The great firewall of China

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

This has been in the news on and off. As most of you might be aware, the Chinese government is regulating tighter and tighter restrictions on the internet in China. Soon we might not even find one chinese website out there in the great world wide web. Nor will anyone living in China be able to access any website that is not Chinese. What do you guys think of this? Is it the right thing? Should the internet be monitored and regulated? In a way it is also worring that China chooses to isolate itself from the world. To communicate with people from around the world can be dangerous but it also allows us to understand people from around the world in the way they think and act. Personally i feel that yes, the internet has become like cheese with big holes in it, but the cheesy parts are definitely worth keeping and need not to be filtered out along with the rest. Like this forum, we have become and are aware of the world and people around us. That is IMO the greatest thing yet.

[Sheepeh]

That's precisely why they are doing it. The Chinese government don't want their people finding out stuff willy-nilly or it's propganda will be less effective.

It sucks, but the people aren't going to do anything about it anytime soon...I guess we'll have to wait until Bush decides to blow China up and make America MKIII =/

[Willow of Oz]

Arguably some western countries are doing the same thing, to a much less extent, with general consent from their respective populaces.

[Shadowraven]

It's plain wrong, but I agree that that is why they are doing it. So their population can't get any more "dangerous" ideas. Too late, that horse already got out of the barn.

I know, since they are a brutal dictatorship, bent on repressing their people, let's attack them! Isn't that what we should do? We did in Iraq! But then Iraq didn't have the ability to destroy us, did they?

Willow is right when he says you see the same thing happening in the West, in the U.S., albeit in a different fashion. Still the same idea though. The net needs to be left alone. It's scares politicians beacause it allows for the free exchange of ideas AND information. A dangerous mix for a corrupt, and opressive government.

[biggman15]

A dangerous mix for a corrupt, and opressive government.Wait... Are you referring to The US or China??? :cheeky:

[Shadowraven]

Wait... Are you referring to The US or China??? :cheeky:
Very perceptive Biggman. I did mean both when I said that, take your pick. Good catch buddy!

[BALTY]

Only the Shadow knowshttp://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/scared/scared0001.gif ~

[acushla]

It sucks, but the people aren't going to do anything about it anytime soon...I guess we'll have to wait until Bush decides to blow China up and make America MKIII =/

If Bush is going to do that he had better hurry up and do it while he still can.

http://washingtontimes.com/specialr...22138-1088r.htm

[acushla]

Arguably some western countries are doing the same thing, to a much less extent, with general consent from their respective populaces.

Could you give an example...or two?

[Willow of Oz]

Could you give an example...or two?

stuff against local laws comes to mind (X Rated stuff, stuff that can be considered offensive to the community at large).
Gambling. I don't think we're allowed to host gambling sites from australian locations.
Hate speech. (Arguably things that just look like hate speech?)
Ah, there was an uproar once about things like nazi paraphernalia being sold through ebay I believe, which is illegal in Germany (or something like that). So there was a bit of a kerfuffle over that, although of course ebay reaches more countries than germany...

That sort of stuff comes immediately to mind.

Unsolicited commercial mail is another.

Someone somewhere is essentially trying to protect us and attempting to filter stuff out. It's merely a different scale, and we the people generally like the job they're doing.

There are probably more illuminating examples, but alas they may have been filtered out so thoroughly I'm just not aware of them http://quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/robot.gif

[acushla]

Arguably some western countries are doing the same thing, to a much less extent, with general consent from their respective populaces.

Someone somewhere is essentially trying to protect us and attempting to filter stuff out. It's merely a different scale, and we the people generally like the job they're doing.

Your examples were more or less what I expected...and as I have highlighted in your quote would have to stand as the qualifying difference.

I do not see the regulation of unsolicited mail, hate speech, the restriction of pornography to those over 18yrs of age and all the other examples you gave to be in the same league as the Government of China restricting use of the Internet to all of its citizens.

I'm certain it is a very long discussion and if you want to find a place to begin that discussion I can think of none better than an example of somebody in China who openly criticizes the Government and the resultant consequences and somebody in a 'free and democratic' society who criticizes the government.

It's a different world.

[Roj]

I do not see the regulation of unsolicited mail, hate speech, the restriction of pornography to those over 18yrs of age and all the other examples you gave to be in the same league as the Government of China restricting use of the Internet to all of its citizens.

When censorship starts, no line is too hard to cross and the nonsense thus begun never ends.

Period.

I don't want or need a "net nanny".

'nuff said.

[acushla]

When censorship starts, no line is too hard to cross and the nonsense thus begun never ends.

Period.

I don't want or need a "net nanny".

'nuff said.

'nuff said? I don't think so.

'nuff said implies that it would be fine by you when your daughter was 12 and surfing the net that she can visit Porn sites...visit Holocaust Deniers and strike up a 'meaningful' dialogue with some 47 year old man with 'issues'...not to mention radical Islamic sites where she could play over and over again the beheading of hostages.

'nuff said implies that any government that dares to criminalize sex exploitation of children is, how did you phrase it, when censorship starts, no line is too hard to cross and the nonsense thus begun never ends. ...well...I guess that means that the government is wrong...child pornography is just one man's exercise of free speech...or whatever.

It makes me believe that in your world it's OK to yell fire in a crowded theater.

Tell me it ain't so.

[Roj]

'nuff said implies that it would be fine by you when your daughter was 12 and surfing the net that she can visit Porn sites...visit Holocaust Deniers and strike up a 'meaningful' dialogue with some 47 year old man with 'issues'...not to mention radical Islamic sites where she could play over and over again the beheading of hostages.

Yup it would.

And it has been.

And I, as a responsible(?) parent, was there for her to ask question of and not "shield her from the horrors of the net" like some overprotective 90-year-old professional virgin so she could become prey to some Paul Bernardo lookalike.

This is the same BS mindset I heard years ago while that case was going on from a woman up the street who deplored the fact that it was all over the newspapers and her 13-year old daughter could read it. To you, as to her, I say the following:

Get a life, grow the hell up and expose your kid to this crap, explain it to them and street proof them so that they won't BE prey to this kind of garbage.

And THAT is *'nuff said*.

'nuff said implies that any government that dares to criminalize sex exploitation of children is, how did you phrase it, when censorship starts, no line is too hard to cross and the nonsense thus begun never ends.

That's not censorship - that's the same as criminalizing rape and I don't have a problem with that.

...well...I guess that means that the government is wrong...child pornography is just one man's exercise of free speech...or whatever.

See above - and be aware that mores differ. What is illegal on this continent ain't illegal in Europe. remember, the age of consent is indeed lower there as is the drinking age.

It makes me believe that in your world it's OK to yell fire in a crowded theater.

If there's a fire, sure. It's the 90-year-old professional virgins trying to shield the public from the fire that I take offense to.

Tell me it ain't so.

Let's just say that I'm practical and don't subscribe to academic pie-in-the-sky ideals and leave it at that.

[acushla]

And I, as a responsible parent, was there for her to ask question of and not "shield her from the horrors of the net" like some overprotective 90-year-old professional virgin so she could become prey to some Paul Bernardo lookalike.

Let's just say that I am practical and don't subscribe to academic pie-in-the-sky ideals and leave it at that.

Since the time I have known you, I have had to question whether the fact that I do not have children, somehow distorts the way I view certain issues.

I do not have to wonder any longer. You have shown me that I have not had them broadened or influenced by watching a child grow.

You are right when you say that it is a far better thing for a child to be exposed to everything in life so as to be better prepared to deal with situations which may arise in future days. Something which would have been beneficial to me. Having a Dad there to guide her and answer questions is a world away from being left alone to discover the perils on her own.

You were right about child molesters...not censorship...a crime.

I especially liked your answer about yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater.

I am practical...that's a good thing.

[Hanzo]

Not being a parent myself yet (nor planning to) I have to agree with Roj. My parents raised me that way and that's what I will try when I have kids of my own.

You can't hide the dangers from the real world forever from the kids, eventually they'll have to face it and the better prepared they are the better they'll handle the situation on their own.

[Roj]

Since the time I have known you, I have had to question whether the fact that I do not have children, somehow distorts the way I view certain issues.

I certainly wouldn't say "distorted". You just have a different slant. I've had to roll with the punches for 18 years now. :) Who's wrong and who's right? I don't know. I do know my kids are very street and tech savvy, take no BS and have sufficient armament and shielding to deal with most problems individually. If they can't do it individually, the other part of my training was to have them band together and fight back-to back. If that doesn't work, call the Dark Lord. I Will Be There. :) :) ;)

You are right when you say that it is a far better thing for a child to be exposed to everything in life so as to be better prepared to deal with situations which may arise in future days. Something which would have been beneficial to me. Having a Dad there to guide her and answer questions is a world away from being left alone to discover the perils on her own.

My oldest daughter is a VERY strong personality who can be very forceful yet generally thinks things through and (unlike her father) is not too cynical to lack compassion. She generally doesn't panic in crisis situations. I'm very proud of her. My words to her when she graduated High School last month were:

"I saw a ship take flight today, her engines bright and new, her shields unscathed. Godspeed... "

As I recall, my voice shook and there were tears in my eyes at the time. I can't for the life of me imagine why my CPU was glitching like that.

You were right about child molesters...not censorship...a crime.

My solution for child molesters is brief, graphic and violent. I leave it to your imagination.

I especially liked your answer about yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater.

If you don't know the fire is there, you'll die.

Not an option.

I am practical...that's a good thing.

When raising kids, it's an object requirement. :)

[Sheepeh]

I must say, I don't have children of my own, but I'm with Roj on this one too. I've always thought that children are bright enough to come up with ways round any rules you put in place and the stuff will always be there - so it's better to deal with it on your own terms than let it "happen" when you're not there.

Once you've seen some of the fucked up stuff out there, you learn which bits you'd rather not see for yourself.

You can't impart wisdom...only knowledge.

[biggman15]

I did a quick search in Google Image search... For the words Firewall China... THis was the First Result....

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2507/googlesearchbannedfromchina2nw.th.png (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=googlesearchbannedfromchina2nw.png)

I thought it was Funny!!!! :)

[Shadowraven]

I have to say that agree completely with Roj here. My wife has tried to protect our son too much, and I think that it's had some negative results. I've decided not to subscribe to that idea completely anymore, and he's starting to become more normal for his age.

I think that you can definitely shield your kids too much. I don't want, or need some right-wing net nanny watching out for me or mine. If I don't like it, I just won't visit that site. If I don't want my kid there, that's what MY filters are for. Computers intended for kids stay out in the open in my house so that I can see where they go.

As for child molesters I personally subscribe to the idea of chopping thier nuts (and member) off, frying them up, and making them eat (or at least swallow) it all. Problem solved, or else... :evil:

[acushla]

I've decided not to subscribe to that idea completely anymore, and he's starting to become more normal...

Since you're the father I'd venture to say that 'normal' might be something unattainable! :cheeky: :) :)

PS Exactly what is normal?

[Shadowraven]

Since you're the father I'd venture to say that 'normal' might be something unattainable! :cheeky: :) :)

PS Exactly what is normal?
Too true!!! :ermm:

[acushla]

Too true!!! :ermm:

I'm certain you are a great Dad.

Being involved in Scouting speaks highly of you and your commitment to not only being a good role model...but also of providing healthy experiences in the development of young minds.

Admirable. :) :)

[acushla]

That's precisely why they are doing it. The Chinese government don't want their people finding out stuff willy-nilly or it's propaganda will be less effective.

It sucks, but the people aren't going to do anything about it anytime soon...I guess we'll have to wait until Bush decides to blow China up and make America MKIII =/

The end remark is flippant...but it does raise an interesting parallel to what is going on in Iraq and the surrounding area. Even though the circumstances are different...and the eventual 'freedom' that the people will gain in Iraq is but an afterthought or consequence of an entirely different purpose...nevertheless, it is understood that future generations of Iraqis, if not this one, will be enjoying a life much different from the tyranny of a brutal dictatorship.

To stand back and watch a ruling class in China enslave and oppress it's peoples in ways that, perhaps, in the end, are even more destructive, is reprehensible.

We cloak our paralysis with vague philosophical ramblings that only serve to try to justify that which cannot be justified.

International law is the wall we hide behind.

We made the law...we have a responsibility to break the law. Wherever in the world there is blatant oppression and enslavement of people...it should be our duty to go in and correct the situation.

Instead we spend two and a half years and over 1 Billion dollars trying to figure out a way to put foam on so it won't come off.

It makes me very angry...and sad. :depressed

[Willow of Oz]

I do not see the regulation of unsolicited mail, hate speech, the restriction of pornography to those over 18yrs of age and all the other examples you gave to be in the same league as the Government of China restricting use of the Internet to all of its citizens.

Roj pretty much summed up everything I was going to say...

just like to remark on the 'porn restricted to over 18s' - in Australia, for the majority of states, it's not even legal for 18+ to see actual penetration. Simulation is the name of the game. I believe there are related laws in japan.
And though I mentioned this previously in another thread, it's worth reiterating here - Australia does not have an R (ie, adult) rating for games. The maximum rating is 15+. There are penalties for sellers, and presumably owners/buyers/importers. Is this law because of community standards? Is my government oppressing my rights?

[acushla]

Roj pretty much summed up everything I was going to say...

just like to remark on the 'porn restricted to over 18s' - in Australia, for the majority of states, it's not even legal for 18+ to see actual penetration. Simulation is the name of the game. I believe there are related laws in japan.
And though I mentioned this previously in another thread, it's worth reiterating here - Australia does not have an R rating for games. 15+ max. Penalties for sellers, and presumably owners/buyers/importers. Is this a community standard? Is my government oppressing my rights?

Allow me (like you have a choice... :) ) to comment here. However, I am not entirely clear on all the points you are making...specifically the 'Australia does not have an R rating for games, 15+ max. Penalties for sellers, and presumably owners/buyers/importers. Is this a community standard?'

No matter how I read this I cannot discern what it is you are attempting to say.

Your main question/point seems to be 'Is my government oppressing your rights?'

The short answer is no and the answer is contained within the question...namely your government...a government voted in by the majority of it's citizens.

Obviously this is worlds apart from a dictator ruling a country whose citizens had no say in the matter. No voice in their own future...there is a government oppressing the rights of its people.

What is penetration? :cheeky:

[Willow of Oz]

Your main question/point seems to be 'Is my government oppressing your rights?'
The short answer is no and the answer is contained within the question...namely your government...a government voted in by the majority of it's citizens.
Obviously this is worlds apart from a dictator ruling a country whose citizens had no say in the matter. No voice in their own future...there is a government oppressing the rights of its people.

???
So if the 'majority' of the people vote in a government, then the government can't oppress the people? Hell, it could oppress the majority of the people - and all I'm saying is that it's oppressing at least a minority (1+ people by my last count) - since there's no reason for it to be interfering in my life in the manner described above. Incidently, these posts would have gone well in the thread that described what a government should do, and what it shouldn't.

What is penetration? :cheeky:
I've got a video somewhere I'll post ... no, wait, I don't, I know nothing about this except what I've *read* on websites from decadent, filthy amoral countries

[acushla]

What is penetration? :cheeky:
I've got a video somewhere I'll post ... no, wait, I don't, I know nothing about this except what I've *read* on websites from decadent, filthy amoral countries

Now you're oppressing me!!!

Beastie Boys said it best...'You've got to fight for your right to PARTY.'

[biggman15]

Now you're oppressing me!!!

Beastie Boys said it best...'You've got to fight for your right to PARTY.'
That is a great song!!!!