife came to the same conclusion. I concur. As you say, if the majority were white and affluent, the situation would be entirely different. It's the only conclusion I can draw, given that aid wouldn't have far to travel to reach New Orleans. It certainly didn't have far to go to reach New York on 911 and got there pretty quickly (within hours).

[Inthewoods]

I don't think this is such an ignorant statement.I was refering to the statement that American cars get 3 MPG....sheeeesh

[acushla]

I was referring to the statement that American cars get 3 MPG....sheeeesh

Oh.

In which case facetious is probably the word you were looking for. :)

[Inthewoods]

Oh.

In which case facetious is probably the word you were looking for. :)

No, the word I was "looking for" was the word I used, which is why I used it.

[acushla]

No, the word I was "looking for" was the word I used, which is why I used it.

I know...just messin' with you. :)

[biggman15]

This Just Seems to Fit Here somehow....

PayPal Blocks Hurricane Relief Funds
http://www.betanews.com/article/PayPal_Blocks_Hurricane_Relief_Funds/1125880826

[Toe]

Or, direct from the source: http://www.somethingawful.com/

(newest posts on top, you might start reading from the bottom of the page)

[Toe]

C&P from the New Orleans Times-Picayune:

An open letter to the President

Dear Mr. President:

We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, "What is not working, we're going to make it right."

Please forgive us if we wait to see proof of your promise before believing you. But we have good reason for our skepticism.

Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It's accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.

How much easier it is to access in 2005 now that there are interstates and bridges, airports and helipads, cruise ships, barges, buses and diesel-powered trucks.

Despite the city's multiple points of entry, our nation's bureaucrats spent days after last week's hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city's stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies.

Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city.

Television reporters were doing live reports from downtown New Orleans streets. Harry Connick Jr. brought in some aid Thursday, and his efforts were the focus of a "Today" show story Friday morning.

Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach.

We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame.

Mayor Ray Nagin did the right thing Sunday when he allowed those with no other alternative to seek shelter from the storm inside the Louisiana Superdome. We still don't know what the death toll is, but one thing is certain: Had the Superdome not been opened, the city's death toll would have been higher. The toll may even have been exponentially higher.

It was clear to us by late morning Monday that many people inside the Superdome would not be returning home. It should have been clear to our government, Mr. President. So why weren't they evacuated out of the city immediately? We learned seven years ago, when Hurricane Georges threatened, that the Dome isn't suitable as a long-term shelter. So what did state and national officials think would happen to tens of thousands of people trapped inside with no air conditioning, overflowing toilets and dwindling amounts of food, water and other essentials?

State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn't have but two urgent needs: "Buses! And gas!" Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.

In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn't known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, "We've provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they've gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day."

Lies don't get more bald-faced than that, Mr. President.

Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, "You're doing a heck of a job."

That's unbelievable.

There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.

We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We're no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia. Our people deserved to be rescued.

No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced. Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn't be reached.

Mr. President, we sincerely hope you fulfill your promise to make our beloved communities work right once again.

When you do, we will be the first to applaud.

[BALTY]

My wife came to the same conclusion. I concur. As you say, if the majority were white and affluent, the situation would be entirely different. It's the only conclusion I can draw, given that aid wouldn't have far to travel to reach New Orleans. It certainly didn't have far to go to reach New York on 911 and got there pretty quickly (within hours).
So let's kill all the Whities!
and Republicans! :dead: See what they stand for? ....
http://zoom.cafepress.com/0/932070_zoom.jpg
Die
die!
\ die!


Truley yours.
Bin Laden :evil:

[Inthewoods]

So let's kill all the Whities!
and Republicans! :dead: See what they stand for? ....

Die
die!
\ die!


Truley yours.
Bin Laden :evil:Thanks Balty, you made my day. I couldn't have expressed it better myself! :cool:

[BALTY]

Sitting around bitching, and preaching, pointing fingers, (when it's still isn't over) isn't getting it done! It's just begun!


Tarps, Ropes
Canned Fruits and Vegetables
Canned Meats
Cleaning Supplies
Purchased Bottled Water
Flashlights and Batteries
Large Garbage Bags
Manual Can Openers
Bug Repellent
Toilet Paper
Paper Towels
Handi Wipes
Baby Formula
Diapers

Call ISOH/IMPACT {International Services Of Hope} at 419.350.3839 -in the US for information
OR
http://www.catholiccharitiesinfo.org/ -WordWide.
This is a great org! Don't get blinded by all the trees in front of the forest.

Let's put our TIME or TREASURE where our big mouths are!

[matty28carter]

I found watching this report on the BBC lastnight pritty grim. My thoughts are with the people around the gulf coast.

BBC News Report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da680024eb0/bb/09012da68002513e_16x9_bb.asx

[BALTY]

Doing the best we can!

[BALTY]

Very good video!I found watching this report on the BBC lastnight pritty grim. My thoughts are with the people around the gulf coast.

BBC News Report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da680024eb0/bb/09012da68002513e_16x9_bb.asx


I know the reporters aren't doctors, shelter providers, or rescue crews. But did they follow through, and say where they took these people? Higher ground I'm sure, but in the end they can walk away. As you know it IS bad there. Even in any disaster in the past, reporters can find those left behind, and help them out on video, [so why can they do this, but not the locals? {Oh those incompetent locals and nationals} There are thousands and thousands of these people (stranded, or refusing to leave).
Each one has their reasons, story, accuse or situations. Law enforcement is trying to keep out people such as you and me, so we can’t even get in there! TV crews can however. The rest of the helping people are overwhelmed (at least in the first week here). It’s a vast territory, bigger than on the news, where we can pass judgment, and then go to bed.

In related news…
OHIO is allowing any refugees to enter the public school system (no questions asked) with out ID, or proof of age, citizenship, etc. They need to just say… “I'm a Hurricane refugee from the south”! Our Republican Governor isn't so bad now is he?
It worries me a bit on the other hand though. One could be from an inter city school from "Anywhere High School", or someone posing as a high school student from anywhere country... be it a run-a-way, or terrorist. Now sit back and ponder the thought(s)! I doubt that anything would seriously go bad, but it does blow a hole the door of today’s “higher security rules” for schools, and all government sites really! Oh how quickly the winds-of-change.

http://www.fema.gov/graphics/storm/an_hurr_small.gif

So now the cat is out of the bag! -- the rumor that America has “streets paved of gold” is not reality, never was. Most working stiffs like me need a paycheck from week to week, as it were!

Doing the best we can!

[acushla]

...and to think that Hurricane season has just begun...

[Roj]

Sitting around bitching, and preaching, pointing fingers, (when it's still isn't over) isn't getting it done!
We're sitting here waiting for Dubya to allow us to go in and help. It's not our country so we can't just march in. What would you suggest that we do? Invade?

[Roj]

...and to think that Hurricane season has just begun...
What???!!!

It's been going on since MAY, which is when it starts every year!

[acushla]

We're sitting here waiting for Dubya to allow us to go in and help. It's not our country so we can't just march in. What would you suggest that we do? Invade?

Actually I think we're there. Finally.

Did you read the story about the two Canadian journalists in New Orleans who very quickly found themselves in the middle of a gun battle between Police and two 'suspects'?

In the middle of everything going on around them...and dodging bullets, they kept themselves in the proximity of the police all the while taking photographs.

Apparently the Police managed to apprehend the suspects at which point the Canadians witnessed a savage and brutal assault on the two men which resulted in one of men defecating in his pants.

The journalists were back in their car and heading off when the Police suddenly realized that somebody had photos of what had just gone down.

They ordered them to get out of the car or be shot right there and then. Upon exiting the vehicle one of the Policemen ripped the camera from around the photographers neck with such force that the neck strap broke. He then fumbled around with it before finally tearing the 'memory card' out and destroying it.

Read full story here:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125611421477&call_pageid=1125655395608&col=1125655395645


This was reported in the Toronto Star...the newspaper the two work for.

[Roj]

Read full story here:
Whaddya expect? Redneck Southern cops. Had my own issues with them a time or two when I lived in Miami. I see nothing notable has changed.

[acushla]

What???!!!

It's been going on since MAY, which is when it starts every year!

Amazing what one gets when they watch FOX News...can't even get the weather right!

Just kidding...actually it was CNN where I got that...I suppose the main point is that the season has a few more months to go.

Is it possible that just because Hurricane season begins in May...those have no effect on the US...it's only later in the year when they have to start to worry?

As I recall the story... the newscasters were actually commenting on how it came earlier this year...which gave rise to the concern for the future...in other words this Hurricane came earlier than expected.

That's what I heard.

[Roj]

As I recall the story... the newscasters were actually commenting on how it came earlier this year...
'tis true. They started picking names extra early due to the predictions that it would be a bad one. And it has been. As for myself, true to form (as it happened last year), I arrived in the Carribean on the heels of one and left just ahead of one snapping at my butt. I do hope my luck doesn't run out - that's three times now.

[BALTY]

We're sitting here waiting for Dubya to allow us to go in and help. It's not our country so we can't just march in. What would you suggest that we do? Invade?

For such an intelligent.............Ñ%û‼..and a venue....°#↔8ë�..... to be...▌ƒ¶∩○.....½ witted........... ₧┐>... us?..Y«hÜ.▬└ ..... can't believe... .....Ü#%MÜτ..invade this....²ó#M7ª.... said..

OK I'm OK
We need to chill a bit...Well, maybe just me...
Perhaps more people could have helped. Or maybe cause more chaos in the process! Remember they were ordering everyone OUT! A few thugs taking advantage, shooting up the place.

We are all frustrated. We all care. We all want to help, and feel as though we can't.

But it appears everyone thinks BIG BROTHER has to do everything, and when he doesn't he's a bad BROTHER! But where was all the local help. All three of those states have local militia, rescue personnel, all this Federal funded anti-terrorist equipment, on top of the everyday crews. But the bottom line is, as I stated ... people had the hardest time, for such of vast area to cover, to do any bulk rescuing that quickly. Seriously, are we talking 100s of thousands of stranded and misplaced people? No "home base" for most people, and organizations to setup camp. No power. Bad drinking water.. Hey, where do I take a dump again? What a mess!

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/evilgrin/evilgrin0010.gif But let's use this sad situation [(natural disaster)- but that's Bush's fault too, by causing Global warming] as a springboard to bash Bush. Like him or hate him this round of bashing is a stretch.

You know ○çí►_ä well there are avenues now to contribute for those that can't get "IN" as you say. But do what you gotta do!
.
.
.

[Roj]

[QUOTE=BALTY]For such an intelligent.............Ñ%û‼..and a venue....°#↔8ë�..... to be...▌ƒ¶∩○.....½ witted........... ₧┐>...Y«hÜ.▬└ ..... can't believe .....Ü#%MÜτ..invade this....²ó#M7ª.... said..

OK I'm OK
We need to chill a bit...Well maybe just me...
Perhaps more people could have helped. Or maybe cause more chaos in the process! Remember they were ordering everyone OUT! A few thugs taking advantage, shooting up the place.

Well, I'm not OK. I'm from the Carribean. I have a bit of a handle on what these folks are going through, having been through a couple of near misses in my childhood when I lived in St. Andrew, Jamaica.

You know, it's kind of strange. On 911 a major terrorist act caused mayhem in one of the biggest cities on earth. Help was IMMEDIATELY forthcoming form EVERYWHERE. A mayor that no one expected to be able to deal with the crisis took control and made it fly. Planes were re-reouted into Canada because they had nowhere else to land. Rescue workers poured in to help those locally and all moved heaven and earth. Order was preserved. It was awful and it was wonderful.

Now we have a disaster, again in the same country. Help takes forever to get there. Barbara Bush makes surprising comments on how the disaster might be a step up for the less-than-affluent citizens of the city when they are relocated. Everyone is ordered out because there is no way to control the situation and civilization has completely broken down. The cops are behaving like thugs too. It takes a week for Canada, one of America's staunchest allies in most corcumstances to even get clearance to land with volunteer aid. The mayor of New Orleans screams blue bloody murder - no one listens.

This isn't a case of frustration. This is an observation of blatant mismanagement and an obvious "don't care" attitude by the elite because after all, this isn't New York, the crown jewel of the United States but rather a place where the disadvantaged live and where being evacuated to Houston is aparrently a step up according to a former First Lady (I could not believe my mutha-freakin' ears at that one).

Let's cut the bullshit (and yes, this is the first time EVER that I've sworn in print).

Big Brother simply doesn't care.

All you have to do is contrast the response to 911 with this debacle where the body count is predicted to rise above ten thousand.

If this disgrace happened in Canada, I don't care who's in power - there would be a massive public outcry and the opposition (and a LOT of Canadians) would be clamoring that we fire the son of a bitch.

Right AFTER we dealt with the situation.

Where's the public outcry?

Where's tho opposition clamoring for action to be taken?

Where's the massive outpouring of aid and restoration of civililty that was characteristic of 911?

Why do so few politicians of either side give a shit?

The answer is outlined in neon by Barbara Bush's comments which is why firing George W. wouldn't solve the problem..

[acushla]

Big Brother simply doesn't care.



If this disgrace happened in Canada, I don't care who's in power - there would be a massive public outcry and the opposition (and a LOT of Canadians) would be clamoring that we fire the son of a bitch.



Big Brother doesn't care because, among other things, none of them vote Republican.

I strongly disagree with your assessment of what we Canadians would do given the same situation. It's noble to expect the best of us...but nothing in our recent past would indicate that we would deviate from our placid acceptance of whatever our Government does (sponsorship scandal) or doesn't do (assert our position with the softwood lumber and beef ban).

Have you really discussed any of these issues with those people around you?

At best they give lip service to a pro-active position...but it would never evolve into actually doing anything.

Which is why it continues. :depressed

[Roj]

Big Brother doesn't care because, among other things, none of them vote Republican.

I don't see the Democrats creating a fuss either.

I strongly disagree with your assessment of what we Canadians would do given the same situation. It's noble to expect the best of us...but nothing in our recent past would indicate that we would deviate from our placid acceptance of whatever our Government does (sponsorship scandal) or doesn't do (assert our position with the softwood lumber and beef ban).

That's, for lack of a better descriptional, not life and death. It's just politics. New Orleans is life and death. Big difference.

Have you really discussed any of these issues with those people around you?

No, not really. Yeah, there's another guvvy scandal - there be many such. Yeah, we're getting screwed by NAFTA - big hairy deal, that's nothing new. But tsunamis and hurricanes that's a different ballgame. Death is kind of final, devastation immediate and far-reaching. I guess you could call me jaded as far as bureauocratic (I always have trouble spelling this word) BS goes.

At best they give lip service to a pro-active position...but it would never evolve into actually doing anything.

Like I said: paper crap. *yawn*. Nobody died. Yeah, there's outrage. There's also a real sense that we can't do anything about it. Aid to people in distress - that's something we feel we can do something about.

Which is why it continues.

It always will - that's politics, in any country.

[BALTY]

You go Roj.


Now that D1 has well over 2000 post I see you're really going to town again! :cheeky:

Just ribbin' ya!



Well, I'm not OK. . - I hope don't mean mentally like I did!

Anyway... on this matter. All-in-all there WAS a slow response. Congress will be looking into it (along with all the watchdogs).

My issue is that it's sooooo obvious that there are those in the larch waiting for something like this,,, to jump all over big government.
My ideological position is LESS big government, and more for smaller ones (collectively still of course- simply "republics"), as in the UNITED STATES. I think Canada should be UNITED PROVIDENCES of N. AMERICA or something like that! (or of the Queen he ha he). Hell, Quebec has their own set of rules it seems anyway.

On a serious note: Sitting around bitching, and preaching, pointing fingers, (when it's still isn't over) isn't getting it done! It's just begun!

again I asks of you... if not only prayers….

Tarps, Ropes
Canned Fruits and Vegetables
Canned Meats
Cleaning Supplies
Purchased Bottled Water
Flashlights and Batteries
Large Garbage Bags
Manual Can Openers
Bug Repellent
Toilet Paper
Paper Towels
Handi Wipes
Baby Formula
Diapers
cots
These two organizations have not been in the news for squandering moneys to the poor.


Call ISOH/IMPACT {International Services Of Hope} at 419.350.3839 -in the US for information - These are the guys who also help third-world childern passage to the US for surgical operations, where none are available in their country.
OR
http://www.catholiccharitiesinfo.org/ -WordWide.

[Roj]

Now that D1 has well over 2000 post I see you're really going to town again! :cheeky:

D1??

Just ribbin' ya!

Had some time to kill - took a day off. :)

Anyway... on this matter. All-in-all there WAS a slow response. Congress will be looking into it (along with all the watchdogs).

I sincerely hope so. However, that isn't going to help the folks there.

My issue is that it's sooooo obvious that there are those in the larch waiting for something like this,,, to jump all over big government.

Fair ball. What those folks have to realise is that it's not JUST the government - the opposition ain't doing squat either and it's their job to keep the government honest.

My ideological position is LESS big government, and more for smaller ones (collectively still of course- simply "republics"), as in the UNITED STATES. I think Canada should be UNITED PROVIDENCES of N. AMERICA or something like that! (or of the Queen he ha he). Hell, Quebec has their own set of rules it seems anyway.

Don't start me on the Queen - a monarchist I most assuredly am NOT. Similarly, don't start me on Quebec - I don't go for whiny and petulant spoiled children.

again I asks of you... if not only prayers….

Anything we can send, we'll send.

[BALTY]

Yes, D1 is short for "Darling ONE".
Acushla means "darling one"
I rib him too, but he can take it ... right? ;)
Good guy that D1~

The latest in Ohio...
The big Cs.. or CCC = Cleveland, Cincinnati, & Columbus, have all offered shelter to the refugees. One of the airlines was to fly them in. But they ( the hurricane refugees) had all turned it down -last minute- Too far from home they said. I don't blame them I guess, but it would have been a way out for them for a while!
Also I guess Washington did offer immediate help in the form of National emergency, but was turn down by the governor. Maybe because of the terms. Martial Law would have been imposed! It's a shame for the victims the bureaucracy gets in the way~

[Roj]

Yes, D1 is short for "Darling ONE".

O I C. that' s a new one for me. :)

The big Cs.. or CCC = Cleveland, Cincinnati, & Columbus, have all offered shelter to the refugees. One of the airlines was to fly them in. But they ( the hurricane refugees) had all turned it down -last minute- Too far from home they said. I don't blame them I guess, but it would have been a way out for them for a while!

I can't blame them either, especially with winter not far off...

Also I guess Washington did offer immediate help in the form of National emergency, but was turn down by the governor. Maybe because of the terms. Martial Law would have been imposed!

What kind of Draconian nonsense is THAT? I can't seem to recall martial law being imposed in New York.

It's a shame for the victims the bureaucracy gets in the way~

Ya think?

[jkrzok]

What kind of Draconian nonsense is THAT? I can't seem to recall martial law being imposed in New York.

I wonder if it may have anthing to do with that so-called "Patriot" Act. :paranoid:

[acushla]

Don't start me on the Queen - a monarchist I most assuredly am NOT. Similarly, don't start me on Quebec - I don't go for whiny and petulant spoiled children.


Queen...good-bye Have a nice life..

Quebec...it continues to be a mystery to me why we don't just let them go.

As for 'death' somehow being extreme enough to coax a different response from Canadians...I sincerely doubt it.

Just as I doubt anything significant emerges out of any number of 'hearings' held by Congress etc., etc., etc.

I saw the Daily Show tonight in which 5 minutes were devoted to playing back various recent media clips of Under Secretary of Emergency Preparedness and Response in the newly created Department of Homeland Security, Michael D. Brown.

To tell you it was surreal...one clip had him being interviewed by Ted Koppel who asked 'why did it take you so long'.

'We didn't know' was the answer.

Ted asked him if they didn't have a TV in the White House or listen to the radio...that the media had been reporting it from the beginning. The response was they didn't know 'with certainty' until the 3rd day. Apparently you just can't believe the media.

There was more...and no doubt everybody here is probably capable of telling a greater number of stories than I am...but it all leaves me with a bewildering, and yes, surreal sense of disbelief by everything connected with the governments complete failure to respond to this disaster the way we expected them to be capable of.

The saddest part to all of this is the knowledge that no matter how angry or upsetting this is to me...I simply do not even want to think about how this impacted the people who lived there. Bad enough to go through a Hurricane...criminal that their Government wasn't there to help them when they most needed it.

Very distressing.

[acushla]

Yes, D1 is short for "Darling ONE".

Also I guess Washington did offer immediate help in the form of National emergency, but was turn down by the governor. Maybe because of the terms. Martial Law would have been imposed!

What kind of Draconian nonsense is THAT? I can't seem to recall martial law being imposed in New York.

Well of course Martial Law was not imposed in New York...it was a COMPLETELY different scenario.

My understanding of Martial Law is that the Police and the ARMY have every right (including the right to be assholes and bully's) and you the citizen have the right to be shot on sight.

Those (no kidding) are extreme examples of the abuse of Martial Law...take a step back from that and it is pretty easy to see how, under the circumstances in New Orleans, Martial Law would have served a practical purpose.

Lets face it, in New York on 9/11...if you were alive (and most were) at 10am ...then chances were good that you were going home sometime that day. From your home it was unlikely you could even see anything of the mornings events save perhaps grey smoke.

A completely different set of circumstances.

I do agree that to put 'conditions' on whether we are going to help or not given the circumstances, is beyond my reasoning. Perhaps, if we are lucky, we might get an answer to that when the hearings begin. I doubt it...but one can dream...can't one?

As a side note (we all like it when our position is supported by someone we like or have respect for)...Samuel Jackson, the actor, was the guest on The Daily Show tonight and he made it very clear that giving money to the Red Cross was a bad idea...citing precisely the reasons I had given in an earlier post. He concluded that if you could give the money directly to a family...that would be the best way of all.

[Inthewoods]

I saw the Daily Show tonight in which 5 minutes were devoted to playing back various recent media clips of Under Secretary of Emergency Preparedness and Response in the newly created Department of Homeland Security, Michael D. Brown.

To tell you it was surreal...one clip had him being interviewed by Ted Koppel who asked 'why did it take you so long'.

'We didn't know' was the answer.

Ted asked him if they didn't have a TV in the White House or listen to the radio...that the media had been reporting it from the beginning. The response was they didn't know 'with certainty' until the 3rd day. Apparently you just can't believe the media.Can't believe the media?? How do you know what the media said? you admitted yourself that you wre totally unaware of what was going on until afterward.There was more...and no doubt everybody here is probably capable of telling a greater number of stories than I am...but it all leaves me with a bewildering, and yes, surreal sense of disbelief by everything connected with the governments complete failure to respond to this disaster the way we expected them to be capable of.

Lemme see if I get it. You are appalled that even though the media covered Katrina from the very beginning (actually from a few days before because they knew it would be bad), the U.S. government did not respond appropriately to the disaster or at least as you think they should have responded. Hmmmmmmmm. OK.

Why are you continuing your political rant at the American government ad nauseum? I mean, do you have something to gain politically by the constant barrage? Just how is this helping the victims here? (remember the topic of this thread?)

Please understand, I meant no disrespect and if I had to do it all over again...I wouldn't.

You may find this hard to believe but I have been so incrediably busy that other than knowing there was a storm...I know nothing else. Nothing else. I have not had any media on at all...just the comedy station on XstreamRadio.

Judging from what you have written it sounds as if it was very, very serious.So you didn't know until day 3 either but that's OK because you're not a part of the U.S. government. OK. ( I'll save you the embarassment of again quoting your 2 word response).It is no excuse of course, but perhaps if I had known the extend of it's force it might not have even occured to me to try to make political gain out of such devasation.So why do you continue?I am sincerely sorry.I don't believe you. If you were, you wouldn't continue. What you and some other folks don't seem to realize is that this constant negativity (right or wrong, I'm not defending our government's response, trust me) is very demoralizing for those of us who are closely involved with the aftermath of this. The people who are helping have put politics aside and are quietly putting enormous amounts of time, energy and effort into the relief effort, all without fanfare. Constant criticism of the government's response is nothing more than fodder for terrorists the likes of Osama.

I'm with Balty 100% on this, in fact he said it better than I could have. This is not the time for political rants of any kind. They hurt people.

They're still finding bodies. Please.

[Roj]

Quebec...it continues to be a mystery to me why we don't just let them go.

Because they have absolutely no intention of going andf never did. it's far more effective and lucrative to play the spoiled child of Canada and whine until they get what they want. Political blackmail goes a long way. Going would be the worst disaster for that Province from a political and economic perspective and they know it.

As for 'death' somehow being extreme enough to coax a different response from Canadians...I sincerely doubt it.

I won't agree with this - we're not that jaded.

Just as I doubt anything significant emerges out of any number of 'hearings' held by Congress etc., etc., etc.

I'll agree with this.

'We didn't know' was the answer.

Bureauocratic snafus happen and his department basically had trial by fire. They weren't ready. It could happen anywhere. They'll do better next time.

Apparently you just can't believe the media.

You can't - what's your point? :)

There was more...and no doubt everybody here is probably capable of telling a greater number of stories than I am...but it all leaves me with a bewildering, and yes, surreal sense of disbelief by everything connected with the governments complete failure to respond to this disaster the way we expected them to be capable of.

YOU'RE bewildered? The folks in New Orleans are much more so.

[Roj]

Why are you continuing your political rant at the American government ad nauseum? I mean, do you have something to gain politically by the constant barrage? Just how is this helping the victims here? (remember the topic of this thread?)

From my perspective, once the people responsible own up to their screw-up, then it can be fixed. Unless there is a loud outcrap of "you screwed up!", that isn't ever going to happen because it will be whitewashed, swept under the rug, downplayed, PR spun, you name it. That just how governments - ANY GOVERNMENT - works.

Lemme see if I get it. You are appalled that even though the media covered Katrina from the very beginning (actually from a few days before because they knew it would be bad), the U.S. government did not respond appropriately to the disaster or at least as you think they should have responded. Hmmmmmmmm. OK.

Well, if you know a disaster is going to occur, it behooves you to prepare to meet it. That's simple prudence. This wasn't a tsunami - there were days of warning. Hurricane season isn't new - it's been happening for thousands of years. The devastation caused by one is known especially after last year's rake of Florida, Jamaica and various other Carribean islands, especially Haiti. This was shaping up to be a Cat 5 - the worst there is. Yes, I'd have expected more immediate emergency contingency plans from a Federal body.

The people who are helping have put politics aside and are quietly putting enormous amounts of time, energy and effort into the relief effort, all without fanfare.

They would have to - the system has failed them so they'd have to find another way. Besides, disaster recovery shouldn't be partisan.

Constant criticism of the government's response is nothing more than fodder for terrorists the likes of Osama.

No. This falls under the heading of Act Of God and not terrorism. So Osama chortles at the unfortunate events - I'd expect no less from him. That doesn't render his response (said chuckle) any more potent. In short, what he or any terrorist thinks about this doesn't matter.

I'm with Balty 100% on this, in fact he said it better than I could have. This is not the time for political rants of any kind. They hurt people.

Now may not be the time - the job must get done first - but that time will and should come. And certain people NEED to be hurt by this and badly, specifically those whose incompetence perpetuated it.

They're still finding bodies. Please.

And will be for a long time yet.

I heard today that the water receded in one part of the city and a nursing home was found with thirty bodies. My father went into a long term health care facility earlier this year. My aunt was in one that narrowly escaped damage last year when a hurricane razed Jamaica - the facility was by a gully as the flood waters roared by. That news item filled me with helplessness and despair because all I could think of was those poor people unable to help themselves when the water rolled in.

Please indeed.

Condemnation now won't help the dead or distressed but it may help them next time. And there will always be a next time.

[Inthewoods]

Constant criticism of the government's response is nothing more than fodder for terrorists the likes of Osama.

No. This falls under the heading of Act Of God and not terrorism. So Osama chortles at the unfortunate events - I'd expect no less from him. That doesn't render his response (said chuckle) any more potent. In short, what he or any terrorist thinks about this doesn't matter.

I strongly disagree! Any rhetoric which criticizes the U.S. government for their response right now is fuel for terrorists, no matter what the reason. The timing is all wrong, and it's hurting the victims. If you don't understand that, I'm afraid you are terribly naive.

It isn't even about the governments response (or more accurately lack thereof), hell it isn't even about the hurricane at all. Want proof? Go back to the thread about the bombing in London. That turned into a Hate America fest as well.
Condemnation now won't help the dead or distressed but it may help them next time.It's hurting the victims NOW, dammit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is my fervent wish that folks help the victims of Katrina...
...in any way they can.If you really mean that......Besides, disaster recovery shouldn't be partisan. or that.... then PLEASE stop hurting the victims and focus on lending a hand, whether America deserves it or not.

We've all heard that old saying "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that the original objective was to drain the swamp"

We Americans know that our government blew this rescue effort big time... WE GET IT, ALLRIGHT?

We also know that some of you want to see our government fall, and that others hate us just because of where we live. Get over it, and please stop being such alligators, because New Orleans is the swamp, and we, and our government, need to focus on our objective and help the people who need it..

[Roj]

I strongly disagree! Any rhetoric which criticizes the U.S. government for their response right now is fuel for terrorists, no matter what the reason. The timing is all wrong, and it's hurting the victims. If you don't understand that, I'm afraid you are terribly naive.

I originally wrote a different answer to the above comment but this will likely be better:

If your government can't take criticism about how it failed to respond adequately to a natural disaster affecting its own citizens and learn from it without feeling that somehow terrorists will profit from this, then your country is in a very sad state indeed. I sincerely hope that paranoia of the type you describe has not set in because if it has, the terrorists have indeed won.

It isn't even about the governments response (or more accurately lack thereof), hell it isn't even about the hurricane at all. Want proof? Go back to the thread about the bombing in London. That turned into a Hate America fest as well.

People are going to dislike America for something sometime. Shrug it off and get on with the job of helping people. Not Americans - PEOPLE who happen to live in New Orleans. That's how many of us see the victims of Katrina. Just people.

It's hurting the victims NOW, dammit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How? They're going to be cold, wet, miserable, without water and food and hope regardless of what you, I or Osama Bin laden says. They can't be hurt by people pondering and raising alarms about what went wrong.

They CAN be hurt by people keeping quiet and not raising alarms or trying to fix the issues that caused the mess in the first place. After the recriminations, I do hope that the next step will be just that. But again, that's for later.

If you really mean that...... or that.... then PLEASE stop hurting the victims and focus on lending a hand, whether America deserves it or not.

Who the HELL said America didn't deserve a helping hand? America, despite its flaws (and we all have those) has often leant a helping hand and as such DESERVES any help anyone can provide. It's also not as if we aren't helping. You have Canucks amongst you now and we're sending stuff as fast as we can in the way of donations, food, clothing, etc..

We've all heard that old saying "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that the original objective was to drain the swamp"

Very true and you're there right now.

We Americans know that our government blew this rescue effort big time... WE GET IT, ALLRIGHT?

OK. Just make sure that it's remembered later when it comes time to fix things so that it doesn't happen again.

We also know that some of you want to see our government fall, and that others hate us just because of where we live.

Your government is your own problem - we have ours too and while many consider the current American government to be less than optimal, It's not as if the other guys would be any better. You have the same problem we do up here in Canada. People don't hate people because they live in a place unless that place has come to be a symbol for how the people who live there are perceived to act (read that sentence carefully again). The Isrealis have the same problem. So do the British as far as the Irish are concerned. It's really easy to tag a person with the actions of a government or a foreign policy. A national attiotude also goes a long way. That doesn't mean it has anything to do with a given person. Labels are everywhere. And I submit that it's definitely beginning to get to you as a people if your responses here are any indication.

Get over it, and please stop being such alligators, because New Orleans is the swamp, and we, and our government, need to focus on our objective and help the people who need it.

Very true. And if you'd have bothered to check you'd have noticed that a bunch of folks wearing a red Maple Leaf are right there with you. As I said, a lot of stuff is being donated up here and will hopefully get where it's needed. You folks are not alone.

[BALTY]

Well Woods, at least it's not a (so-called) fellow American, shoutcasting to the world about it, in that vein!

It's still hits you at times as someone complaining, about the political powers in charge (Republicans in this case) on OUR matters and not theirs! [So like...> "butt out", right?] Well, they are just giving their view point as the MEDIA, yes, "MEDIA", splains it Lucy! And of course as we all know IT IS BAD THERE, so even the media wants to take their concerns,and frustrations out, and call-out someone who should be in charge, and lambaste them! Who is "THEM"? Bush and or his appointees of course. I guess the buck stops there. Even in the real world it isn't all that cut-N-dry!
Comments that come from outside the US should be taken with a grain of salt. It's when our bothers take it to a world stage, that crosses the line for me!

Anyhooo; Bush now will sign any amount to get people off his back, you wait and see! Who will account for all the money spent and how? I know it's too early to squawk about this now. But you'll see! All this finger pointing WILL get moneys down there to those states, and then some.

Someone brought up 911 and Red Cross the other day, and how they held onto moneys... earmarked for NY. Did you know most of the survivors made out like bandits (excuse the term - they were victims first). Don't hear much about how they were short-change as it were. And that's all fine too, get it behind us...., but less we forget....yadda yadda! Point is the Red Cross was there early, and was needed there early and not later. That money came in later via insurance, lawsuits, Federal, etc. So if they needn't spend it, they didn't spend it,(at least not unwisely in my opinion) pissing people off who donated to it! Good thing they didn't. They'll need it now!
OR WILL THEY? with 60 BILLION allocated from congress so far going to the states directly and indirectly. Eitherway it's above whatever the Red Cross brings in and/or doles out!
The Red Cross is better suited for this (hurricane) type of disaster. Getting prepared for it, with coordination, and inventory etc. they probably needed that expensive computer system, (that I heard people complaining about). People would be complaining today about them being so slow in responding, I'm sure!,--Saying things like, {"why don't they upgrade their system and get into the 21st century"?}and{"Hell with all that money I donated"!.....etc.} Just can't please all all the time!
Well I digress!
I'm sure you'll find holes in my 2-cents here.
I'm just saying in my normal round-a-bout way is.. the Red Cross was trying to be wise, and I was taken a back too at first. But later understood the method to their madness !
Just remember it WAS an act of God, (or nature). Not God's will, or G.W.B. neglect to GW(global warming)! [agenda agenda agenda! it'll always be!]

Oh and Wood, about the comment on the American hate fest... It's there obviously, that too is what I meant when commenting on "roads not paved in gold" earlier. People think we all spend freely, and do things inconsiderably (yes, some do of course), But America has third-world-like places too with-in our walls, along with a strong-ethics middle working class of people.
And no, it's not the Bush's SH♣tting all over the lower class. People forget one important thing ... Called.... "The Human factor"! The very thing that dooms communalism. Not everybody pitches in the same. But we have freedom here, and with this most importantly, opportunity! Hell, we have welfare, and social security as well, for those who feel as though there isn't opportunity. But people don't like giving out money to those who don't want to try! So you'll get the very poor even in a great place! (notice my soap box I jumped on?)
by Roj:
People are going to dislike America for something sometime. Shrug it off and get on with the job of helping people. Not Americans - PEOPLE who happen to live in New Orleans. That's how many of us see the victims of Katrina Just people. hear here
by Roj:
This was shaping up to be a Cat 5
It ended up somewhere between a 3 and 4! (not that it's not bad enough)Granted the waves were coming in as 5. But the down-grade took some attention off. Initial reports said that N.O. faired rather nicely considering. It took quite sometime for that damn/levy broke. That Damn levy!~

[acushla]

Can't believe the media??

It was Jon Stewart's comment in regards to Brown's explanation of why the government took so long to respond...not my comment.

Out of curiosity I wonder if you have ever seen The Daily Show? It is said that more people watch The Daily Show for news than any other news broadcast in the US. Which explains a lot.

For me, an ordinary citizen living outside of the US who happened not to have any TV or Radio on and as a result was not aware of what was happening, is one thing. For a government, I think even you will agree that, this just isn't an option. Not to mention cause for great concern.

The political gain I referred to earlier was that between our two governments...specifically the issues surrounding softwood lumber taxes and your ban on beef imports.

As for my being sorry...you are wrong.

Edit: Just saw an interview with NBC's anchorman Brian Williams, who broadcast NBC news from just a few feet outside of the Superdome.

He is disturbed by those who feel that now is not the time to criticize the Government and spoke of how it is every Americans responsibility to continue to talk about the ineptitude of the Government so that pressure will be made to have those responsible be held accountable.

He also revealed that Bush himself will lead the investigation...which led to 'Who better to investigate and be objective than the person who was the most distant from the event?'

Please note...if you have a problem with these views...please...address your concerns to Mr. Williams at NBC, as it is he who expressed them.

[Toe]

He is disturbed by those who feel that now is not the time to criticize the Government and spoke of how it is every Americans responsibility to continue to talk about the ineptitude of the Government so that pressure will be made to have those responsible be held accountable.

While that segment sounds like as much media sensationalism as anything, I pretty much agree with the basic sentiment. I'm pissed at our government (and not just Bush). They have failed us, and I'm not planning to 'let it slide'. At the same time, I'm taking goods to my local Salvation Army dropoff. I'm quite capable of both at once.

[BALTY]

I'm taking goods to my local Salvation Army dropoff. I'm quite capable of both at once.
I think it should and will be investigated ........ in due time.
And...Well good for you! Me too!


Please note...if you have a problem with these views...please...address your concerns to Mr. Williams at NBC, as it is he who expressed them.
What's his number?... Why; I oughta....#↨Å%╟τ . .
....Just kidding!

[acushla]

Well...the President has distanced himself from Michael Brown who has been removed as head of operations in New Orleans and has been sent back to a desk job in Washington.

This is definitely a move in the right direction...but hopefully not the only move.

I heard it said that Arabian horses everywhere are now living in fear that soon they will be managed by Michael Brown.

[acushla]

What's his number?... Why; I oughta....#↨Å%╟τ . .
....

You can begin by contacting the NBC News Archives in New York at Phone: 212-664-3797.

Let me know how it works out. Good luck.

[acushla]

I'm taking goods to my local Salvation Army dropoff. I'm quite capable of both at once.

This is exactly what Mr. Williams said.

[Shadowraven]

I may be pissing off my fellow Americans here, but I'm going to say what I think here as well.

The fact is that no matter what you think, the response to this disaster was inexcusable, period. There is no reason that they should not have known that a disaster of this scale was in the making. After all, it had been predicted by many of the experts on this subject for several years now. The major newspaper of New Orleans had run several stories on just this subject.

It's been known for years that New Orleans could barely survive a Cat 3 storm, much less one that had increased to a Cat 5. Now it did lose strength just before hitting land, but it was still a Cat 4 working on dikes only built for a Cat 3, and those dikes were hastily installed in a substandard way due to a lack of funds.

Why? Because Bush rerouted the funds for the US Army Corps of Engineers budget that had been earmarked for the dikes and sent it off to Iraq. He signed off on that bill after being warned and asked repeatedly by the experts and Corps NOT to do this because of what could happen if he did. He ignored it of course and went on his merry way.

Saying that there was no way that they could have known this would happen is a bald-faced lie. THEY WERE WARNED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!! At the very least they should have been preparing for the worst before it hit, and then rushed the resources into place. As the boss, it was Dubya's responsibility to make sure that was being done. Having been a manager I know I'm responsible for everything my underlings do, or don't do, and it's my job to make sure it's made right before it goes off the hook.

Louisiana also has one of the highest percentages of Guardsman deployed to Iraq. Small wonder that thery were overwhelmed by this. The Feds saying that they couldn't get anyone into the area when everyone and his brother were able to do so is just disgraceful incompetence. Something this administration has always displayed a wonderful excess of.

They can't say they didn't know about the disaster as it unfolded. Gods know it was on the frigging news often enough. Maybe they were all too busy watching Faux, I mean Fox News cheerleading for Dubya's policies to see the reality of what was happening. Now I don't subscribe to the black and poor idea, but I do subscribe to the poor one.

I believe the lack of response and concern may have had a lot to do with the fact that so many people living there are poor. I don't for a minute believe that race was a factor, even with Dubya. But income level most certainly was. They kept showing how inept and out of touch they were when they complained about people not leaving, when those people couldn't leave unless they walked out. Then they continued to by telling these people to ask for help by using the internet, or a phone number where you could never get an answer to. How did they think these people could do these things?

The Feds still haven't done much in the way of anything substantial to make a difference for these people. The exception being the Corps of Engineers, but they were ready to begin with for this disaster. They already KNEW it was coming. The level of incompetence and unconcern is unbelievable. I would have never even thought of Dubya until I saw it happening, and I hate that man with a blue passion.

Some of you might say "do something to help besides pointing fingers". I can say I already have given to several relief agencies what I could to assist. The other way I can assist is BY complaining like this. Why else do you think they've started scrambling over themselves to be seen as doing something? It's because there has been such a negative response such as mine that has finally galvanized them into some sort of action. Even it it is ineffectual and sucks. I believe the only reason is because so many people are outraged but the lack of response. 4 days is worse than ridiculous. Not coming back from your vacation early to fix it when so many are suffering and dying is heartless and inhuman.

In short I'm not hurting anyone by asking these questions, or making these statements now. I'm just helping to light a fire under their asses to get them into gear doing something more than the incompetent crap that they are doing and more effective. Do you really believe that they would have been motivated any other way? I seriously doubt that! Not from our "compassionate" conservatives or "you hurt my feelings" liberals.

[Roj]

OK woods, a couple of our ships pulled in yesterday. By all accounts, people (including American military personnel) were surprised at how fast and efficiently we unloaded and got things going. They were also surprised at how much and what we had brought, people and material alike. They were very grateful.

We delivered as promised. We'll stick around until we're no longer needed.

We're there helping our neighbours when it counts.

Things are as they should be.

'nuff said.

[BALTY]

Listen Shadow, My qualm isn't WHAT Americans say or what's said about (aboot) Americans, it's only where they are saying it, and to whom!
There is always a place for watchdogs here in our country, as in any.
Yes, there was a delay, and if it comes out that Bush is at fault with the levees then, so be it and WE deal with that!
Pissing people off, if it helps correct issues, and/or save lives, is an American right, and God bless you for pissing people off!
Ralph Nader pissed off a lot of people, and it helped (Slightly) with the American Auto industry's quality (safety anyway).
I wouldn't respect Canadians, bitching about their country on this forum. I'm sure there is a place for tongue in cheek ribbing now, and then, but blatant put-downs, I don't respect... (well do what you will!)
I might not like it, but it's kinda like gossip. Don't like it!, but there is a place for it. Keeps people a little more honest in the task called life! Keeps an order to the heart of society!
Let's keep it in-house, directed to the right people if at all possible is all!

[Roj]

Yes, there was a delay, and if it comes out that Bush is at fault with the levees then, so be it and WE deal with that!

True enough - it's not as if anyone else can or should.

I wouldn't respect Canadians, bitching about their country on this forum.

Then for God's sake don't get me started on Quebec whiny spoiled children or Albertan neo-fascists, er, Alliance, er, Conservatives...

But I digress...

[Roj]

This is definitely a move in the right direction...but hopefully not the only move.

Do not forget that a manager is in part as good as his subordinates. Brown may be gone but the rot lies within yet.

[Shadowraven]

This is definitely a move in the right direction...but hopefully not the only move.

Do not forget that a manager is in part as good as his subordinates. Brown may be gone but the rot lies within yet.
Just exactly what I was saying Roj. The manager is always directly responsible for what his subordinates do, because he helps create the environment they all work in. It starts at the top and rolls it's way down.

[Todd The Kiwi]

better late than never though, right guys ? :biggrin:

[acushla]

Just exactly what I was saying Roj. The manager is always directly responsible for what his subordinates do, because he helps create the environment they all work in. It starts at the top and rolls it's way down.

So what Roj should have written is something like: Shadowraven has it right this time, or, I'm with Shadowraven on this one... :laugh: :grin:

[BALTY]

Just exactly what I was saying Roj. The manager is always directly responsible for what his subordinates do, because he helps create the environment they all work in. It starts at the top and rolls it's way down.
Some people use this theory as a general rule, but never should it be assumed. Always a case by case. http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif You can't always tie your subordinates shoes for them. You can only create an environment that allows them to take their gloves off, to make it easier!
{ http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif or give them penny loafers }

[b]
Then for God's sake don't get me started on Quebec whiny spoiled children or Albertan neo-fascists, er, Alliance, er, Conservatives...
But I digress...Now there you go Roj;http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif
That's good tongue-in-cheek ribbing !

[BALTY]

How's this for ya?http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tt/2005/tt050911.gif

[Roj]

I see someone FINALLY called a spade a spade (definitely no pun intended).

And might I add the whole "citicizm of the government only hurts the victims more and gives aid and comfort to the enemies of the state" BULLSHIT still echoes in my mind as pure, unadulterated, politically correct rubbish (you have absolutely no concept of how much self-restraint I had to employ when I read that).

[BALTY]

Get over it! It's just a critics view!
As is yours, mine, and his! :cyclops:
What a wonderful world... la la la~
.
...at least we're trying to have it be!

[acushla]

I see someone FINALLY called a spade a spade (definitely no pun intended).

And might I add the whole "citicizm of the government only hurts the victims more and gives aid and comfort to the enemies of the state" BULLSHIT still echoes in my mind as pure, unadulterated, politically correct rubbish (you have absolutely no concept of how much self-restraint I had to employ when I read that).

Let me see if I have this right...the first sentence refers to the cartoon submitted by BALTY. The second 'rant' refers back to a post early on in this thread.

How am I doing so far?

[Inthewoods]

So I'm full of bullshit. I've got news for you. Unless you're living in this country and dealing with the aftermath of this disaster first hand, you are in NO position to judge me. God knows, I know that won't stop you. As far as calling it politically correct rubbish, my point of view is about as politically incorrect as they get.

The "hate America" flavor of this forum goes back to way before I even became a member. There were postings about it as early as 2003. Some people here just seem to get their jollys taking pot shots at America and Americans. So be it. It has cost us a few members already, an lots of bad feelings, and that's a shame, but it has way too much momentum for me (or anybody) to even slow it down.

I know you'd all probably get a good laugh out of it if I left in a huff all pissed off and fuming. Sorry kids, that ain't gonna happen. If you want to continue to fuel the flames, go right ahead. but I won't participate. From here on out until things settle down I won't participate in these kinds of threads.

Lest you believe that what I say is truly bullshit, I'll leave you with this: Every time somebody takes a shot at the Bush administration, they get distracted from the crisis caused by Katrina by spending time trying to save their own political asses and polish up their tarnished images. This takes the government's focus away from the real problems and delays things even more. Is this the fault of the critics? No, not really, but nevertheless, the end result is the same, fewer folks receiving help in a timely manner. It's not that the criticism is not deserved, of course it is, but as I said in an earlier post, this is not the appropriate time nor place.

So flame away, boys and girls, and have your fun, I'm going into town to help load another truck with relief supplies.

[acushla]

. It's not that the criticism is not deserved, of course it is, but as I said in an earlier post, this is not the appropriate time nor place.

So flame away, boys and girls, and have your fun, I'm going into town to help load another truck with relief supplies.

I commend you on putting words into actions and participating in the 'relief' effort. It is both noble and selfless.

I made reference in an earlier post about seeing NBC's anchorman, Brian Williams, being interviewed in which he was very strongly opposed to the idea of criticism being put 'on the back burner'. He felt there was great danger in adopting this stance, and concluded by saying (as repeated by Toe) that he was capable of doing two things at once.

As for the US bashing...I do not know too much about it. I have made reference to issues between our two countries...things that have had a direct impact on us. Other than that I do not believe I have commented on anything other than the war in Iraq to which I have tried to put a positive spin.

My own 'feeling' is that the strongest and loudest 'America bashing' comes from within your own borders...which has led to the departure of several other American forum members.

It greatly disturbs me that you think that anybody would 'get a good laugh out of it if I left in a huff...' this is just flat out wrong and I would suggest a total over reaction on your part. This is a forum...and we are in the Political thread at that. The idea is to present our view on a given topic as part of a 'discussion' process' so that idea can be developed, and as it develops then so does the understanding of the issue. Are we going to have people end up on different sides of the learning fence at the end of the day? Of course we are...but I don't think anybody hopes that somebody who is willing to contribute to that discussion, even though they arrive at a different conclusion, hopes the person will leave in a huff. Sometimes I think, thank god for different perspectives. Without that there is no discussion.

People often ask me what is the secret to the success of my long term relation with the woman (one of,,,hahaha) I love. I've given thought to this over time and have concluded that a huge part of it can be attributed to the fact that we can both agree to disagree.

[Roj]

Get over it! It's just a critics view!
As is yours, mine, and his! :cyclops:
What a wonderful world... la la la~
.
...at least we're trying to have it be!

Yes, but one is rooted in fact, the other in paranoia.

Edit:

I retract the above statement as is shown in my next post. I'm leaving this here since I never hide my mistakes. Note that the following post was answered in a point-by-point manner which I'm prone to doing. I do hope that people will take the evolving progression of thought (and understanding) down through the post into account.

[Roj]

So I'm full of bullshit.

On that point, most definitely. It's the only one I've ever seen you exhibit those symptoms with, given that you're a very level headed individual not prone to fits of weirdness, but this one is definitely seriously off base.

I've got news for you. Unless you're living in this country and dealing with the aftermath of this disaster first hand, you are in NO position to judge me. God knows, I know that won't stop you. As far as calling it politically correct rubbish, my point of view is about as politically incorrect as they get.

I'll allow that stress can do strange things ot people. But of all things woods, hiding one's head in the sand is not the answer and definitely not something I'd have expected of you.

The "hate America" flavor of this forum goes back to way before I even became a member. There were postings about it as early as 2003. Some people here just seem to get their jollys taking pot shots at America and Americans.

I 'll agree that this happens. The same things unfortunately happen with the French, the Jews, the Italians, Negroes and God knows who else. I'll also comment that sentiment this deep seated did not spring form the cabbage patch - fifty years of foreign policy is finally taking its toll.


So be it. It has cost us a few members already, an lots of bad feelings, and that's a shame, but it has way too much momentum for me (or anybody) to even slow it down.

You're missing the point. When someone does something wrong, the best thing is to own up, try and fix it and move on. So far I see little evidence that such realization has dawned in policy making circles. Trying to protect those circles by attempting to shield them from criticism doesn't help matters. Claiming that such protection is somehow helpful to people suffering as a result of those circles defies all logic.

I know you'd all probably get a good laugh out of it if I left in a huff all pissed off and fuming.

No. I'd wonder what the hell happened to the woods I came to know since I've been here. He never does things like that.

From here on out until things settle down I won't participate in these kinds of threads.

Fair ball.

Lest you believe that what I say is truly bullshit, I'll leave you with this: Every time somebody takes a shot at the Bush administration, they get distracted from the crisis caused by Katrina by spending time trying to save their own political asses and polish up their tarnished images. This takes the government's focus away from the real problems and delays things even more.

Now THAT makes a HELL of a lot of good sense. I know how bureauocrats work and that most certainly fits their M.O. In that context I can now understand where you're coming from. I would have hoped however that such stinging criticism which is also coming form your own citizens would have forced them to act faster, if only to give the impression to voters that they were actually on the ball.

Is this the fault of the critics? No, not really, but nevertheless, the end result is the same, fewer folks receiving help in a timely manner. It's not that the criticism is not deserved, of course it is, but as I said in an earlier post, this is not the appropriate time nor place.

OK, I understand. Get through the mess, THEN give them their comeuppance.

So flame away, boys and girls, and have your fun, I'm going into town to help load another truck with relief supplies.

No flames.

Only agreement.

And my personal apology for musunderstanding where you were coming from.

[BALTY]

Yes, but one is rooted in fact, the other in paranoia.

Edit:

I retract the above statement as is shown in my next post. I'm leaving this here since I never hide my mistakes. Note that the following post was answered in a point-by-point manner which I'm prone to doing. I do hope that people will take the evolving progression of thought (and understanding) down through the post into account.
paranoia, or propaganda?http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon4.gif
Good Day Sir.

http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Looks like the American coast line at the Gulf of Mexico is yet again threatened, this time by the hurricane Rita. New Orleans wont take a direct hit but the major is wise to yet again evacuate the city. Also parts of Houston will be evacuated soon.

Here is a pic

http://image.weather.com/images/maps/tropical/map_tropprjpath18_fcst_5nhato_enus_600x405.jpg


EDIT: Rita is one hefty bitch. The hurricane is now category 5 and looking very menacing. Good thing the evacuations are carried out on time. Lets hope the material damage will not be too great although you never know with these type of hurricanes. In 1900 Galveston was completely wiped out along with 6000 casualties... :skull:

[BALTY]

Doesn't look good.
I know someone from Galveston, and they left there last night. They went to a relatives house that is in a Houston area vulentary evac location. So they may have to pick up again to leave.
A level 5 may swell the local area to 20 feet above sea level.
The island of Galveston is only 20 feet. Population of over 300,000!
They hope to have only 10 Ft. swells (which is about half the area of the Island ...UHG! :disappoin )

[Roj]

Doesn't look good.
I know someone from Galveston, and they left there last night. They went to a relatives house that is in a Houston area vulentary evac location. So they may have to pick up again to leave.
A level 5 may swell the local area to 20 feet above sea level.
The island of Galveston is only 20 feet. Population of over 300,000!
They hope to have only 10 Ft. swells (which is about half the area of the Island ...UHG! :disappoin )
New Orleans got hit with a CAT3. This a MUCH worse. My prayers go with them.

[acushla]

Doesn't look good.
I know someone from Galveston, and they left there last night. They went to a relatives house that is in a Houston area voluntary evac location. So they may have to pick up again to leave.
A level 5 may swell the local area to 20 feet above sea level.
The island of Galveston is only 20 feet. Population of over 300,000!
They hope to have only 10 Ft. swells (which is about half the area of the Island ...UHG! :disappoin )

I watched a PBS special (aren't they all special?) yesterday on Galveston and how it holds the dubious distinction of being the worst hurricane disaster in the US history. This killer weather system was first detected over the tropical Atlantic on August 27. While the history of the track and intensity is not fully known, the system reached Cuba as a tropical storm on September 3 and moved into the southeastern Gulf of Mexico on the 5th. A general west-northwestward motion occurred over the Gulf accompanied by rapid intensification. By the time the storm reached the Texas coast south of Galveston late on September 8, it was a Category 4 hurricane.

It is estimated that anywhere between 8,000 and 12,000 people lost their lives.

I know that Hurricane Rita was a category 5 yesterday, but has now been downgraded to a category 4.

Little comfort for those caught up in the traffic jams.

[BALTY]

This crocodile was found in New Orleans swimming down the street. 21 FT long, 4,500 lbs, around 80
years old minimum.

Specialists said that he was looking to eat humans because he was too old to
catch animals. This crocodile was killed by the army last Sunday at 3:00 pm, currently he is in
the freezer at the Azur hotel. The contents of it's stomach will be analyzed
this Friday at 2:30pm.


I admit that I didn't research this for it's authenticity, but looks real!
EDIT: Hey...!
I have pictures attached but I don't see them here for some reason. They are .jpg files, and I get no errors!!! hmmm If I edit I see them attached. Sorry if you don't see them. Don't know what's wrong here? Maybe it's a sign that I'm being phased OUT! BANNED..... Hey, I think that'll use that angle for the naming of my next band ......... "Rock Banned" What do you think? Nah... too punny?
http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/character0093.gif
ANYWAY WHAT"S UP WITH MY PICTURES~

[Todd The Kiwi]

This crocodile was found in New Orleans swimming down the street.
21 FT long, 4,500 lbs, around 80 years old minimum.ok, after converting (http://www.joshmadison.com/software/convert/) your measurements it appears to be one hell mutha of a croc

no pics here either mate :ermm:

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4922/capture0nz.pnghttp://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8507/captureflip5co.png

edit: sorry mate, but it appears to be a croc of shit (http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_croc_new_orleans.htm)

[BALTY]

I thought the pics were real, but wondered about the storage of the croc. No power- how could they by cooling it off? he he he.
I did get this from an unreliable source, and should have checked on it, like I've been doing with her untrue stories in the past.
egg on MY face http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/ashamed/ashamed0001.gif
Ya, Thems it mon!
http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/b/9/DCP00432_sm.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/f/9/DCP00431_sm.jpg

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

BBC news: US learns from the dutch how to build dykes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4597288.stm). I like it :P

[WHAT?]

will the US learn how to marry them too??
http://www.freedomtomarry.org/

[acushla]

BBC news: US learns from the dutch how to build dykes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4597288.stm). I like it :P
...not to mention houses that float. True.

[BALTY]

http://x10.putfile.com/3/6310134223-thumb.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/6310134223.jpg&s=x10)
Not to beat a dead horse.
Some of the latest news is that the Governor denied, or failed to acknowledge that the levees broke, among the Feds slowness too.

Anyway... I thought this to be interesting. An old article from 2004 almost a full year prior to the big hurricanes of 2005. This is from a National Geographic Mag. October issue.
Mostly the article is about the vast erosion and loss of the marshes.
It also speaks of the levees holding OR NOT. Red cross being relocated because of future concerns of safety. And interviews with the locals about it being inevitable that the big one will be hitting some time soon, but laugh it off basically. It's part of there toughness, and accept it at there own risk.

http://x10.putfile.com/3/6310142140-thumb.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/6310142140.jpg&s=x10)
http://x10.putfile.com/3/6310145958-thumb.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/6310145958.jpg&s=x10)
Hope you can click onto the PICs from a better view!
Predictions were so right on!

will the US learn how to marry them too??
http://www.freedomtomarry.org/
I get it now! cute!

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Not to beat a dead horse.
Some of the latest news is that the Governor denied, or failed to acknowledge that the levees broke, among the Feds slowness too.


Yeah and that president Bush was informed of the pending situation before Katrina hit the shores. I say, blame everyone or no-one!

BBC news item 1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4765058.stm)
BBC news item 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4744000.stm)
BBC news item 3 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4707536.stm)

[WHAT?]

was [/I]informed of the pending situation before Katrina hit the shores. I say, blame everyone or no-one!


Yes, a little of each choice above.:dead:
Saturday, they released that Bush was on the phone with the officials in N.O. and the state of LA as the articles show also(namely with the Gov.). She denied a breached of the levee when at the time there was.
But having people extra ready for the aftermath (breach or no breach), was a problem in and of itself from all governments.
When will we get it perfect?

[rorythedog]

"When will we get it perfect?". Your voted a baboon for President. You really expect perfection?

No need to reply. It's a rhetorical question.

[WHAT?]

"When will we get it perfect?". Your voted a baboon for President. You really expect perfection?

No need to reply. It's a rhetorical question.
Uh! Rory? Which guy are you?
this....I completely agree. Hence why my lips are sealed on anything even remotely interesting. from the pacifism thread?
Or, This... from the pacifism thread? Stop stirrin' it up mate. It's gettin' boring.

How can you expect your comment to be rhetorical?:silly:

Maybe you meant seriously!

[rorythedog]

I meant that I don't need to hear an answer to something I already know, that's all. As for my mentioning of politics, well. politics is everywhere. What can I say?

[WHAT?]

Tru Dat!
Oh, yes, I know what it means, but it's like saying YOU GUYS SUCK! - and oh, BTW, it's just rhetorical!:silly:
Kinda like a hit-and-run deal!:cross-eye :silly:

[rorythedog]

Tru Dat!
Oh, yes, I know what it means, but it's like saying YOU GUYS SUCK! - and oh, BTW, it's just rhetorical!:silly:
Kinda like a hit-and-run deal!:cross-eye :silly:


Au contraire, my American friend. It is not like saying you guys suck. It's nothing like saying that at all. Gettin' it?

[WHAT?]

O yeah... Gettin' it loud and clear!
But, no need to reply, it's just rhetorical:knocked-o

[Inthewoods]

Au contraire, my American friend. It is not like saying you guys suck. It's nothing like saying that at all. Gettin' it?It is EXACTLY like saying you guys suck.....but you obviously aren't gettin' it.

Hit and run indeed. So much for our sympathies to the Hurricane Katrina victims, which if I recall was the original intent of this thread.

[rorythedog]

It is EXACTLY like saying you guys suck.....but you obviously aren't gettin' it.

Hit and run indeed. So much for our sympathies to the Hurricane Katrina victims, which if I recall was the original intent of this thread.

Are you the forum Nazi? You can't just shout someone down because they've put two and two together. These things are related you know.

I suppose you had rellies involved in the Hurricane as well as 11/9? (which was the ONLY reason I shut myself down on that topic).

If you're going to get all heated just because folks disagree with your viewpoint then it's time to get out of the kitchen.

[Inthewoods]

Are you the forum Nazi? You can't just shout someone down because they've put two and two together. These things are related you know.

I suppose you had rellies involved in the Hurricane as well as 11/9? (which was the ONLY reason I shut myself down on that topic).

If you're going to get all heated just because folks disagree with your viewpoint then it's time to get out of the kitchen.Forum Nazi? because I don't like it when my entire nation and it's people are insulted? I don't think so.

And BTW, I'm not the one getting "heated" here, I responded directly to an insult. I have a right to my opinion and I'll express it, so live with it. It is you who seems a little heated.

As to your second sentence, I'm clueless (I'm sure you'll jump on that comment).

I'm gettin' it now, Rory, loud and clear, just like What? I won't waste my time reading this thread any more. You did it, you crushed everyone who has an opinion that differs from yours. Congratulatuons.

And I'm a forum Nazi? I think not.

It is my fervent wish that folks help the victims of Katrina.......in any way they can.

America has a long history of helping those in need around the globe. We should not desert her now. It is my understanding that Canada stands ready to help as best we can, awaiting a signal from U.S. authorities as to when and where.

I'm very glad that Canada is doing this; other countries can and should do no less.Thanks again Roj, me as well as the company I work for and all my countrymen will continue to help them (yes, they still need help). Thanks also to all the generous, kind spirited folks from all countries who have also helped. Don't think for a moment that we haven't noticed. We appreciate it more than words can say.

[rorythedog]

You "responded" to what you 'perceived' to be an insult. And your countrymen DID put a nutter in the Whitehouse and the rest of the world IS dealing with the consequences of that decision.

I'm sure you previously flagged up some personal connection with what happened on 11/9. I merely assumed you'd take this moral high ground regarding the hurricane also. For the record, my wife and I donated money to the victims of the hurricane too. However, we appreciate where the blame should be laid.

[Todd The Kiwi]

i'm embarrassed to read this =(

you guys so need to resolve your differences
either that or ignore each other :bulb:

[acushla]

...loud and clear...
...Rock and Roll lives forever 'inthewoods'.

[rorythedog]

...Rock and Roll lives forever 'inthewoods'.

Very constructive.

[BALTY]

Yeah I'm staying clear 'cause nothing I say would help the cause. Only stir it up more! And you know I hate stirring it up!!:confused: :bandit:

[acushla]

Very constructive.Thank you...thank you very much. (I take it that you like his new Avatar as well. Definitely cool!):cool: Not to mention the word play on 'inthewoods'. Rock and Roll...'inthewoods.' Get it? In..... The..... Woods.:bulb: :silly: ;)

I admit it...it's a gift.

[WHAT?]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17416735/
...A NW Ohio University bus carrying their baseball team to Florida crashed and fell off a ramp killing a few, and injuring most on it. I know of a few of the boys, but not closely. My son played years before in high school against them. Anyway, the bridge that they fell from wasn't all that high. It could've been one of many in Atlanta that are extremely high.
The driver being tired at 5:30 AM, driving from Ohio, went up a left side off ramp, thinking it was the main through-fare (I-75), since I-75 angled at that point, and most exits go off to the right. He stayed left, and came to a T (end of the road, and can go left or right only!) Skidding into and through the rail, and fence, down to it's resting place seen in the link's pitcher.


...Also; in Alabama... A school was hit by a tornado, killing a few students there. This weather pattern continued into Georgia, hitting a hospital, killing more people there. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17397486/?GT1=9145

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/ap/alrc11303020141.rp420x400.jpg

If you have time, check out the video on both links.

[rorythedog]

Definitely bad news about the bus. I've known folks who've gone this way too. On a happier note, do you think the good folks of Alabama might start driving vehicles that don't consume this planet quite so much? Nah, I doubt it too.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I find it surprising that this keeps happening. Where's the weather alarm? Why dont people listen? Those guys in the south should know better. Nature's most ferocious storms are not to be gambled with out in the open. :grimreape Sorry to hear about people's losses though...

[Willow of Oz]

I find it surprising that this keeps happening. Where's the weather alarm? Why dont people listen?


The volume on their iPod nanos is too loud.

"emergency ... emergency ... please evacuate in T minus 10, 9 "
"DOOF DOOF DOOF DOOF"

[WHAT?]

The volume on their iPod nanos is too loud.

"emergency ... emergency ... please evacuate in T minus 10, 9 "
"DOOF DOOF DOOF DOOF"
Actually, it was the third warning of the day. Three separate storms waved through that day. Each one delaying the school authorities of releasing the kids. Most of the kids were just leaving this time when the third alarm rang. They were stuck.

[BALTY]

But if you haven't
tsunami (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/australasia/article2413072.ece) agian.

[Willow of Oz]

But if you haven't
tsunami (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/australasia/article2413072.ece) agian.

No, we hadn't. Thanks. I get my news from slashdot and quinnware forums :cross-eye

[WHAT?]

Definitely bad news about the bus. I've known folks who've gone this way too. On a happier note, do you think the good folks of Alabama might start driving vehicles that don't consume this planet quite so much? Nah, I doubt it too.

Now I hear three from another university near by, are in critical condition after a car accident. They blew a stop sign, and T-boned a semi ! Two are football players, and the third is from Turkey. They are enrolled at Tiffin University. Small school- Small town, bIG News there though.:hurt:

[WHAT?]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/WhatTheH/Myanmar.jpg
:depressed

[WHAT?]

China (http://voanews.com/english/2008-05-15-voa26.cfm)
Slowest government response since.... Bush:paranoid: :cheeky:
But seriously... What a bad situation, and my heart goes out to both countries in despair!:depressed