California - the bright light of the US? [Archive]

acushla

04-08-2005, 04:22 PM

Okay, Roj's post on republicans contained a link to a story that mentioned California in a number of spots, in what I would term a favourable light. This seems to be common.

Is California really some bright spot in the US? Or does it just seem that way from a distance (down under)? Or just to me?

link to the science article that Roj originally supplied:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65693,00.html

I lived in LA for a number of years and my Uncle is still there to this day and I visit on a fairly regular basis.

The short answer to your question is an enthusiastic and LOUD...YES.

It is said that once you arrive in LA...you never really leave...meaning that it is such a large and sprawling city that you end up taking it back to wherever you came from. This is another way of saying that if you want to know what's going to happen to your city in 10 years take a look at LA now...cause that's what it's going to look like.

California, for it's very survival, is forced to develop strategies and pass legislation to meet and avoid problems that there is no place to look for guidance. California is the bleeding edge of modern society and sets the temp plate for the rest of us. They HAVE to get it right...or we all are in trouble.

California was the first in recognizing the need to pass stringent emission laws for cars...a visit to LA would convince you before the plane had even landed.
California has banned oil based paints...all paints are now water base. Why? Oil base paints are poison to the environment. There are countless other examples from energy and water policies...plans for mass transit...housing...the introduction of one couple one child legislation and the ban on all pets. (OK...I made those last two up...sue me!)

In short...California had better get it right or else we will get it wrong.

California recognizes that non-action is paramount to a death sentence...so it moves forward the only way it can...from the dark to the light. The rest of us simply follow their lead.

Roj

04-08-2005, 04:24 PM

In short...California had better get it right or else we will get it wrong.
Then how do you explain "The Governator"?

"OOPS!!", maybe?

acushla

04-08-2005, 04:55 PM

Then how do you explain "The Governator"?

"OOPS!!", maybe?

You cannot be serious!

Anybody who has followed Californian politics will tell you first and foremost that the private Arnold is a very intelligent and astute man, not to be underestimated.

One only has to look at what he inherited from recalled Governor, Democratic Gray Davis, (who at one point was regarded as the Democrats Presidency candidate.) That evaporated quickly when a electricity shortage and rolling blackouts in the summer of 2001 contributed to massive state debt. With his total and inept mishandling of this energy crisis, many Californians were left paying up to 300%...you read that correctly, 3 0 0 %, more for their energy. All due to due to poor negotiations and lack of any vision by Davis. The people recalled him and put Arnold in this place.

One sterling characteristic of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is his ability not only to listen but to truly study and invite input on issues. He is quick to recognize a better approach to a problem, if one is presented, and acts in the interest of whats good for the State. In other words he is not ego driven in the sense of all glory...but very much a team player. As a result California is in a much stronger position than the California he inherited...things seem to be back on track and going in the right direction.

rorythedog

04-08-2005, 04:59 PM

I lived in LA for a number of years and my Uncle is still there to this day and I visit on a fairly regular basis.

The short answer to your question is an enthusiastic and LOUD...YES.

It is said that once you arrive in LA...you never really leave...meaning that it is such a large and sprawling city that you end up taking it back to wherever you came from. This is another way of saying that if you want to know what's going to happen to your city in 10 years take a look at LA now...cause that's what it's going to look like.

California, for it's very survival, is forced to develop strategies and pass legislation to meet and avoid problems that there is no place to look for guidance. California is the bleeding edge of modern society and sets the temp plate for the rest of us. They HAVE to get it right...or we all are in trouble.

California was the first in recognizing the need to pass stringent emission laws for cars...a visit to LA would convince you before the plane had even landed.
California has banned oil based paints...all paints are now water base. Why? Oil base paints are poison to the environment. There are countless other examples from energy and water policies...plans for mass transit...housing...the introduction of one couple one child legislation and the ban on all pets. (OK...I made those last two up...sue me!)

In short...California had better get it right or else we will get it wrong.

California recognizes that non-action is paramount to a death sentence...so it moves forward the only way it can...from the dark to the light. The rest of us simply follow their lead.

The "bleeding edge"? You mean literally? Seriously, you must be kidding. I wouldn't tell this to the Dutch. Or the Danes, Germans, Swedes et al. These countries have been moving this way before Californians could even spell environment.

Interesting that you should say "...we follow". Who's we? You're in Canada mate. Not the US.

Shadowraven

04-08-2005, 05:13 PM

Shadowraven

04-08-2005, 05:16 PM

You cannot be serious!

Anybody who has followed Californian politics will tell you first and foremost that the private Arnold is a very intelligent and astute man, not to be underestimated.

One only has to look at what he inherited from recalled Governor, Democratic Gray Davis, (who at one point was regarded as the Democrats Presidency candidate.) That evaporated quickly when a electricity shortage and rolling blackouts in the summer of 2001 contributed to massive state debt. With his total and inept mishandling of this energy crisis, many Californians were left paying up to 300%...you read that correctly, 3 0 0 %, more for their energy. All due to due to poor negotiations and lack of any vision by Davis. The people recalled him and put Arnold in this place.

One sterling characteristic of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is his ability not only to listen but to truly study and invite input on issues. He is quick to recognize a better approach to a problem, if one is presented, and acts in the interest of whats good for the State. In other words he is not ego driven in the sense of all glory...but very much a team player. As a result California is in a much stronger position than the California he inherited...things seem to be back on track and going in the right direction.

From what I understand he has been a very good governor. He is also very progressive for a Republican. He is one of the few I like and respect. For one thing he doesn't march in lockstep to the party line, so far.

acushla

04-08-2005, 05:20 PM

The "bleeding edge"? You mean literally? Seriously, you must be kidding. I wouldn't tell this to the Dutch. Or the Danes, Germans, Swedes et al. These countries have been moving this way before Californians could even spell environment.

Interesting that you should say "...we follow". Who's we? You're in Canada mate. Not the US.

You are absolutely correct (this time) that I had not considered anything outside of North America. I am disappointed in myself for this glaring oversight for it shows that I have subscripted to the idea that North America is somehow superior to the rest of the world. The problems that California face are issues we all need to find solutions to. Environment knows no boundaries.

Having said that...it is true in North America that California is on the bleeding edge and I believe that if you were to examine all the issues you would find that some of them are unique to California and North America. In no way is this to imply that other regions have their own issues to deal with...and hopefully meet them with the resolve and dedication and vision that California represents to us.

Do we follow? God...we've been following since we became a sovereign nation. It seems that nobody in Canada wants to admit to it...but that doesn't change the facts. The only real sense of Nationalism we have is a chain of coffee shops (Tim Horton's). People are quick to point out our National Health policies...and although I wouldn't trade them for what's south of the border...I can tell you honestly that our system is quickly slipping down a steep slope of disarray. Waiting times for operations are obscenely long...and the Government has been openly accused that the reason for this is that there is no profit in keeping you alive. Meaning that should you die while waiting for an operation the Government just saved itself a substantial amount of money. You think I'm joking? You think I'm making this up? I wish I was. No hahaha at the end of this post.

acushla

04-08-2005, 05:56 PM

Indulge me. I spoke a little bit about the current state of Health Care in Canada, something Canadians are very proud of, pointing to the fact that everybody has equal access and it is not a system that is based on he who has the most money gets to go to the front of the line.

Well...that is absolutely true...so long as you follow the concept word for word.

What is true in Canada is that if you are fortunate enough to have a very good Doctor...which invariably means you are wealthy and live in areas of the city where access to these Doctors is readily available...and then develop conditions that require Hospital care...guess what...there is very little waiting period for you. The son (21 yrs) of a women I know well developed a condition that required a kidney transplant. 6 weeks from the time it was decided he was to have this operation he was on the operating table having it done. Why? Simply because his father is one of the top lawyers in the city and has a Doctor who is one of the top Doctors in the city and who has the means and wherefore all to get things done.

No, we don't have a two tiered system...based on money. Our two tiered system is based on who you are and who you know.

Roj

04-08-2005, 06:08 PM

Anybody who has followed Californian politics will tell you first and foremost that the private Arnold is a very intelligent and astute man, not to be underestimated.

I realize that Arnold is indeed very intelligent and a tremendously shrewd businessman. However, his policy of kissing the ass of the entertainment industry and raping the rights of consumers re: "fair use" and copy protection is VERY offensive.

Might it be because he's an actor and his original power base IS the entertainment industry?

Some backup:

http://www.mofo.com/news/updates/files/update1065.html

...and the utterly moronic SB 1506:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Anonymity/20040317_eff_pr.php
http://www.grammy.com/news/artswatch/2004/0927cdsecurity.aspx

In short, he ain't the shining knight you're making him out to be and California's growing record in that area is not a good one for consumer rights. I sure hope the rest of the Union doesn't suffer from the heatstroke that California lawmakers obviously do.

madjo

04-08-2005, 10:28 PM

Agreed. California is on the leading edge in the U.S., but Europe has been ahead of us for awhile now. At least on social and enviromental issues.
sad thing is, is that our mentally handicapped Dutch government (oops sorry mr Balkenende) is trying to mimic the US healthcare system and god knows what else... oh and our more than corrupt European Government is trying very hard to recreate the same (software)patents problems as the US have. :dead:

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 12:28 AM

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 12:31 AM

sad thing is, is that our mentally handicapped Dutch government (oops sorry mr Balkenende) is trying to mimic the US healthcare system and god knows what else... oh and our more than corrupt European Government is trying very hard to recreate the same (software)patents problems as the US have. :dead:

Well of course they do. That's beacause the American way of doing things is so (cough, cough) "enlightened". :pirate:

Roj

04-09-2005, 12:50 AM

Hadn't heard that before. If true then it is rather disturbing. Makes him sound like just another Republican. Yech!

Oh it's true all right. The links are the proud press releases of when "Ah-Nahld" signed one lovely little piece of special-interest-lobby nastiness into law and how the California Supreme Court raped "fair use" as well as the Electronic Freedom Foundation's protests. That ruling was directly responsible for the demise of 3-2-1 Software which made DVD XCopy Platinum for backing up DVDs.

Fortunately, DVDJon who developed the method of decrypting DeCSS encryption used in DVDs is NOT an American citizen and so is not subject to the retroactive abortion known as DMCA. A talented boy is jon - he's also responsible for breaking the DRM encryption Apple used in that ripoff known as iTunes which prohibits you from freely copying the material you purchase from it to other media.

And it all started in California.

"Enlightened State" indeed... more like "Home Of The Hollywood Ripoff".

As to Arnold himself, surely you didn't miss his speech at the Republican Convention last Fall - the rally almost looked Third Reich-ish in terms of intensity. It honestly reminded me of the old black and white reels from that time period from the way the audience was reacting and the way he was exhorting them. I turned it off in disgust. The man sure does know how to work a crowd though...

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 01:06 AM

Oh it's true all right. The links are the proud press releases of when "Ah-Nahld" signed one lovely little piece of special-interest-lobby nastiness into law and how the California Supreme Court raped "fair use" as well as the Electronic Freedom Foundation's protests. That ruling was directly responsible for the demise of 3-2-1 Software which made DVD XCopy Platinum for backing up DVDs.

Fortunately, DVDJon who developed the method of decrypting DeCSS encryption used in DVDs is NOT an American citizen and so is not subject to the retroactive abortion known as DMCA. A talented boy is jon - he's also responsible for breaking the DRM encryption Apple used in that ripoff known as iTunes which prohibits you from freely copying the material you purchase from it to other media.

And it all started in California.

"Enlightened State" indeed... more like "Home Of The Hollywood Ripoff".

As to Arnold himself, surely you didn't miss his speech at the Republican Convention last Fall - the rally almost looked Third Reich-ish in terms of intensity. I turned it off in disgust. The man sure does know how to work a crowd though...

That figures, can't have anything good in this country without something f**king it up. It must gall them that they can't get at the people who help to thwart them. I couldn't be happier about that. That kind of frustration is good for them. Gives them an idea about how we feel all the time.

California is enlightened, in some respects, at least more than the rest of this country is. They have better enviromental standards than the rest of the country does. This country's government is too much in the hip pocket of large corporations to concern itself too much with what is good for it's citizens. They are also pretty good at convincing the knuckle-draggers that they're doing them a favor.

As for the Rebpublican National Convention is concerned, I couldn't stand to watch any of it. I can't stomach the lies and crap they spout. My wife wouldn't have let even if I'd wanted to. I would have driven her crazy cussing at the TV the way I always do when I hear them talk.

Roj

04-09-2005, 03:11 AM

They have better enviromental standards than the rest of the country does.

I don't know much aobut California but I do know that and I wholeheartedly applaud it. I have kids who have to grow up and live on this planet.

This country's government is too much in the hip pocket of large corporations to concern itself too much with what is good for it's citizens. They are also pretty good at convincing the knuckle-draggers that they're doing them a favor.

Now that's a scary thought.

As for the Rebpublican National Convention is concerned, I couldn't stand to watch any of it. I can't stomach the lies and crap they spout. My wife wouldn't have let even if I'd wanted to. I would have driven her crazy cussing at the TV the way I always do when I hear them talk.

Man, you had to see it. It made me nervous.

So, does this mean we're back on speaking terms? Am I forgiven? I honestly don't recall referring to you as a lowlife and if I somehow managed to intimate that, I do apologize since nothing could be further from my mind.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 04:09 AM

I don't know much aobut California but I do know that and I wholeheartedly applaud it. I have kids who have to grow up and live on this planet.

As do I. That's one reason I hate the current administration so much. They continue to bury their heads in the sand and pretend like nothing is wrong. Then they try to make us all believe that we can continue to live as we have with no consequences. Their short grasp of the state of reality is unreal.

Now that's a scary thought.

You're telling me. I find most of what they've managed to perpetrate on the people in this country as frightening. Especially as they continue to get away with it and still have regular people supporting them.

Man, you had to see it. It made me nervous.

Don't I know it. Everything they do does that to me. I see them trying diligently to undo what little progress this country has managed to make so far. It's easy for them to do too. All they have to do is keep telling people they don't have to make any changes in their lives or sacrifices. That is unless it is to sacrifice their lives in Iraq so some big corporations can rape Iraq and us simultaneously. I didn't need to see their convention to know what they are. I already know that. Unlike some, I've kept my eyes open!!

So, does this mean we're back on speaking terms? Am I forgiven? I honestly don't recall referring to you as a lowlife and if I somehow managed to intimate that, I do apologize since nothing could be further from my mind.

I'm cool here man. No worries, mate! I've pm'd you about it.

acushla

04-09-2005, 09:10 AM

The man sure does know how to work a crowd though...

...as does Bush. I have seriously pondered if Bush has his own sound-man that travels with him and readies everything for a speech. It doesn't seem to matter where Bush is speaking...the 'sound' is the same...and whatever one thinks of Bush (like I have to guess) he gives great speeches. It seems to be the one thing he excels at.

As for Arnold and California...well...of course he's going to favor the entertainment community...that's where he comes from, that's who his friends are. Roj...if you came to me and kept crying about how you were losing millions of dollars (wouldn't that be nice) because people were copying works of art that you had created...I would believe you had a valid case. Which the courts seem to agree with. I don't like it...you don't like it when we're told we can't just go around copying other peoples works...and the people who create those works don't like it when you copy them instead of buying them. Well...who is REALLY right? I am an artist...I'd be pissed of if somebody took one of my images and copied it and distributed it to anybody who wanted it. PISSED OFF. Tell me you wouldn't be. I learned a long time ago (and you can use this if you want, just make sure you credit me when you do...as in...a friend of mine once said:) 'Sometimes the answers in life are not what we want them to be.'

Now...back to Arnold...the way I judge anybody out of a scoring system of 10 things done right (10 being God) ... is if you get 7 out of 10, you're doing all right. Arnold is getting 7 out of 10.

I don't mind when you or anybody else zeros in on an area where, in your mind, somebody is failing miserably. Just don't make that the complete picture. Don't leave it to others to balance the picture out...do the work and balance it out yourself. You'll find you've elevated yourself into an entirely different realm of political insight.

Now...wash your hands and face, brush your teeth and go to bed.

Todd The Kiwi

04-09-2005, 09:26 AM

I'm cool here man. No worries, mate! I've pm'd you about it.oops no it wasn't ha ha ha, had to read that twice
looked like something i wrote :P

acushla

04-09-2005, 09:32 AM

SHADOWRAVEN

California – Bright Light of the U.S.?

2nd post:

From what I understand he has been a very good governor. He is also very progressive for a Republican. He is one of the few I like and respect. For one thing he doesn't march in lockstep to the party line, so far.

__________________
--Shadowraven

Much later post: Shadowraven’s comments are in BOLD:

I don't know much aobut California but I do know that and I wholeheartedly applaud it. I have kids who have to grow up and live on this planet.

As do I. That's one reason I hate the current administration so much. They continue to bury their heads in the sand and pretend like nothing is wrong. Then they try to make us all believe that we can continue to live as we have with no consequences. Their short grasp of the state of reality is unreal.

Now that's a scary thought.

You're telling me. I find most of what they've managed to perpetrate on the people in this country as frightening. Especially as they continue to get away with it and still have regular people supporting them.

Man, you had to see it. It made me nervous.

Don't I know it. Everything they do does that to me. I see them trying diligently to undo what little progress this country has managed to make so far. It's easy for them to do too. All they have to do is keep telling people they don't have to make any changes in their lives or sacrifices. That is unless it is to sacrifice their lives in Iraq so some big corporations can rape Iraq and us simultaneously. I didn't need to see their convention to know what they are. I already know that. Unlike some, I've kept my eyes open!!

So which is it, Shadowraven, because now I’m confused:…you really like him?…or you really hate him?

This isn’t an example of ’which ever team seems to be winning (re: this forum) bandwagon’?...is it?

madjo

04-09-2005, 10:18 AM

As for Arnold and California...well...of course he's going to favor the entertainment community...that's where he comes from, that's who his friends are. Roj...if you came to me and kept crying about how you were losing millions of dollars (wouldn't that be nice) because people were copying works of art that you had created...I would believe you had a valid case. Which the courts seem to agree with. I don't like it...you don't like it when we're told we can't just go around copying other peoples works...and the people who create those works don't like it when you copy them instead of buying them. Well...who is REALLY right? I am an artist...I'd be pissed of if somebody took one of my images and copied it and distributed it to anybody who wanted it. PISSED OFF. Tell me you wouldn't be. I learned a long time ago (and you can use this if you want, just make sure you credit me when you do...as in...a friend of mine once said:) 'Sometimes the answers in life are not what we want them to be.' well okay, I can understand that, for you as an independant artist... but would you go so far to have the consumer rights be destroyed in favor of your profit? (as the large entertainment conglomerates seem to do) indeed distributing the work is illegal, but it is legal to make a backup copy, but with those legislations it becomes illegal to do even though the consumer has the right to do it.

Right now, when you buy a dvd or cd or movie you get treated like a potential criminal, by the large companies.
DMCA is NOT the way to solve this... These companies are trying very hard to keep their old ways of distributing their wares, instead of investing into new ones, because the latter costs them also money.
bah!

Willow of Oz

04-09-2005, 12:50 PM

Okay, we've probably wandered way off topic, but ... this is pretty interesting:
http://neil.eton.ca/copylevy.shtml
- Canadian copyright levy on blank audio CDs -.
choice quote:

Can I legally copy music CDs for my friends?
The simple answer is NO, but you can legally copy your friend's music CD for YOUR OWN use.

The article goes on to list other countries with similar levies. The levy gets distributed out to all artists based on their sales.

Furthermore, with regards to whether you can download music off the internet in a similar manner, basically you're not allowed to upload it (this is public broadcasting), but ...

However, unless the legislation is changed or the courts interpret matters differently, it appears that making a private copy for your own use of a musical work downloaded in any manner from the internet is not an infringement of copyright.

acushla

04-09-2005, 03:13 PM

well okay, bah!

I find it interesting that you use independent artist…consumer rights…profit…and large entertainment conglomerates in the same sentence and then ask me if I would favour forgoing some of my profits to keep those consumer rights?

Are you crazy? Do you really have to ask? Let’s begin with with ‘Rights…what rights?’ YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS EXCEPT THE RIGHT TO GO INTO A RETAIL OUTLET AND PURCHASE OUR PRODUCT. What makes you think you have rights? Who told you that?..Last time I checked I was living in a free Democratic society that encourages and rewards individual intuitive and entrepreneurial ventures and recognizes and protects the patents and copyright material that is created through this process.

If this is somehow is not what you thought Democracy was and think you would prefer something else I think you are in the wrong place…Communism and Socialist societies are two blocks down and to the left. Go whine,,er, complain there. They will shake their heads in symphony and understanding and make you a nice cup of tea.

Last time I checked… going into ANY store and walking out with a product without payment is considered theft.

What has happened is that society now has a found a secret cosmic portal allowing it to go into the biggest warehouse known and leaving with as much music and entertainment product as it wants. They cover up their sin by calling it ‘downloading’…not wanting to believe that ‘downloading’ is just another word for ‘stealing’. To make it worse they then attempt to justify their actions by talking about their ‘imaginary’ rights and pointing to the sheer size of the industry that does’t work for our interests so it’s OK to steal. And the one I like the best…they/ve been ripping us off for years man, so now it’s our turn.

You know…I feel the same way about money. There is just so much of it in the hands of corporations and Governments that’s been the result of my slaving in their workplace all these years (that’s the ripoff) and I’m just going to go down to a BANK with my computer, er, I meant GUN, and ‘download’ some. Oh no…that’s NOT stealing…why do you think that?

Somebody comes to me with a copy of one of my images that they didn’t pay for and talking some nonsense about his ‘rights’…that man is either brave or stupid or both… because he obviously hasn't’t heard of my right to give him a black eye. Rights? What the f*#k are you talking about?

Right now, when you buy a dvd or CD or movie you get treated like a potential criminal, by the large companies.

Not me…I get a smile and have a nice day.

DMCA is NOT the way to solve this... These companies are trying very hard to keep their old ways of distributing their wares, instead of investing into new ones, because the latter costs them also money.
Bah!

This sentence should have been written: These companies are trying very hard to keep their old ways of maintaining their profit margins. They are investing millions into new encryption methods to embed in the product….just read about what’s protecting SACD’s.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 03:56 PM

...as does Bush. I have seriously pondered if Bush has his own sound-man that travels with him and readies everything for a speech. It doesn't seem to matter where Bush is speaking...the 'sound' is the same...and whatever one thinks of Bush (like I have to guess) he gives great speeches. It seems to be the one thing he excels at.

As for Arnold and California...well...of course he's going to favor the entertainment community...that's where he comes from, that's who his friends are. Roj...if you came to me and kept crying about how you were losing millions of dollars (wouldn't that be nice) because people were copying works of art that you had created...I would believe you had a valid case. Which the courts seem to agree with. I don't like it...you don't like it when we're told we can't just go around copying other peoples works...and the people who create those works don't like it when you copy them instead of buying them. Well...who is REALLY right? I am an artist...I'd be pissed of if somebody took one of my images and copied it and distributed it to anybody who wanted it. PISSED OFF. Tell me you wouldn't be. I learned a long time ago (and you can use this if you want, just make sure you credit me when you do...as in...a friend of mine once said:) 'Sometimes the answers in life are not what we want them to be.'

Now...back to Arnold...the way I judge anybody out of a scoring system of 10 things done right (10 being God) ... is if you get 7 out of 10, you're doing all right. Arnold is getting 7 out of 10.

I don't mind when you or anybody else zeros in on an area where, in your mind, somebody is failing miserably. Just don't make that the complete picture. Don't leave it to others to balance the picture out...do the work and balance it out yourself. You'll find you've elevated yourself into an entirely different realm of political insight.

Now...wash your hands and face, brush your teeth and go to bed.

As for copying art that is a fair enough comment. The only diffrence is that your art doesn't go through as many middlemen and, if I'm right, you probably get a large share of what you sell. Most of the time with art the artist only makes money from it on the original sale, not any subsequent ones. Am I right?

That IS NOT the case with music, most of the money there goes to the record companies. Even most of the artists themselves don't have a problem with the copying. It's the companies themselves that do. There would probably be less copying if CD's were priced more reasonably. They also put out so much crap nowadays I'm hesitant to buy anything until I've heard it. I'm not about to waste MY money on crap. Many people I know listen to the music they download for awhile then buy the CD. Let's face it, the CD does sound better than the MP3. But if most of the CD is crap, I'll live with just the MP3 of 1 or 2 songs from it. If they want to make more money they need to come up with a new model of selling the music.

As far as movies are concerned the only ones losing there are the distributors, and they are not losing that much. Now if you are asking me to feel sorry for big entertainment corporation is losing money, you're barking up the wrong tree. They make quite a bit of it from the theater distribution. Seems like they did OK before the advent of video, they'll be fine now. If they lose any money now it's because movies are too expensive to see, and people wait to see it on video. Whose fault is that? The production team loses nothing, they are paid a hourly rate and that doesn't change with how much money the movie makes. Regardless of what the new theater ads would have you believe.

As for Arnold you are right. He is mostly doing a good job to all appearances. However, anyone in the Republican Party who supports it's platform is suspect in my opinion.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 04:04 PM

jkrzok

04-09-2005, 04:11 PM

I find it interesting that you use independent artist…consumer rights…profit…and large entertainment conglomerates in the same sentence and then ask me if I would favour forgoing some of my profits to keep those consumer rights?

Right now, when you buy a dvd or CD or movie you get treated like a potential criminal, by the large companies.

Not me…I get a smile and have a nice day.

DMCA is NOT the way to solve this... These companies are trying very hard to keep their old ways of distributing their wares, instead of investing into new ones, because the latter costs them also money.
Bah!

This sentence should have been written: These companies are trying very hard to keep their old ways of maintaining their profit margins. They are investing millions into new encryption methods to embed in the product….just read about what’s protecting SACD’s.

I think some of the issue comes from what you think you're buying. When you go into a record store you think you're buying a CD. But a CD is just a shiny piece of plastic. What you're really buying is the music on the CD. The CD is merely part of the distribution chain that gets the music to you. For me the CD is almost as immaterial as the truck that delivered the CD to the store.

Now for me, as I have bought the MUSIC I should be able to do what I want wirth the MUSIC. I want to listen to the MUSIC in my car but see no reason why the original CD should be in the car. Cars are dangerous places for shiny pieces of plastic. So why shouldn't I be able to copy the CD to another very cheap piece of plastic and protect the MUSIC I bought on the original (master) CD? Why shouldn't I be able to listen to the music on my PC by putting a copy of the original MUSIC in the form of mp3s on my PC?

The RIAA is all about limiting my choices in how I listen to the MUSIC I bought and I find that just plain wrong.

Yesterday I bought a CD. I came home, put the CD in my PC's CD player and found that the record company thought it would be allright to autoinstall some software on MY PC all in the name of protecting their profits. If someone autoinstalls some crap on my machine I consider that a VERY BAD THING no better than a virus or piece of spyware.

I promptly returned the CD to the record store and made sure the management knew why I was returning it.

I won't say whether I ripped a copy of it first. :devil:

There's part of me that now wants to seek out these "protected" CDs, buy them, and then return them to the record store. Stores HATE returns. Perhaps if the stores see these abortions of corporate profiteering as an issue they may shake things up.

acushla

04-09-2005, 04:13 PM

There IS no discrepancy in the post you copied. I'm talking about Dubya and the Republican Party here, not Arnold. I've never left any doubt about how I feel about them. In that post to Roj California is mentioned only in passing. My original comments about Arnold are what I've seen up to that point about him. Any negatives about Arnold that may be in any other posts is in response to new information (to me) from Roj about what he is doing. Even that response is not that negative, it just shows concern. I NEVER jump follow any crowd unless I believe they are right.

Me...confused...no more. Thanks.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 04:36 PM

The RIAA is all about limiting my choices in how I listen to the MUSIC I bought and I find that just plain wrong.

Yesterday I bought a CD. I came home, put the CD in my PC's CD player and found that the record company thought it would be allright to autoinstall some software on MY PC all in the name of protecting their profits. If someone autoinstalls some crap on my machine I consider that a VERY BAD THING no better than a virus or piece of spyware.

Couldn't agree more with the first part. If I bought it's my decision what I should do with it, regardless of how the RIAA tries to justify their crap.

The next part is scary, it's the first time I've heard that. What gives them the right ot install software on my computer without my permission? It seems to me something could be done about something like that. Like you said, that is little better than a virus or spyware, especially if there is no warning ahead of time that it will happen. Lets face it. It's installing a program on your computer without your OK first. This program will in turn affect the way your computer operates. The very definition of a virus. If it's illegal for a hacker to do it, it should be illegal for a corporation as well. Gee, I wonder why it's not, hmmm....

chicubs

04-09-2005, 04:46 PM

Yah, besides that whole gang warfare thing, they are doing alright.

acushla

04-09-2005, 04:55 PM

Most of the time with art the artist only makes money from it on the original sale, not any subsequent ones. Am I right?

Not if he has a good agent he doesn't’t…there are what is known as residual sales…meaning that every-time the image is used a payment is made to the artist through his agent. Unless you negotiate a sale of all rights in which case you have decided to take all your money up front and anything that happens to that image subsequently has nothing to do with you any longer

Art as a commodity can be very misunderstood…generally because the people doing the considering do not think of art as being a community…like a tire, a chair, tiles, or china. Or Cd’s. Art is all of these…it is a product like any other product. The ‘artist’ is the one who is directly responsible for it’s creation. That can be anything from the investors who finance the building of the factory and machinery and hire the workers to produce the product. From the time that the raw materials are brought to the factory to the time the finished product is boxed and shipped out across the country/world there has been ad campaigns, sales personal on the road pitching the product in various markets, contracts signed and all the things that go into a smoothly running and successful business. Everybody gets a share. What constitutes a ‘fair’ share is partly determined by government in the form of ‘minimal wage’ and a list of regulations governing the work place. Everything else is related to aptitude, motivation, talent, and negotiation. Then there are the owners and investors who conceived of an idea and took all the risks in seeing that idea through. How much is that worth? In our society that is worth a great deal because if it wasn’t it wouldn’t get done. You may not think that these people deserve what they get but you are not those people and unless you are planning a revolution anytime soon I can assure you it isn't’t going to change.

Now if I am an ‘Artist’ and I approach a book publishing company with an idea for a book of my photographs and they decide this is a good idea…why do you suppose they think this is a good idea. Because they like me…and want to help me? No…it is because they look at my work and they see $$$$ meaning profit for themselves. So they write me up a deal…and they are pretty upfront about that deal…I get X amount (you can slice this and arrive at this in any number of formulas…but it always comes down to the same thing…I get X amount.)…while they…if it is successful gets X+12 amount. Is this fair? You bet it is. Without them I get nothing and nobody sees my work…and there is no guarantee to them they will get X+12. They have the printing presses, the personal and a distribution network and the means and ways to get my work out…I simply walked through the front door with a bunch of images in my portfolio. I walked through their front door and essentially asked for help. I asked them to help me.

Now, if my arrangement with this firm is that I receive X amount for signing on the dotted line plus Y for each unit that sales beyond 50.000…then I am going to tell you I am going to be VERY UPSET if a bunch of people have copied my work instead of buying it. I have just lost revenue from my creation. Then people tell me they have the ‘right’ to do that. I simply tell them that they are in denial and don’t want to admit they are thieves.

What was the question?

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 05:06 PM

Not if he has a good agent he doesn't’t…there are what is known as residual sales…meaning that every-time the image is used a payment is made to the artist through his agent. Unless you negotiate a sale of all rights in which case you have decided to take all your money up front and anything that happens to that image subsequently has nothing to do with you any longer

Pretty much what I thought. I knew what you just said was possible. However, as far as I know, the people in your industry (and the book publishing) don't have a history of gouging the public at large. The aud/vid industry do. You don't install God-knows-what on my computer without my permission. The last paperback I bought didn't either. Most people I know will even still pay for what they download, if they like it enough. The quality's better on the retail version, usually. But they're not going to buy it until they know they like it. Otherwise they feel they're being ripped off with sub-standard crap. Precisely what is being put out in large amounts by those companies. I have no problem with an artist getting paid for their work, they deserve to be. My problem is with the companies that distribute that work and then gouge everyone involved.

Roj

04-09-2005, 05:07 PM

Furthermore, with regards to whether you can download music off the internet in a similar manner, basically you're not allowed to upload it (this is public broadcasting), but ...

In Canada, the Copyright Board doesn't make law.

They're looking to change the law regarding file sharing in this country.

I'm looking to encourage people to fight those changes.

As I said a while back (my plate has been a bit full), Stay Tuned...

The entertainment industry has ripped off the public and had their way for entirely too long (I'm speaking aobut DVDs and music). It's time the buck stopped before they control and suppress new technology for their own ends. There is a precedent in Canda regarding file sharing. I view it as no different than tapes. The hypocites in the recording industry said tapes would kill them. They were liars and have been proven to be since tapes actually GREW the industry by exposing people to new artists, whose works many then went out and bought. Stopping file sharing won't improve music sales - if someone wasn't going to buy, they won't with or without file sharing in the same way that they did or didn't back in the tape days. That's what these greedy parasiotes don't want to recognize. They also don't realize that the golden days of music sales are over - they had a hammerlock on the market and inflated profits due to a changeover in media (where incidentally they ripped off consumers). That's not going to happen again any time soon, 5.1 hype notwithstaning.

From purely a technological point of view, thinking that the technological breeding ground that is the itnernet can be stopped is a fantasy. So is believing that copy protection will EVER work.

The entertainment industry hasn't learned - yet.

But they will.

At the very least, Moore's Law is against them.

My uncle was in the music business in jamaica - that's who got me hooked on it. He had a record company in the island and a studio. I remember his dscussion on royalities to the American companies who made much of the music he distributed and how they inflated prices (this is back in the sixties and seventies so it ain't a new tale). I was a club DJ for a number of years and saw DJ product prices rise astronomically - again artifically inflated. I know exactly what kind of people we're dealing with.

They Ain't Pretty.

Oh and jkrzok's summation of consumer rights is DEAD ON ACCXURATE. I pay == my right.

Be aware that I'm not commenting on any other industry because I don't have the knowledgebase. I do however have a pretty good grasp on the music industry and what goes on in it for reasons stated above.

acushla

04-09-2005, 05:23 PM

Most people I know will even still pay for what they download, if they like it enough.

I forgot to address this...sometime back I indicated that here in Toronto I can go and spend days (if I want) at the bigger music stores (Sam's and HMV...HMV is the music department of your BORDERS) picking out and listening to any disc they have in the store.

I am leading the charge against the music business that expects you to purchase their product unheard with a no return policy. I cannot think of too many other products that expect you to do that.

Roj

04-09-2005, 05:40 PM

I forgot to address this...sometime back I indicated that here in Toronto I can go and spend days (if I want) at the bigger music stores (Sam's and HMV...HMV is the music department of your BORDERS) picking out and listening to any disc they have in the store.

I am leading the charge against the music business that expects you to purchase their product unheard with a no return policy. I cannot think of too many other products that expect you to do that.

You know, I used to do that. Now I dowhload the mp3s, give 'em a listen and if I like it enough, go buy it. My latest purchase (last night) was Miles - the Complete Seven Steps. If the store policy change, would I? Nah - this is just too convenient now. :)

The whole music business pissed me off by wanting it ALL on their terms.

Now as far as I'm concerned, I'll have it on NONE of their terms - only mine. And I'm just a part of what will soon be the majority.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 05:41 PM

I forgot to address this...sometime back I indicated that here in Toronto I can go and spend days (if I want) at the bigger music stores (Sam's and HMV...HMV is the music department of your BORDERS) picking out and listening to any disc they have in the store.

I am leading the charge against the music business that expects you to purchase their product unheard with a no return policy. I cannot think of too many other products that expect you to do that.

Not many stores around here that will do that. With the ones that do I'm not inclined to stand in line to wait and hear it. When I do wait to use them I then have other people waiting behind me impatiently and rushing my listening. I'm also conscious of how unsanitary a pair of headphones everyone is using are. Public items like that are how diseases are spread. I'll keep my listening at home, thank you very much.:evolved:

acushla

04-09-2005, 05:52 PM

IThere's part of me that now wants to seek out these "protected" CDs, buy them, and then return them to the record store. Stores HATE returns. Perhaps if the stores see these abortions of corporate profiteering as an issue they may shake things up.

I want to listen to the MUSIC in my car but see no reason why the original CD should be in the car. Cars are dangerous places for shiny pieces of plastic. So why shouldn't I be able to copy the CD to another very cheap piece of plastic and protect the MUSIC I bought on the original (master) CD?

When it comes to listening to the CD in your car I know in Canada we had a tax on tapes to directly compensate the music industry for their lost profit.

Why shouldn't I be able to listen to the music on my PC by putting a copy of the original MUSIC in the form of mp3s on my PC?

You should be able to...what you shouldn't be able to do is make a copy of that CD and give it to your girlfriend. Since that is precisely what you would be able to do (oh jkrzok...even if you HAD a girlfriend I KNOW you wouldn't do that!) then they have no choice but to make certain you weren't able to.

The RIAA is all about limiting my choices in how I listen to the MUSIC I bought and I find that just plain wrong.

The RIAA is giving you music to listen to.

Like I say to Roj...don't like it? Don't buy it. After all...if you just keep buying the product mumbling all the way to and from the store...why torture yourself like that. Do you have any idea how quickly things would change if we ALL just stopped buying music? To paraphrase Roj...'...the've been making us grumble a long time...let's make them grumble.' (or something like that.)

Yesterday I bought a CD. I came home, put the CD in my PC's CD player and found that the record company thought it would be alright to autoinstall some software on MY PC all in the name of protecting their profits. If someone autoinstalls some crap on my machine I consider that a VERY BAD THING no better than a virus or piece of spyware.

I am not certain exactly what was downloaded onto your computer. The only reference point I have is a Beyonce album (she's a somewhat popular singer - maybe you've heard of her?...er…one of my models left it here after a shoot…yes…that’s right…I remember now…she left it after a shoot) and, absent mindfully, distracted by the phone ringing it somehow ended up in my computer. I knew this because there is a very nice picture of her on my monitor telling me IF I WANT I can link up to a site where I could see more pictures and learn some cool facts that I always wanted to know (like what sign she is). I simply attributed it to progress in Cd’s and Marketing (if you like) which I really like because now I know what sign she is. I don't’t think anything else was secretly installed on my computer…nothing that Microsoft Anti-Spyware picked up. (You should be having a chuckle at that last sentence!)

I promptly returned the CD to the record store and made sure the management knew why I was returning it.

You go girl.

I won't say whether I ripped a copy of it first. :devil:

You just did and made their point at the same time.

Oh yes...right after '...maybe you've heard of her?' there should have been a hahaha.

acushla

04-09-2005, 05:58 PM

My latest purchase (last night) was Miles - the Complete Seven Steps.

I'll be right over...I just need to tell my woman what I want ready for dinner when I get home.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 06:05 PM

The RIAA is giving you music to listen to.....

Dead wrong. The RIAA is not, the artists are. The RIAA is part of the industry middleman who is trying to wring out the last penny they can from everyone involved. The artist never sees most of it and they produced the content these bloodsuckers are living off of.

...You just did and made their point at the same time.

Yes he did. He also made the point of why they don't deserve the profit from their ill-gotten gains. They just hate the fact that the genie is out of the bottle and they can't control him anymore. The long and the short of it is the power is in the consumer's hands here and they can't tolerate that.

Roj

04-09-2005, 06:11 PM

I'll be right over...I just need to tell my woman what I want ready for dinner when I get home.
I was definitely in a sorry state of mind - all the troubles in my universe closed in on me, so I sat there listening to it and chatting to first Sheepeh via IM and then the Raven via PM.

About copy protected CDs:

Massive Attack's 100th Window was one. I broke the copy protection, ripped it and uploaded it in lossless, ogg and mp3 formats tot he appropriate groups. People, including artists, need to be taught that making things difficult for customers has consequences.

The new Moby is copy protected as well. I downloaded it and like it. We'll see what happens with that one, especially since Moby mde the statement in the past that he wouldn't be doing that to his CDs.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 06:23 PM

I was definitely in a sorry state of mind - all the troubles in my universe closed in on me, so I sat there listening to it and chatting to first Sheepeh via IM and then the Raven via PM.

About copy protected CDs:

Massive Attack's 100th Window was one. I broke the copy protection, ripped it and uploaded it in lossless, ogg and mp3 formats tot he appropriate groups. People, including artists, need to be taught that making things difficult for customers has consequences.

The new Moby is copy protected as well. I downloaded it and like it. We'll see what happens with that one, especially since Moby mde the statement in the past that he wouldn't be doing that to his CDs.

Ooo! He has a new one out? I'll have to check out the mp3 NG out to see if anyone has uploaded it yet. I like alot of his stuff. If you like it I probably will too, from what you said your tastes are.

Sorry acushla, sometimes that is the only way I can afford new music until I can buy it.

acushla

04-09-2005, 06:37 PM

Sorry acushla, sometimes that is the only way I can afford new music until I can buy it.

Hey man...I probably do more downloading than all of you put together! The difference seems to be that I can openly admit to being a thief...dosn't bother me. I mean, really, look who I'm stealing from. I don't talk about 'rights' or justify it because they've been 'ripping me off' so now it's my turn...I do it because I can do it. I don't really care about any other aspect of it.

I just like messing with everybody's heads to get them thinking. Devil's advocate, if you will. I mean really..we can't just all be sitting here congratulating one another on how we all agree with everything the other has to say. What fun would that be? Not to mention where's the learning in that?

That's why I don't take any of it too seriously...this is my fun...and I really don't want ANYBODY to take any of what I may say too seriously either. That is not to say I don't believe every word I write...but then you need to know from what perspective I'm writing it from. I wear many hats...and look good in all of them. It's an exercise so we learn what we think and then how to express it. If that ISN'T why we're here...then perhaps somebody could explain why we are.

Roj

04-09-2005, 06:49 PM

Ooo! He has a new one out? I'll have to check out the mp3 NG out to see if anyone has uploaded it yet. I like alot of his stuff. If you like it I probably will too, from what you said your tastes are.

Sorry acushla, sometimes that is the only way I can afford new music until I can buy it.

From what I'm told, the copy protection is insidious and also unethical. It enters ERRORS in the material INTENTIONALLY and relies on the oversampling capabilities of your CD player to gloss ovr them and play the music. If you understand how oversampling works, this is a CLEAR violation of Red Book standards and also guarantees that not only will it not be able to be played on computer CD-ROMs but also on many car stereos, portable players and even set-top CD players. Fianlly, you are essentially being sold itnentionally damaged goods and that constitutes FRAUD.

Moby is one of my favorite artists and I don't understand how he allowed this to happen.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 06:50 PM

Hey man...I probably do more downloading than all of you put together! The difference seems to be that I can openly admit to being a thief...dosn't bother me. I mean, really, look who I'm stealing from. I don't talk about 'rights' or justify it because they've been 'ripping me off' so now it's my turn...I do it because I can do it. I don't really care about any other aspect of it.

I just like messing with everybody's heads to get them thinking. Devil's advocate, if you will. I mean really..we can't just all be sitting here congratulating one another on how we all agree with everything the other has to say. What fun would that be? Not to mention where's the learning in that?

That's why I don't take any of it too seriously...this is my fun...and I really don't want ANYBODY to take any of what I may say too seriously either. That is not to say I don't believe every word I write...but then you need to know from what perspective I'm writing it from. I wear many hats...and look good in all of them. It's an exercise so we learn what we think and then how to express it. If that ISN'T why we're here...then perhaps somebody could explain why we are.

Same here really. I never pretended it was anything else. Might call that conditional ethics I suppose. That also doesn't mean I don't believe what I said. I was just telling you why I don't feel even a little guilty about it.

You probably wouldn't be surprised to learn that alot of police officers download this stuff as well. That doesn't mean they are not honest people, they just don't see the harm in it. They also feel the same way I do about the industry.

acushla

04-09-2005, 07:07 PM

You probably wouldn't be surprised to learn that alot of police officers download this stuff as well. That doesn't mean they are not honest people, they just don't see the harm in it. They also feel the same way I do about the industry.

You still don't get it. People who download are dishonest people...they are breaking the law. By definition that makes them dishonest people Like me.

I don't feel one way or the other about the Industry. That's what it is...an Industry. I can't think of one Industry in the History of Mankind that was there for our benefit instead to their benefit. They do what they do...I do what I do...and what I do lots of times with the Music Industry is buy their box sets of Miles and the DVD-Audio's of Led Zeppelin and disc's by Renee Fleming and the like and download the Mothers of Invention. .

When I realize that the mp3 quality of a download is now interfering with my enjoyment of the music then I will go out and buy that disc as well.

Keeps me happy

Roj

04-09-2005, 07:08 PM

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 07:08 PM

From what I'm told, the copy protection is insidious and also unethical. It enters ERRORS in the material INTENTIONALLY and relies on the oversampling capabilities of your CD player to gloss ovr them and play the music. If you understand how oversampling works, this is a CLEAR violation of Red Book standards and also guarantees that not only will it not be able to be played on computer CD-ROMs but also on many car stereos, portable players and even set-top CD players. Fianlly, you are essentially being sold itnentionally damaged goods and that constitutes FRAUD.

Moby is one of my favorite artists and I don't understand how he allowed this to happen.

Yeah, I know. That is one reason I hate copy protection. You may remember when they first started doing it with video tapes and how that screwed them up. I want the pure unobstructed signal, not a distorted piece of crap.

As for Moby, I can't understand that either, since he produces his own music. He said he was dead set against that kind of sh*t. Maybe it comes from the distributor, but who knows.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 07:17 PM

You still don't get it. People who download are dishonest people...they are breaking the law. By definition that makes them dishonest people Like me.

I don't feel one way or the other about the Industry. That's what it is...an Industry. I can't think of one Industry in the History of Mankind that was there for our benefit instead to their benefit. They do what they do...I do what I do...and what I do lots of times with the Music Industry is buy their box sets of Miles and the DVD-Audio's of Led Zeppelin and disc's by Renee Fleming and the like and download the Mothers of Invention. .

When I realize that the mp3 quality of a download is now interfering with my enjoyment of the music then I will go out and buy that disc as well.

Keeps me happy

No you don't get what I'm saying. It is the golden rule being played out here. Not rationalization, karma, if you will. We may also have different ideas of just what constitutes honesty. But even basically honest people can be dishonest in small ways, as in this case. Like me. But I disagree about it necessarily being against the law. Maybe any revised one, but not under the original copyright laws. It's fair use.

I'll be the first one to say that I have a conditional code of ethics, but it is one that I stick to like glue. One is for individuals, the other is for large corporations. As in Wicca, I weigh whether any harm is being done. You would be hard pressed to convince me I'm doing any harm to them.

However, I also agree with Roj in the post above. I get an irrational amount of pleasure in sticking it to them for a change. Like Roj, I also have a rather wide mean streak in me that I usually (98% of the time) keep under control. I don't really pretend otherwise, revenge can be sweet however obtained.

acushla

04-09-2005, 07:27 PM

However, Miles in mp3 and Miles at CD quality are two different things entirely.

All my Miles is on CD…it never even crossed my mind to put it on mp3. However, I did convert everything to WAV and put it on several DVD’s, burn two copies of each, put each disc into a jewel sleeve and put both sets into Glad Bags. One set sits in my safe and the other is with a close friend at her house. Now when the building burns down I couldn't’t care less.

But I do take a perverse glee in sticking it to avaricious fat-cat scum who richly merit it as a byproduct - that's pure delicious self-indulgence of my rather pronounced mean streak (and oh yes, I most definitely do have one)

Whoope...let the trumpets blare their joyous noise..Roj has made my heart sing…complete and unabashed HONESTY…gotta’ love it. See…dosen't it make you feel better just to tell the truth? It’s just so much easier than coming up with all sorts of hollow reasons trying to justify something that dosn't’t need justifying. Screw ‘em.

There's only ONE way I could have said it better using two words.

Roj

04-09-2005, 07:27 PM

Roj

04-09-2005, 07:28 PM

Whoope...let the trumpets blare their joyous noise..Roj has made my heart sing…complete and unabashed HONESTY…gotta’ love it. See…dosen't it make you feel better just to tell the truth? It’s just so much easier than coming up with all sorts of hollow reasons trying to justify something that dosn't’t need justifying. Screw ‘em.
OK, now that you've fixed that, I can reply to the above:

All of the reasons I gave are perfectly valid too - if you believe in karma (tongue squarely in cheek). What goes around, comes around and all that jazz. Think of it from the perspective of being a Karmic Agent, so to speak. :) :) :)

On a serious note, consumer rights are never something to joke about or take lightly - and those ARE being abridged on a daily basis by the bastards in the entertainment industry. The concept of buying an album on CD and again for use on a portable player AND not being able to use it anywhere else is all too real. It's that retroactive abortion known as iTunes and personally, anyone who subsidizes that crap needs their head examined - under a Gamma Knife. A dollar US a song for lossy content is THEFT since that is more than you're paying for the lossless variety, one that the companies would dearly love to lock up with copy protection in the same way that they lock up digital music with DRM filth.

That's no rationalization - those are the unsavory facts and unethical business practices on the market today.

DVDJon and others who smash DRM copy protection are heroes of the digital age. And the majors WILL be taught that lesson.

All that being said, I still prefer my little bit of nasty a whole lot more. :)

Almost as much as I'd appreciate giving Jack Valenti an axe kick to the 'nads.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 07:34 PM

acushla

04-09-2005, 07:35 PM

You still don't get it. People who download are dishonest people...they are breaking the law.

Um, not to put too fine a point on it or split heairs but no they're not. Not in this country. I've had many a heated and erisive argument on CDFreaks on that one point. And if that write-in campaign is successful, they never will be.

If you had read it CAREFULLY you might have noticed that Shadowraven, who lives in the USA, was talking about fellow officers he knew, who also live in the USA, who he explained were downloading in the USA.

What is or isn't legal in Canada had no relevance to that conversation.

How run along...wash your hands and face...don't forget to brush your teeth and go to bed.

Roj

04-09-2005, 07:55 PM

If you had read it CAREFULLY you might have noticed that Shadowraven, who lives in the USA, was talking about fellow officers he knew, who also live in the USA, who he explained were downloading in the USA.

What is or isn't legal in Canada had no relevance to that conversation.

How run along...wash your hands and face...don't forget to brush your teeth and go to bed.

Damn you - now you've thrown the whole thing out of sequence. Go back up and read my "fix those fonts" thing again. I changed it after you fixed said fonts and while you replied as above.

audit trail AUDIT TRAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I'll concede the US point.

By the way and as an aside, how long do you think it's gonna be before the other denizens here start referring to you , me and the Raven as The Unholy Trinity? :) :) :)

acushla

04-09-2005, 08:01 PM

OK, now that you;ve fixed that, I can reply to the above.

Wow...you caught that first post real quick. As soon as I posted I withdrew it to edit the font directions out. Often times I will write my reply using ATLANTIS and then cut and paste. I do this because several times I have lost entire replies and I have to take another 1/2 day from working to type it all out again...although I must admit my second go round is ALWAYS better than the first time.

When I post it all the font instructions shows up (for the first time) so I bring it back...delete what's not supposed to be there (other than my enlightened insight that is) and send it back to the forum.

You must have caught it in that 10 seconds or so that it takes for me to get it back.

So...listen up everybody...if you see that...wait...and then reply to the one that looks fine.

Now I'm not responsible anymore. I love not being responsible.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:04 PM

OK, now that you've fixed that, I can reply to the above:

All of the reasons I gave are perfectly valid too - if you believe in karma (tongue squarely in cheek). What goes around, comes around and all that jazz. Think of it from the perspective of being a Karmic Agent, so to speak. :) :) :)

On a serious note, consumer rights are never something to joke about or take lightly - and those ARE being abridged on a daily basis by the bastards in the entertainment industry. The concept of buying an album on CD and again for use on a portable player AND not being able to use it anywhere else is all too real. It's that retroactive abortion known as iTunes and personally, anyone who subsidizes that crap needs their head examined - under a Gamma Knife. A dollar US a song for lossy content is THEFT since that is more than you're paying for the lossless variety, one that the companies would dearly love to lock up with copy protection in the same way that they lock up digital music with DRM filth.

That's no rationalization - those are the unsavory facts and unethical business practices on the market today.

DVDJon and others who smash DRM copy protection are heroes of the digital age. And the majors WILL be taught that lesson.

All that being said, I still prefer my little bit of nasty a whole lot more. :)

Almost as much as I'd appreciate giving Jack Valenti an axe kick to the 'nads.

Dammit quit making me your yes man Roj:biggrin:

I agree with that and that is where I'm coming from. Forget the rationalzation arguement, as far as I'm concerned it IS karma. No one else is to protect us fro this crap so it becomes our responsibility to fight against it in any way we can. Petty or major. Besides, it feels so gooood!

Roj

04-09-2005, 08:04 PM

Wow...you caught that first post real quick. As soon as I posted I withdrew it to edit the font directions out. Often times I will write my reply using ATLANTIS and then cut and paste. I do this because several times I have lost entire replies and I have to take another 1/2 day from working to type it all out again...although I must admit my second go round is ALWAYS better than the first time.

When I post it all the font instructions shows up (for the first time) so I bring it back...delete what's not supposed to be there (other than my enlightened insight that is) and send it back to the forum.

You must have caught it in that 10 seconds or so that it takes for me to get it back.

So...listen up everybody...if you see that...wait...and then reply to the one that looks fine.

Now I'm not responsible anymore. I love not being responsible.

What's ATLANTIS (no snarky comments about lost continents, please)? And I occasionally do my larger missives in OpenOffice, then paste them to ConTEXT editor to sanitize them of font codes and finally to the board for final copy.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:10 PM

By the way and as an aside, how long do you think it's gonna be before the other denizens here start calling you , me and the Raven the Unholy Trinity? :) :) :)

Do you really think so! Oh goody, goody, goody! I've always wanted to be part of an Unholy Trinity! They get to have all the fun!!! :cheeky::evil:

Roj

04-09-2005, 08:13 PM

Do you really think so! Oh goody, goody, goody! I've always wanted to be part of an Unholy Trinity! They get to have all the fun!!! :cheeky::evil:
And all of this to Miles in the background...

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:17 PM

What's ATLANTIS (no snarky comments about lost continents, please)? And I occasionally do my larger missives in OpenOffice, then paste them to ConTEXT editor to sanitize them of font codes and finally to the board for final copy.

So that's why you two disappear occasionally from the forum when answering posts. Makes sense now.

Oh yeah, Atlantis is, obviously, a word processor found here: http://www.rssol.com/

Thanks for mentioning it acushla. I'm always looking for a good text editor with extra capabilities and a small footprint. I'll check this one out. Google is my friend.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:25 PM

And all of this to Miles in the background...

Too cool brother. Nice choice too.

I just wish my soundcard wasn't screwed up or I'd be listening to music too. Only one channel works on it right now and listening to music that way drives me crazy. I just bought a Hercules Fortissimo (your suggestion) via auction and should recieve it soon. I can't wait!

Roj

04-09-2005, 08:26 PM

Too cool brother. Nice choice too.

I just wish my soundcard wasn't screwed up or I'd be listening to music too. Only one channel works on it right now and listening to music that way drives me crazy. I just bought a Hercules Fortissimo (your suggestion) via auction and should recieve it soon. I can't wait!
The Fortissimo IV?

acushla

04-09-2005, 08:27 PM

A dollar US a song for lossy content is THEFT since that is more than you're paying for the lossless variety, one that the companies would dearly love to lock up with copy protection in the same way that they lock up digital music with DRM filth.

We produce it, we own it and we will decide how you can use it.

The concept of buying an album on CD and again for use on a portable player AND not being able to use it anywhere else is all too real. It's that retroactive abortion known as iTunes and personally, anyone who subsidizes that crap needs their head examined - under a Gamma Knife. A dollar US a song for lossy content is THEFT since that is more than you're paying for the lossless variety,

Well…it’s not theft because they produce it, they own it, and they decide how you can use it.

This comes down to an earlier discussion about SONY and the stereos they make and the guy who buys one because he’s having a party Saturday night, gets it home, hooks it up, listens to something and since he’s getting sound out of both speakers, then the thing is working fine.

Lossy content…lossless content…what’s that? I LOVE my iTUNES they say, the same way our friend likes his Stereo… because he’s getting sound out of both speakers.

A buck a song…THEFT? No way man. I’d have to pay $19.00 to get this one song…I don’t want those other 8…I just SAVED $18.00…now I can buy this song and this song and this song and this song (18 times) and have ALL the songs I like and none of the ones I don’t. I should be thanking them. Man, not complaining. THIS IS MUCH BETTER and I get to carry them all around with me so I can listen to them anytime I want. Bet you couldn't’t do that in 1990…could you?

Now that I think of it…turns out that it is doubly not theft…they could be charging me MORE for the fact that they somehow make it possible for me to carry around 5000 tunes in this little box. They’re great people. And so smart. What will they think of next?

DVDJon and others who smash DRM copy protection are heroes of the digital age. And the majors WILL be taught that lesson.

Hate to be the one to break this to you but his days are over with a capital O. Have you read what goes into copy protection on SACD’s? If you haven’t then you should.

Have a nice day.

Qaz

04-09-2005, 08:34 PM

Well…it’s not theft because they produce it, they own it, and they decide how you can use it.
I've always thought that when you buy something, you become the owner of it.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:34 PM

The Fortissimo IV?

No, my mistake. The Fortissimo III. probably couldn't afford the IV yet, even if I found it. I didn't have to pay much though. Hopefully it is still a good card.

Roj

04-09-2005, 08:39 PM

Well…it’s not theft because they produce it, they own it, and they decide how you can use it.

Um, no. I'M the customer and *I* decide how to use it. I think they need to remember that they're a service industry at the core.

Lossy content…lossless content…what’s that? I LOVE my iTUNES they say, the same way our friend likes his Stereo… because he’s getting sound out of both speakers.

For more money and less quality and restrictive policies on use?

A buck a song…THEFT? No way man. I’d have to pay $19.00 to get this one song…I don’t want those other 8…I just SAVED $18.00…now I can buy this song and this song and this song and this song (18 times) and have ALL the songs I like and none of the ones I don’t. I should be thanking them. Man, not complaining. THIS IS MUCH BETTER and I get to carry them all around with me so I can listen to them anytime I want. Bet you couldn't’t do that in 1990…could you?

Sure I could - I bought 12', er, 12" singles. :) But seriously, the CHANNEL (read: stores) should have moved to that model five years ago. CD burners were prevalent enough by then to do the whole customer chosen music thing. They and the majors just weren't interested because it was far more profitable to rip off people at $19 for one song.

Now that I think of it…turns out that it is doubly not theft…they could be charging me MORE for the fact that they somehow make it possible for me to carry around 5000 tunes in this little box. They’re great people. And so smart. What will they think of next?

They tried to do that by charging the electronics firms a levy for just that privelege. The electronics mavens wouldn't dance.

Hate to be the one to break this to you but his days are over with a capital O. Have you read what goes into copy protection on SACD’s? If you haven’t then you should.

First it has to gain acceptance which takes us back to a previous 5.1 do-si-do. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Then there's always the wildcard:

TAIWAN.

acushla

04-09-2005, 08:42 PM

What's ATLANTIS (no snarky comments about lost continents, please)? And I occasionally do my larger missives in OpenOffice, then paste them to ConTEXT editor to sanitize them of font codes and finally to the board for final copy.

I should be asking YOU what ConText is...but I'll just GOOGLE it and find out for myself.

ATLANTIS is a great little Word Processor and is a very small program (3.88MB). I personally have no use for OpenOffice...but only because I have no use for 95% of what it can do and I did not like the other 5%...which of course is the Word Processor.

As for the UNHoly Trinity...there are other people?

acushla

04-09-2005, 08:44 PM

And all of this to Miles in the background...

And all of this to Zappa in the foreground.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:45 PM

I've always thought that when you buy something, you become the owner of it.

The industry is trying to say that we are only entitled to that one copy of it. They say we don't really own it, we just bought the right to listen to our copy, not produce more. Pure, unadultered, bullsh*t!

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:50 PM

I should be asking YOU what ConText is...but I'll just GOOGLE it and find out for myself.

ATLANTIS is a great little Word Processor and is a very small program (3.88MB). I personally have no use for OpenOffice...but only because I have no use for 95% of what it can do and I did not like the other 5%...which of course is the Word Processor.

As for the Holy Trinity...there are other people?

Unholy! Unholy Trinity! Get it right. How dare you try to put me in that other group!

As for the last, of course not! Only we matter. ;)
The rest just hang on our every word! :cheeky:

acushla

04-09-2005, 08:51 PM

I've always thought that when you buy something, you become the owner of it.

You thought wrong.

Everything except what the entertainment industry produces. You certainly DON'T own it to the extent you can start splicing up 'Apocalypse Now' to show how the Americans won the war in 6 days and Gregory Hines doing a victory dance on a destroyer just before the titles roll.

You own the 'medium' but you do not own the material.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 08:54 PM

And all of this to Zappa in the foreground.

All right, now I hate both of you. I have no music, boo-hoo-hoo.:cry:

Right then, enough of that. Well it's been fun guys, but I must bow out now. Before I'm late meeting my wife for dinner out with friends. I hate to leave, but she will kill me if I'm late!

I'll check back in just before I leave. See ya later!! :cheerful:

Roj

04-09-2005, 08:54 PM

No, my mistake. The Fortissimo III. probably couldn't afford the IV yet, even if I found it. I didn't have to pay much though. Hopefully it is still a good card.
Good inexpensive card - I have three of them here in the kid's machines. Gives you roughly 85-90% of the audio quality of the Santa Cruz, nice definition and good dynamic range. At its price point, it's a very good deal.

Roj

04-09-2005, 08:55 PM

And all of this to Zappa in the foreground.
Little Pink Rosetta?

Roj

04-09-2005, 08:57 PM

Unholy! Unholy Trinity! Get it right. How dare you try to put me in that other group!

As for the last, of course not! Only we matter. ;)
The rest just hang on our every word! :cheeky:

I do SO love this... :) :) :)

acushla

04-09-2005, 09:02 PM

Then there's always the wildcard:TAIWAN.

I think what I'm really saying is that you have a populace who either don't know and if they do know, don't care. That is the segment that drives the industry and people like us are just a thorn in their side.

I bought the 321 Studio's PLATINUM DVD-Burner and was a subscriber to their weekly newsletter. They lost...nothing to do with them being right or wrong...they lost because they literaly ran out of money against an opponent would would NEVER run out of money.

What makes you think it's going to be any different this time...or next time...or the time after that?

Taiwan?...well...a friend of mine just returned from his honeymoon in Bali. He brought back something like 60 DVD movies, no cases. How much you ask?

$1.27 each.

Qaz

04-09-2005, 09:03 PM

Everything except what the entertainment industry produces. You certainly own it to the extent you can start splicing up 'Apocalypse Now' to show how the Americans won the war in 6 days and Gregory Hines doing a victory dance on a destroyer just before the titles roll.
I honestly don't have any idea what this is about? :o

You own the 'medium' but you do not own the material.
So what if the music is only sold on one medium? I should just forget listening it on other mediums?

And in cases it's actually sold on different mediums. Do you really think it's fair that you have to buy the same music twice?

acushla

04-09-2005, 09:08 PM

I honestly don't have any idea what this is about? :o

So what if the music is only sold on one medium? I should just forget listening it on other mediums?

And in cases it's actually sold on different mediums. Do you really think it's fair that you have to buy the same music twice?

Sorry...I would have found that confusing myself. What I meant to type is: 'You certainly DON'T own it to the extent....'.

What the industry is saying is that you do NOT own the music...you only own what you paid for that has the music contained within it. In the case of the CD...you own the CD but NOT the music that is in the CD.

acushla

04-09-2005, 09:15 PM

All right, now I hate both of you. I have no music, boo-hoo-hoo.:cry:

Right then, enough of that. Well it's been fun guys, but I must bow out now. Before I'm late meeting my wife for dinner out with friends. I hate to leave, but she will kill me if I'm late!

I'll check back in just before I leave. See ya later!! :cheerful:

Don't worry, I'll be right here, glued to my monitor, anxiously awaiting your reply.

Personally, given the amount of time you spend in this forum I'm surprised you even know you're married, let alone that your wife is still with you. Does she have a sister?

Roj

04-09-2005, 09:15 PM

I think what I'm really saying is that you have a populace who either don't know and if they do know, don't care. That is the segment that is the segment that drives the industry and people like us are just a thorn in their side.

Agreed - I've had several discussion on CDFreaks regarding that type of apathy.

I bought the 421 Studio's PLATINUM DVD-Burner and was a subscriber to their weekly newsletter. They lost...nothing to do with them being right or wrong...they lost because they literary ran out of money against a opponent would would NEVER run out of money.

I too own it and had their newsletter and watched the train wreck happen. Shameful.

What makes you think it's going to be any different this time...or next time...or the time after that?

because WE in Canada stopped it before and WE can maybe stop it again. There is no DMCA here. there is not Patriot Act here. File sharing IS legal here and maybe WE can keep it that way. The Liberals are on the ropes and won't want to lose votes - the time has never been more opportune and all it will take is ONE precedent as there was with the original ruling and we'll have won.

Again.

Taiwan...well...a friend of mine just returned from his honeymoon in Bali. He brought back something like 60 DVD movies, no cases. How much you ask?

$1.27 each.

Yup.

My concept of fair use:

- No DRM
- No copy protection
- Online music is 50 cents a song
- A store bought CD is $10CDN
- A DVD is $15CDN
- Unlimitied copying for personal use

And you know what? It can happen. The internet alone guarantees it because it's the biggest wildcard and technology thinktank for the everyman that this planet has ever seen. And it's nimble. And it's fast. Add Moore's Law and China / Taiwan to that and it becomes increasingly difficult to see how the entertainment industry could win.

DVD Xcopy Platinum is gone.

There's DVD Shrink and DVD Decrypter - both free.

If copy protection can be imposed, it can be broken.

Mod chips for Playstations and XBoxes.

Software decoders.

There's no point but the idiots still keep trying. And they'll inevitably lose in the end, pouring millions into evry new failed effort.

Hell, even the artists are against them - Radiohead urged people to download their last album and if they liked it, buy it.

Roj

04-09-2005, 09:19 PM

Personally, given the amount of time you spend in this forum I'm surprised you even know you're married, let alone that your wife is still with you. Does she have a sister?
Hmmm, where have I heard THAT before...

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 09:29 PM

Don't worry, I'll be right here, glued to my monitor, anxiously awaiting your reply.

Personally, given the amount of time you spend in this forum I'm surprised you even know you're married, let alone that your wife is still with you. Does she have a sister?

Oh I hear about it from her all right. But usually I'm on the web when she's not home. She still complains about it. When she's home, and awake, I usually spend my time with her. Otherwise our schedules don't allow us much time together. I usually see her for about a couple of hours during the day, just before I go to work at 15:30. Sometimes I'm signed in here, but not at the computer. I usually am though, or returning to it soon.

I agree with Roj, I love this too. I can't talk this way with most of the people I know. They don't care. My friends are all right, but alot of them are Republicans. They definitely don't want to talk politics with me. I get them too worked up. They get even angrier about it because I don't lose my cool and get mad myself. You guys are awesome. Quit blushing now you two!

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 09:36 PM

Hmmm, where have I heard THAT before...

The first part my wife says to me all the time.

I know my wife has heard the second part alot around the guys I know.

acushla

04-09-2005, 09:40 PM

. You guys are awesome. Quit blushing now you two!

You're not gay, are you? Not that here's anything wrong with that.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 09:44 PM

Agreed - I've had several discussion on CDFreaks regarding that type of apathy.

Apathy is the most common thing in our society, unfortunately.

because WE in Canada stopped it before and WE can maybe stop it again.

That's all you can do. Keep fighting against the bastards in any way you can.

My concept of fair use: ....

Mine too brother

There's no point but the idiots still keep trying. And they'll inevitably lose in the end, pouring millions into every new failed effort.

They're too greedy. They won't see the light until an arc lamp is shoved up their noses. This IS one fight they can't win. But they'll keep trying.

Hell, even the artists are against them - Radiohead urged people to download their last album and if they liked it, buy it.

Which is what I said earlier to acushla. Even many of the artists encourage the public to download their music. Many of them understand the value of it and don't like the RIAA any better than we do. Their the ones getting ripped off at the other end.

Shadowraven

04-09-2005, 09:47 PM

You're not gay, are you? Not that here's anything wrong with that.

That IS NOT funny. I'm not offended mind you. But I can assure you with all certainty that I am not. The freinds I have who are gay could assure you of that!

Hopefully you said that tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise, why did you say it? I usually don't find that a humorous statement.

Hopefully I'm not alienating anyone with any statements I've made here. I've been known to do it before unconsciously and would prefer not to do it again.

Sorry guys. Now I've really got to go or else I'm dead meat. Bye!

madjo

04-09-2005, 09:54 PM

Are you crazy? Do you really have to ask? Let’s begin with with ‘Rights…what rights?’ YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS EXCEPT THE RIGHT TO GO INTO A RETAIL OUTLET AND PURCHASE OUR PRODUCT. What makes you think you have rights?
I buy it, therefor it is my property, to do with it for my own pleasure... if it is making a d*mn copy for backup purposes, or wipe my *ss with it...

If this is somehow is not what you thought Democracy was and think you would prefer something else I think you are in the wrong place…Communism and Socialist societies are two blocks down and to the left. Go whine,,er, complain there. They will shake their heads in symphony and understanding and make you a nice cup of tea.
has nothing to do with this thread.. leave it there!

Last time I checked… going into ANY store and walking out with a product without payment is considered theft.
Indeed, but asking boatloads of money for crap products is embazzlement in my eyes! Equally punishable deeds.

Somebody comes to me with a copy of one of my images that they didn’t pay for and talking some nonsense about his ‘rights’…that man is either brave or stupid or both… because he obviously hasn't’t heard of my right to give him a black eye. Rights? What the f*#k are you talking about?
if he genuinely bought that image... it becomes his property... indeed republishing isn't allowed... but still he has rights! d%mnit! if you don't like it. don't publish!

Right now, when you buy a dvd or CD or movie you get treated like a potential criminal, by the large companies.

Not me…I get a smile and have a nice day.
next day you want to make a copy, and Bam! you can't... or you want to play the record on your car-cd-player and it refuses to play. or on your computer or whatever other device you like.. it can't because of the stupid copy protection things on it!

DMCA is NOT the way to solve this... These companies are trying very hard to keep their old ways of distributing their wares, instead of investing into new ones, because the latter costs them also money.
Bah!

This sentence should have been written: These companies are trying very hard to keep their old ways of maintaining their profit margins. They are investing millions into new encryption methods to embed in the product….just read about what’s protecting SACD’s.
And that is exactly why I don't like those big dinosaurs....

Look man... I support the independants... I will not rip from them... but I will not blindly follow the next big company! Read my post again.. and you'll see that!

well okay, I can understand that, for you as an independant artist... but I've underlined the one word you seemed to have read over!...

Once again.. Indeed I download, and I don't want to dumb it down with saying "they screwed me over" or anything, but they do! What percentage of the total profits made of those cds brought forth by those companies combined in the RIAA actually go to the artists? And how much goes to the record labels... I'm almost thinking it looks awful lot like organized crime.

acushla

04-09-2005, 10:06 PM

That IS NOT funny.

That's interesting 'cause I thought it was hilarious! Of course it was 'tongue in cheek'...I'm not even going to touch that line!

OK...no more 'You guys are awesome. Quit blushing now you two!'...it gives everybody the wrong idea! Right Roj?

Just messing with you...it was too good an opportunity to pass up. So I didn't.

Have fun tonight...talk to you then.

Todd The Kiwi

04-09-2005, 11:58 PM

haven't you guys heard of msn? :cheeky:

rorythedog

04-10-2005, 12:00 AM

MSN 7! Nudge nudge, wink, wink. :paranoid:

Willow of Oz

04-10-2005, 01:45 AM

Todd!!
What are you doing on here?? I thought this was an Acushla, Roj, 'Raven thread.

Shadowraven - I take it you don't watch Seinfeld?

With regards to apathy being too prevalent in our society ... true. I used to be apathetic as well, but now I can't be bothered.

It's actually been hugely entertaining. A few cheers http://quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/beer.gif to Acushla for his DA job.

An analogy, if I may, by quoting some guy: "It's not premarital sex if you have no intention of getting married"

acushla

04-10-2005, 02:39 AM

I buy it, therefor it is my property, to do with it for my own pleasure... if it is making a d*mn copy for backup purposes, or wipe my *ss with it...

if he genuinely bought that image... it becomes his property... indeed republishing isn't allowed... but still he has rights! d%mnit! if you don't like it. don't publish!

Right on, brother! That's exactly the spirit we're looking for. Stand up and be counted...I love your style...keep it coming.

PS It IS organized crime.

acushla

04-10-2005, 03:01 AM

IT WAS ALL ROJ'S FAULT...THAT'S WHY HE'S TRYING DESPARATELY TO DRAW OUR ATTENTION AWAY FROM THIS FACT AND MAKE US THINK THERE IS A SOLUTION TO 'WHEN THREADS GO WRONG.' DON'T BE FOOLED BY HIS CRAZY JAZZ IN THE SHOWER THINKING. WANT PROOF? OK...HERE'S THE PROOF:

Anybody who has followed Californian politics will tell you first and foremost that the private Arnold is a very intelligent and astute man, not to be underestimated.

I realize that Arnold is indeed very intelligent and a tremendously shrewd businessman. However, his policy of kissing the ass of the entertainment industry and raping the rights of consumers re: "fair use" and copy protection is VERY offensive.

Might it be because he's an actor and his original power base IS the entertainment industry?

Some backup:

http://www.mofo.com/news/updates/files/update1065.html

...and the utterly moronic SB 1506:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Anonymit...0317_eff_pr.php (http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Anonymity/20040317_eff_pr.php)
http://www.grammy.com/news/artswatc...cdsecurity.aspx (http://www.grammy.com/news/artswatch/2004/0927cdsecurity.aspx)

In short, he ain't the shining knight you're making him out to be and California's growing record in that area is not a good one for consumer rights. I sure hope the rest of the Union doesn't suffer from the heatstroke that California lawmakers obviously do.

YOUR WELCOME!