Surround receivers

[Tokelil]

Seems like all these "What should I buy?" threads are mighty popular atm., so I thought I would make my own. ;)

Im about to return the NAD amp I use atm. so I have to get something else. Im most keen on buying a surround receive, though I dont entend to use the surround part atm. I just wanne make sure I have the option when I get the money for some decent surround speakers.

I haven't follow the market for a few years, so Im not sure which brand to get.

I have looked at:
Cambridge Azur 540R (http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=1&Title=Azur+540R+%96+6.1+AV+Receiver) (which has got some quite good reviews, the price taken into account)
Denon AVR-1905 (http://www.denon.co.uk/site/frames_main.php?main=prod&ver=&MID=3&sub=1&action=detail&Pid=147)
NAD T743v2 (http://www.nadelectronics.com/av_receivers/T743_framset.htm)

Also some others in the same price range. (http://dk.kelkoo.com/ctl/do/drilldown~100282523/prcgen-3200_til_3999_kr_-~pg-1)

Anyone has any advice? :) Atm. Im most keen on the Cambridge (great look, good reviews), but it (and the NAD) is 40% more expensive than the denon, and Im a student... :confused:

[Roj]

Seems like all these "What should I buy?" threads are mighty popular atm., so I thought I would make my own. ;)

Im about to return the NAD amp I use atm. so I have to get something else. Im most keen on buying a surround receive, though I dont entend to use the surround part atm. I just wanne make sure I have the option when I get the money for some decent surround speakers.

I haven't follow the market for a few years, so Im not sure which brand to get.

I have looked at:
Azur 540R (http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=1&Title=Azur+540R+%96+6.1+AV+Receiver) (which has got some quite good reviews, the price taken into account)
Denon AVR-1905 (http://www.denon.co.uk/site/frames_main.php?main=prod&ver=&MID=3&sub=1&action=detail&Pid=147)
NAD T743v2 (http://www.nadelectronics.com/av_receivers/T743_framset.htm)

Also some others in the same price range. (http://dk.kelkoo.com/ctl/do/drilldown~100282523/prcgen-3200_til_3999_kr_-~pg-1)

Anyone has any advice? :) Atm. Im most keen on the Cambridge (great look, good reviews), but it (and the NAD) is 40% more expensive than the denon, and Im a student... :confused:

I've never bought into the cult of Denon and personally think they're overrated.

NAD on thew other hand...

...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm gooooooooooddddd. :)

Cambridge too.

I'm a firm believer in "waiting and saving your pennies until you can get something really excellent" rather than opting for "what you can afford today" and not achieving the best you can do.

[auster]

If you are on stereo for now the cam and NAD are nice! IMO harman kardon is also good but it's better for movies.
and Im a student...
I'm one too and being indian, its even worse. So the sensible path for me was to get a surround soundcard and i DIY'ed the rest (Electronics is a small cottage industry here cos not many people can afford these hts .Plus I'm an electronics student :evolved:)

[acushla]

Anyone has any advice?

I think I hear my name being called!

Advice? Oh yes...we's got PLENTY of that!

This is a very good question. A simple approach is to get hung up on 'names' or... there is a studied and considered response where you actually sit down and do some thinking. Let's look at the later.

Your first job is to determine all the things you want this receiver to do and then talk to people who have had some experience (which is what you are doing) and then weigh up everything and look for a unit that comes closest to filling your needs. Then and only then are names going to become part of the equation.

So, since I do have experience in this area here is what my considerations would be.

7.1 or 5.1? 7.1 will add to the cost, but it may also add to the length of time you hang on to it.

Powered sub woofer channel…or your own powered/passive sub woofer?

Do you really need a FM tuner? Not having one can save you some money.

What decoders would you like to have?

What type of speaker connects would you like to have? I consider this a key determining factor in choosing any amplifier.

I would suggest you MAKE CERTAIN that the unit have a test signal build in by which you can adjust the levels of each of the speakers. This is a feature you will be glad you have time after time after time. If it doesn't have this feature then move on.

Very important to sit down and think about all the various components you will be attaching to the amp…and the method by which you anticipate connecting them…S-Video, Coaxial, Optical Cable…In addition you should give thought to other components you might want to add later. When shopping pay particular attention to the layout of the back panel and try to determine how easy your connections are going to be to make…in other words…be sure there is enough space around everything that by removing one set of cables you aren’t inadvertently removing 3! While we're back there...do a dry run with cables to ensure that everything you need is there.

Think about the wattage per channel you would like to have and then make certain that each channel has the exact same amount of wattage as each of the other channels. Read the specs carefully to see how this figure was arrived at…some companies will use 6 ohm speakers as a reference while others will opt for the more standard 8 ohms.

Does the amplifier have provision for using low impedance speakers?

Is there a fan that will kick in if the amplifier gets to a certain temperature?

Do you like the colour? (Just kidding!)

I’m trying to be thorough here because I know Roj will be adding all the things I’ve missed. Pay particular attention to what He Says…or live with regret for the duration of your long, miserable life. And don't come whining to me later...I TOLD YOU SO!

Where was I? Oh yes...

Consider buying used. Let’s face it…there are some truly insane people who like to think of themselves as Audiophiles who, in order to keep up with the latest ‘must have’ product, end up selling the ‘old’ component they bought last week. If you get a general idea of two or three models that you would be very happy with…and you can afford to be patient and look around a bit…you would be surprised with what you come up with.

Most important...if you can't quite afford the unit you know you would really like...then hold off until you can afford it. What I'm really saying is do not buy a unit you don't really like...you will only regret it later.

Old stock, or last year's model can prove to be a very good buy...as are refurbished units. This may come as a surprise to many of you...but given a choice between a refurbished item and the same item new...I will purchase the refurbished one every time.(Providing the warranty is identical to the new item.) Why...because something has already gone wrong with it and a trained (human) technician has fixed it. To me, this unit is better than new because 99 out of 100 times it is going to perform without any further problems at all.

Ask the dealer what his return policy is...will you get your money returned or will they only give you a instore credit. Get them to write it on the Bill of Sale.

Once you know what you want, ask your girlfriend to put on something tantalizing...give her the money...and tell her to go and buy it...but to negociate the price as only she will know how. Wait...did I say that outloud? Just because that's what I do...don't listen to me. I must say though...I have a GREAT amp.

If I was to give you just one name to consider, then I would suggest you take a long and serious listen to the ONYKO line of surround sound receivers.

Good luck…and make certain you let us know how you are progressing.

I have a funny feeling this is one of those posts that you could edit indefinitely.

[Shadowraven]

Having sold and repaired audio/video equipment I can say that Denon can still be a good choice. Their DVD and CD players are really some of the best consumer units you can get. They build those units like tanks to avoid physical shocks. I have always liked their receivers, which are well built and sound good. A good choice.

Cambridge makes are good product. They sound very good. I don't think you'd go wrong to buy one, although I think that they are overpriced.

Not like Sony is though. I will NEVER buy a Sony. The only product they make that may be worth the price is in their professional line. Everything else is way overpriced for what you get and not the best available. Not listed here, but just giving the warning. I could expand on this subject easily.

Onkyo always made a good product, but from what I've seen, their quality has gone down from what is once was. I think you could do better. I could say the same thing for the Marantz.

NAD makes a very good product, but it is also very pricey.

JVC is a good mass market unit, but I'm not sure it could stand against these others. It is a good choice for a person on a budget. I've always bought them, but I'm not rich.

Avoid Harmon-Kardon. I've had bad experiences with them and they aren't the best soundwise.

Of what you mentioned I would pick the Denon or the Cambridge. I personally lean towards the Denon, alythough Roj doesn't seem to like them.

Other than that I would say follow acushla's advice. It's a good solid guide to buying a unit. I've seen buyer's remorse many a time with people who didn't want to spend the time on it. Most of all I'll say: Do not, Do Not, DO NOT buy any unit you haven't listened to first. It doesn't matter what the reviews say, you really NEED to make SURE that you know how they sound compared to each other. Audio is definitely a personal preference!

[Todd The Kiwi]

make sure you can add cool shit to it later.
and it should look good ;)

if you buy a big boy you can still run little speakers
if you buy a little one you can't run big speakers...
and you need big speakers man:P

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I've heard some bad and good things about 'Bose'. Anyone care to commend? If you have a small space, it may not be such a bad idea to consider a subwoofer, Tokelil.

[Shadowraven]

I've heard some bad and good things about 'Bose'. Anyone care to commend? If you have a small space, it may not be such a bad idea to consider a subwoofer, Tokelil.

Regardless of what anyone says I HIGHLY recommend them. They are very pricey, probably too much so. That said, I think that they make some of the best speakers you can buy for their size. I always loved the way their cubes sounded, but this is a personal preference. You need a sub-woofer with them, but I think that they have a great "live" sound. Not even everyone I know liked them the best, they don't necessarily have the heaviest bass. But IMO you mask the signal if you use too much bass anyway. If you have limited space, or don't want your speakers to stand out too much, I highly suggest them. However, I'd buy them (if I could afford them) regardless of space.

[Todd The Kiwi]

BOSE = quality (at a price)
every BOSE system i've encountered has been very nice.
they've been around for ages too, which says alot.

[acushla]

[QUOTE=Shadowraven]

Not like Sony is though. I will NEVER buy a Sony. The only product they make that may be worth the price is their headphones. Roj can give you a lot more advice on this subject.

I would say follow acushla's advice

ONYKO always made a good product, but from what I've seen, their quality has gone down from what is once was.

I challenge this statement. The truth of the matter is that not only does ONYKO improve its product from one year to the next...the price continues to drop. I have NEVER read an unfavorable review of a ONYKO receiver. They are always acknowledged for the superior components and construction. The sound quality is always held in high esteem. The most important sentence in any review is 'value for the money'. So where, exactly, are you getting your information?

A solid, secure investment it you ask me...and you did!

Other than that . Most of all I'll say: Do not, Do Not, DO NOT buy any unit you haven't listened to first. It doesn't matter what the reviews say, you really NEED to make SURE that you know how they sound compared to each other. Audio is definitely a personal preference!

This is absolutely true...in theory...but unless the owner is going to let you take the unit home and set it up with everything you are going to use it with in the room you are going to use it in...any sound comparisons you do in the store are going to be of extremely limited use...at best.

My thoughts are that within a broad sector of the market the sound of most receivers falls within a perfectly manageable spectrum...meaning you can adjust through tone controls and SFC settings and achieve a sound you will find that will make you happy. Everybody awake now? We suffer from the misconception that there is one 'correct' sound and a million 'wrong' sounds. How about just 'different'. Different does not imply better or worse...it just means different. The sound of any quality receiver you bought would have to be pretty extreme before you could honestly say 'I don't like the way it sounds.' We're talking mid-fi here...NOT Hi-Fi.

Now I WANT you to go out and at least look at(and listen if you're able) to the ONYKO...and form some opinions on this based on your own research and impressions.

Go...go, go go...what are you waiting for...NOW.

We're all waiting.

[Shadowraven]

Admittedly, my infromation on Onkyo is a bit dated. It's been maybe 8 years since I worked on or sold them, so things may have changed. I hope so, they were always good units before.

As for the other point acushla you are right, to a point. For one thing, never go to a store where you can't control the experience. Don't let any salesperson lead you, especially if they are on commission or try to press a particular product. Make sure you control things. Salepeople are sometimes told to push certain units. Even in a non-commission enviroment like Best Buy. I used to be a department manager there.

Stores don't always have the best enviroment for listening to music and the ones that do could vary in the room acoustics. Listening there may not always work. Unfortunately it's hard to do it any other way with speakers. But if comparing them, try to compare against units that you are already familiar with the acoustics of. If comparing stereo components, bring a good pair of headphones to plug into them. That is a good way to get at least a base idea of how they compare.

[acushla]

If comparing stereo components, bring a good pair of SONY* headphones to plug into them. That is a good way to get at least a base idea of how they compare.

I would be extremely interested in what Roj might...I mean...will ...say about this. Personally, Shadowraven (who is no doubt over in Politics and News right now) I would suspect that this would be on a par of doing nothing in terms of anything it's going to tell you about how the unit is going to perform in real life. I might be wrong. I have been wrong. I've been wrong for the third time twice. This time though...

*SONY is my word.

[Toe]

Consider buying used. Let’s face it…there are some truly insane people who like to think of themselves as Audiophiles who, in order to keep up with the latest ‘must have’ product, end up selling the ‘old’ component they bought last week. If you get a general idea of two or three models that you would be very happy with…and you can afford to be patient and look around a bit…you would be surprised with what you come up with.
Personally I've been thinking about hopping on eBay for a while, see what kind of older gear I could pick up for cheap. Like an old quadraphonic Marantz, or a Sony unit from they days when they were worth considering. Maybe even sample a few, if they're cheap enough. Anyone have any suggestions on what I might be able to pick up cheap?

Another question: does anyone make multichanel amps these days that aren't full receivers? IOW no tuner, no AC-3/DTS decoder, just analog in/out, a source selector, and that's about it, but with support for more than two channels? Something in the 'mere mortals' price range, of course.

[Toe]

*SONY is my word.
OK, I suppose I have to ask: what Sony headphones are we talking about here? Pretty much all the ones they sell these days suck, although some of their 80's/early 90's were quite good.

[acushla]

Personally I've been thinking about hopping on eBay for a while, see what kind of older gear I could pick up for cheap. Like an old quadraphonic Marantz, or a Sony unit from they days when they were worth considering. Maybe even sample a few, if they're cheap enough. Anyone have any suggestions on what I might be able to pick up cheap?

Another question: does anyone make multichannel amps these days that aren't full receivers? IOW no tuner, no AC-3/DTS decoder, just analog in/out, a source selector, and that's about it, but with support for more than two channels? Something in the 'mere mortals' price range, of course.

eBay is a candy store of audio equipment...a lot of which is in fine condition. Seems to me that with any reasonably well made piece of gear that hasn't been abused...there's not a whole lot that can go wrong. I've had gear that lasted 4 - 5 times longer than I anticipated...and on eBay a portion of the money you will save can be put toward the cost of bringing the unit into a reputable Stereo Store and having their repair center take care of it for you. Speakers are an especially good bargain on eBay...with a lot of prices that the kids today would describe as 'Sick'.

One audio manufacture that makes a amp/preamp combination is Boston Acoustics...but be warned...they are pricey. This is something I am interested in as well...and I will do some more research in the next couple of days and report back. Perhaps you could do the same. Thanks.

[Shadowraven]

I would be extremely interested in what Roj might...I mean...will ...say about this. Personally, Shadowraven (who is no doubt over in Politics and News right now) I would suspect that this would be on a par of doing nothing in terms of anything it's going to tell you about how the unit is going to perform in real life. I might be wrong. I have been wrong. I've been wrong for the third time twice. This time though...

*SONY is my word.

That may be true, but it is the only test you can make that might be even a fair comparison in the store.

As far as Sony is concerned, if that is your cup of tea, have at it. My experience with their products shows that they are overpriced for the quality, or features, that you get. When dealing with them on repairs, they tend to be arrogant about their product's quality. Their professional stuff is some of the best. They just don't tend to put that same effort in their consumer products. That's not say they are bad, just way overpriced. Their tube TV's still use the same basic technology they did 20 years ago. They've stuck with Betamax forever in their VCR's. That is a superior format, but very proprietary. It is only the standard in broadcast equipment. They tend to stick, and hold on to, their own formats which are compatible with noone elses. The only things I've liked have been their personal portable players and car stereos, which certainly some the best available. I'm not familiar enough with their current crop of headphones to be any judge. OK Roj, attack!

[acushla]

As far as Sony is concerned, if that is your cup of tea, have at it.

Oh no, no, no...you have missed some early exchanges between Roj and myself where SONY became (and still is) a ongoing joke...always related to their headphones.

I will say this though...just because something hasn't changed in 20 years is not reason in and of itself to dismiss that product out of hand. SONY TV's are a proven commodity...they go on forever...and the picture remains constant over all those years...a claim that cannot be made by any other manufacture. Hundreds of millions of people have been well served by them.

Many of the new TV technologies remain any-bodiy's guess as to how they are going to perform 5 - 10 years from now. Not to mention replacement screens...if that's even possible.

I do a lot of photo editing and as a result require a screen that is both sharp and colour stable. After much research and talking to other photographers...and looking at cost value (there are better screens...but not so much better that they were worth twice the price) I settled on a 19 inch SONY...and I am more than pleased with it. It cost more than the SAMSUNG (my TV is a HDTV Wide Screen from SAMSUNG) and most other makes...but there was a noticeable difference in sharpness, detail, and colour contrast. I have always maintained that the most important specs of any product are the specs it has one year down the road. Many products start out the same...many products have deteriorated rapidly in the first six months. In the end it always comes down to the same thing. Defining needs and the three r's. Research, research and research.

[Shadowraven]

I agree with what you said mostly. Stability is good and things don't have to change to be good, but there should be some advances in the technology. they tend to stand on their laurels as the standard. I just don't feel that they are. That is unless you are discussing professional equipment, then they are.

My thing was just a bad taste they left in my mouth when working on their products. They weren't always the most delightful company to deal with then. BTW, Panasonic has usually been able to give them a good run for their money, and at a better price. Then there's Toshiba and Mitsubishi, both good products. As far as Samsung is concerned, they make a good product at their price point and what you get for it.

BTW acushla, I agree with what you said earlier about refurbished products. Sometimes they are better than new, because they have been tested by a technician for problems or defects. The bugs were removed so to speak.

[acushla]

[QUOTE=Shadowraven]IQUOTE] I've always felt TECHNIC's to be a well made product. I believe TECHNIC'S is the flagship line of PANASONIC. I have always been impressed by the high standards exhibited by this line.

All of this brings up the question of...within the acceptable boundaries of good to better products...even if one was to purchase on the good side...how bad is it really going to be? In other words...technology has reached a point (I'm keeping this within the confines of mid-fi audio) that whatever you choose...it's going to do a very satisfactory job.

The most amazing example of this is the new PIONEER DVD-PLAYER DV-578A. It is in a class all its own. One wonders if perhaps this represents the beginning to a new attitude by Corporations to produce an exceptional product at a more than fair price. 'What we lose on the individual units we make up on the volume.'

[Shadowraven]

[QUOTE=Shadowraven]IQUOTE] I've always felt TECHNIC's to be a well made product. I believe TECHNIC'S is the flagship line of PANASONIC. I have always been impressed by the high standards exhibited by this line.

All of this brings up the question of...within the acceptable boundaries of good to better products...even if one was to purchase on the good side...how bad is it really going to be? In other words...technology has reached a point (I'm keeping this within the confines of mid-fi audio) that whatever you choose...it's going to do a very satisfactory job.

The most amazing example of this is the new PIONEER DVD-PLAYER DV-578A. It is in a class all its own. One wonders if perhaps this represents the beginning to a new attitude by Corporations to produce an exceptional product at a more than fair price. 'What we lose on the individual units we make up on the volume.'

Some people may disagree with this, but my experience is that Pioneer has made pretty good mass market consumer products for quite awhile. I always liked them and JVC. I'll have to take another look at Onkyo. I like Denon more than any of those, but I can't afford their products. (Sigh) Such is life.

[Shadowraven]

acushla, tried to pm you, but your inbox is full.

Time for me to go to bed, got to work tomorrow!

[acushla]

[QUOTE=acushla]Some people may disagree with this, but my experience is that Pioneer has made pretty good mass market consumer products for quite awhile. I always liked them and JVC. I'll have to take another look at ONYKO. I like Denon more than any of those, but I can't afford their products. (Sigh) Such is life.

I'm beginning to wonder if Tokelil is beginning to regret he ever asked!

Knowing I can edit this part out later...I am bidding you goodnight/morning Shadowraven. It's been a slice. Can't wait for Roj to get up! Or Todd The Kiwi. I just hope I don't see either name at the bottom where it says whose on line...before I sign off!

[Tokelil]

I'm beginning to wonder if Tokelil is beginning to regret he ever asked!Certainly not. I'll have to read it again though (Im a bit in hurry right now) before going any futher with it.

Thx all for the comments! :)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Now that we are discussing audio systems. I have two medium sized 3-way AKAI speakers with a Sansui intergrated amplifier. The latter is quite old but excellent IMO. Speakers are good too. It comes with an stereo radio reciever with analogue display (ie you have to turn the wheel to find the right station). It does also support cable radio of course.

You guys familiar with 'high filter' and 'loudness'? i have them both 'in' instead of 'out' to generate better sound, but what does it really do?

[Tokelil]

I've never bought into the cult of Denon and personally think they're overrated.

NAD on thew other hand...

...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm gooooooooooddddd.

Cambridge too.NAD is held in high regard in hifi circles here in Denmark. Some of is probably because "Hifiklubben" (The hifi club, which is a hifi equipment store) bought a good part of the stocks when they had finasial trouble some years ago. That said they do make nice equipment, but while looks of hifi equipment isn't the first priority, it does matter. And the NAD line cant compete with for example the Cambridge. (IMO)

I'm a firm believer in "waiting and saving your pennies until you can get something really excellent" rather than opting for "what you can afford today" and not achieving the best you can do.Well the problem is that I doesn't have a dream receiver. I read a bit about hifi 5+ years ago, but haven't since, so I dont know what to look after.
I dont mind waiting 1-2 month extra to get the money for a better receiver, but it has to offer something for the money.
The Cambridge and the NAD reseivers I linked both have pre-out, so at least if it is more power I need in the future (power isn't a priority atm.) I can buy some good preamps.

A simple approach is to get hung up on 'names'...I couldn't care less who makes the receiver. (okay, wouldn't mind NAD becuase it is Danish... ;)) Sound, options and to a small degree looks is what matters...

I really dont have that many requerements exept good sound and that it has to last for probably many years...
FM tuner is a nice +, but not a requerement. It looks like most has it though.
As said above preamp outputs for all channels is a big + in my book... At least support for preamp on the 2 front stereo speakers (+sub) would be really good IMO.
Im not planning on adding a lot of extra equipment to it. Im going to buy a DVD/CD player for it at some point, but most of the time I'll be playing from my computer. I like to keep my options open as much as possible though.

Consider buying used...This is not the first time I have heard this advice regarding mid-end -> high-end audio equipment. And I have looked at leading auction site here in DK, but nothing was what I was looking for. :( I might try some of the more audiophile forums/sites though...

About ONYKO, I cant find any resellers in DK atm. I'll keep it in mind though.

Cambridge makes are good product. They sound very good. I don't think you'd go wrong to buy one, although I think that they are overpriced.The reviews I have read about the Azur 540R says it on many fronts are as good as reveivers 30-100% more expensive than it. So at least for that model it might not be that way.

Most of all I'll say: Do not, Do Not, DO NOT buy any unit you haven't listened to first.The good thing about the 3 I listed is that they are all sold by "Hifiklubben", so I can listen to them in the same store. Normally they dont mind moving them around either so you can hear them on the same speakers etc.

I've heard some bad and good things about 'Bose'. Anyone care to commend? If you have a small space, it may not be such a bad idea to consider a subwoofer, Tokelil.Speakers are not part of the budget atm. That'll have to wait to I get some money again... I see this as an ongoing project, because I'll never get the money to buy it all at once. The speakers I have isn't that bad (Bose actually) though they do need replacement when I get a good amp. (Im going to buy some decent cables though... The ones I use atm. is pure crap!)

[acushla]

I've heard some bad and good things about 'Bose'. Anyone care to commend?

Hmmm...let's see...who might have something to say about BOSE? I know there's SOMEBODY...I just...oh...the name is on the tip of my tongue...well...I'm quite certain we will be hearing from him before the day is done.

I was going to say: 'Are you bored, Rex?' but figured I shouldn't as it might be misunderstood. Oh well...won't be misunderstood for too long. (I like you Rex...this is NOT a dis...you'll see...and laugh.)

Do you know the name of the person I'm searching for? Can you guess?

[acushla]

Regardless of what anyone says I HIGHLY recommend them. They are very pricey, probably too much so. That said, I think that they make some of the best speakers you can buy for their size.

Oh oh...my world just went black. I could have sworn that I just heard Shadowraven say BOSE 'make some of the best speakers you can buy for their size.' In which case either I am insane or I haven't woken up yet.

Too bad really...I used to like Shadowraven. If only he had kept to discussing ideas and life and our role in it...instead of things he knows nothing about. (All right...if it makes you feel better...if you really don't know...here it comes...hahaha.) There!...although I doubt Roj is going to be quite so generous.

[Tokelil]

I have been following Bose discussion in Beyond3Ds forum before and to say people af split is an understatement. Either you like them or you dont. One of the engineers working at Bose was even posting there AFAIK and he said the sound was by design...

Btw. found a user review of the NAD receiver and it sounds promising.
http://www.audioreview.com/amplification/a-v-receivers/NAD/PRD_321110_2718crx.aspx#reviews

[acushla]

I have been following Bose discussion in Beyond3Ds forum before and to say people af split is an understatement. Either you like them or you dont. One of the engineers working at Bose was even posting there AFAIK and he said the sound was by design...

Btw. found a user review of the NAD receiver and it sounds promising.
http://www.audioreview.com/amplification/a-v-receivers/NAD/PRD_321110_2718crx.aspx#reviews

Here's something I would suggest you do. Find a dealer who has a show room which has a pair of Martin Logan Electrostatic speakers set up. Take some music you know well...sit and... LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN.

Now you have a reference point of what true good sound is...which will help you when auditioning other speakers.

Most people do not have a clue of what good sound is and as a result end up with brands like BOSE. Trust me on this. Do it...then tell me I was correct.

[Tokelil]

I haven't said anything about Bose's sound quality compared with anything. :cyclops: They might be good, they might be bad... I dont know. The speakers i have is mid-end at best, but they play good IMO compared to other speakers in the same price range. Anyway, they are going to replased for some bigger ones within a year regardless of brand. ;)

Good speakers IMO is speakers that give me the same sansation as when playing yourself. (Have played guitar for a lot of years, though I dont play in a band anymore :() The sound has to be alive... What theoreticly is the perfect speaker, might not be it in real world work for my ears. But as you said... you have to listen and make up your own mind. :)

[Roj]

I haven't said anything about Bose's sound quality compared with anything. :cyclops:

OK, I will:

AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH HHHHH!!!!!!!!

Bose couldn't get a clue about building quality linear audio speakers if they put on the clue mating costume, sprayed themselves with clue musk and did the clue mating dance while bellowing the clue love call in the middle of a field of horny clues at the height of clue mating season.

That's the polite version.

[acushla]

I haven't said anything about Bose's sound quality compared with anything. :cyclops: They might be good, they might be bad... I dont know. The speakers i have is mid-end at best, but they play good IMO compared to other speakers in the same price range. Anyway, they are going to replased for some bigger ones within a year regardless of brand. ;)

Good speakers IMO is speakers that give me the same sansation as when playing yourself. (Have played guitar for a lot of years, though I dont play in a band anymore :() The sound has to be alive... What theoreticly is the perfect speaker, might not be it in real world work for my ears. But as you said... you have to listen and make up your own mind. :)

You have more experience with sound than I knew. Knowing something about it helps you to determine what speakers will work for you.

However...I do stand by my original statement that the majority of people have no idea what 'good' sound is...and therefore are sold mediocrity when a little bit of time and effort would have afforded them something of quality for the same amount of money. Either that or they will give up the entire notion of owning a sound system because everything sounds like s%*t now except for the Martin Logan's which they cannot afford...not to mention the front end which has to go with them.

My solution came in the form of a bank robbery. Not as difficult as most people would have you believe.

On second thought...forget what I said in my first thought. Go listen to some BOSE speakers. (Oh yes...in case you are unfamiliar with my particular sense of humour... hahaha) Now you know.

I can't wait to hear what you ended up with in terms of your receiver. And why is it that I'm reading all these posts from you. Don't you have an important assignment that is due in by Monday?

ONYKO...ONYKO...ONYKO...ONYKO...ONYKO...ONYKO...ON YKO...ONYKO...ONYKO

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Do you know the name of the person I'm searching for? Can you guess?

Why are you so cryptic? I havent got a clue what you are talking about.

Anyway, my opinion about Bose is this: My parents have four satellites and a subwoofer of Bose and the sound is excellent, mind you. I just hear from time to time others saying that they think the sound produced doesnt live up to the cost of the equipment.

[acushla]

Why are you so cryptic?

Why? Well...in this case it's because I'm just having some fun. Many readers know that Roj has very passionate views about BOSE speakers...he has been quoted as saying 'BOSE...don't get me started.'

Since he's going to come in on the tail end of all this, I for one, am eagerly anticipating his scathing retort to what he knows to be all the misguided and just pure out and out 'wrongness' of it all.

Personally it makes me laugh with pleasure. Fun is the one thing I try to have the most of in this forum...but never at the expense of others.

I trust that explanation was not 'cryptic.

I thought you knew.

[Roj]

However...I do stand by my original statement that the majority of people have no idea what 'good' sound is...and therefore are sold mediocrity when a little bit of time and effort would have afforded them something of quality for the same amount of money. Either that or they will give up the entire notion of owning a sound system because everything sounds like s%*t now except for the Martin Logan's which they cannot afford...not to mention the front end which has to go with them.

LOL!

Well, there's always:

Dahlquist
Energy
Dynaudio
B&W

All of those sound nice with varying degress of green required.

I personally love Dahlquist for price / performance.

[Roj]

Since he's going to come in on the tail end of all this, I for one, am eagerly anticipating his scathing retort to what he knows to be all the misguided and just pure out and out 'wrongness' of it all.

I trust I rose to the occasion in typical Roj fashion... :) :) :)

[acushla]

OK, I will:

AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH HHHHH!!!!!!!!

Bose couldn't get a clue about building quality linear audio speakers if they put on the clue mating costume, sprayed themselves with clue musk and did the clue mating dance while bellowing the clue love call in the middle of a field of horny clues at the height of clue mating season.

That's the polite version.

OK...so...let's see it I understand exactly what your trying to say here. If I read it (several times) I think what your saying...the message you are trying to convey...and I might be wrong...but I think what your getting at is that BOSE suck.

Did I get it right?

This I cannot resist: Hey Rex...I told you so! :ponder:

[acushla]

I trust I rose to the occasion in typical Roj fashion... :) :) :)

Oh yeah...you didn't disappoint. Made my day worth living...and we're only half way through.

What else don't you like?

[Roj]

[QUOTE=acushlaDid I get it right?[/QUOTE]

No.

The message is that they REALLY suck. :) :) :)

[Roj]

Oh yeah...you didn't disappoint. Made my day worth living...and were only half way through.

What else don't you like?

Overpriced audio cables with molecular capabilities that defy the Laws of Physics.

Overpriced transports that no one could possibly hear differences between.

Audiophiles - specifically those who can't describe what they hear in terms of differences between components and only say that things are somehow "better".

Audio salespeople - one step removed from car salespeople.

[Shadowraven]

Overpriced audio cables with molecular capabilities that defy the Laws of Physics.

Overpriced transports that no one could possibly hear differences between.

Audiophiles - specifically those who can't describe what they hear in terms of differences between components and only say that things are somehow "better".

Audio salespeople - one step removed from car salespeople.

OK Roj that last comment I found offensive.:(

I used to manage the Audio Department at the local Best Buy ad I for one strongly encouraged the people working for me to tell the truth. I wanted them to sell what they were passionate about, but was still giving people what they wanted. Don't lump everyone into one category ude to some experiences you may have had. I agree that many commissioned salespeople may be a problem, that's why they never controlled my shopping habits.

As for Bose I totally agree that they are ovepriced. I don't agree that they suck. I've sold and/or repaired (in the past) many of these products we're discussing here, I've had time to spend on comparing their sound. I'm not a complete idiot or neophyte here.

I found Cambridge very good, but found their sound a litttle muffled. I liked the Bose because I thought they sounded better. Don't try to tell me that I know nothing of what I speak. Audio IS a personal preference. Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean it sucks for everyone. Bose has also received very good reviews from audio experts. I've noticed that Bose is either something people love or hate with no middle ground.

[acushla]

Overpriced audio cables with molecular capabilities that defy the Laws of Physics.

Overpriced transports that no one could possibly hear differences between.

Audiophiles - specifically those who can't describe what they hear in terms of differences between components and only say that things are somehow "better".

Audio salespeople - one step removed from car salespeople.

Overpriced audio cables with molecular capabilities that defy the Laws of Physics.

Well...that's interesting...my post got lost between the 'Submit Reply' and its inclusion in the thread!

So...again...quick story. I at one time owned a complete Meitner system including the large Planar Speakers. I happened to have a good Friend who worked in one of the better Audio Stores here in Toronto (Brack's) and one Sunday he joined myself and some friends...having brought with him about 12 sets or high end speaker cables. Together we spent the better part of an afternoon listening to various pairs. After the third or fourth pair I was beginning to lose interest. The differences were barely noticeable. And then something extraordinary happened. Suddenly the room was transformed with the beauty music. Everything just came to life and focused and blah, blah, blah. What was it? What had made this happen? One word.

CARDAS.

Audio salespeople - one step removed from car salespeople.

This is harsh Roj. There are many excellent audio sales people...and just as you shop for a good Doctor, Dentist, wardrobe consultant, financial advisor...so too do you search for a good Audio salesman.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you've met a few yourself. Oh...wait a minute...oh yeah...that's right. I forgot. You live in Kanata

[Tokelil]

And why is it that I'm reading all these posts from you. Don't you have an important assignment that is due in by Monday?Me? No... Im moving this weekend though. (Which is connected to why Im loosing "my" NAD amp actually)
Funny enough though, the times where I have to schoolwork I'll probably post the most on the forums... ;)

[Roj]

I used to manage the Audio Department at the local Best Buy ad I for one strongly encouraged the people working for me to tell the truth. I wanted them to sell what they were passionate about, but was still giving people what they wanted. Don't lump everyone into one category ude to some experiences you may have had. I agree that many commissioned salespeople may be a problem, that's why they never controlled my shopping habits.

Gawd - you should manage the one in this town. You'd *definitely* make an improvement.

I have encountered a few decent audio salespeople - they are mostly in the higher-end audio shops. Unfortunately I've encountered far more of the other variety, mostly in consumer audio shops *like* Best Buy and Future Shop.


I found Cambridge very good, but found their sound a litttle muffled. I liked the Bose because I thought they sounded better. Don't try to tell me that I know nothing of what I speak. Audio IS a personal preference. Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean it sucks for everyone. Bose has also received very good reviews from audio experts. I've noticed that Bose is either something people love or hate with no middle ground.

I agree with the Cambridge evaluation. I don't like Bose because they produce what I can only describe as "pretty" sound. I listen to Energy, Dynaudio, Dahlquist and of course M-L and I get clean linear sound with nothing out of place and little colored or emphasized. They're all variations on the same theme. I listen to Bose and I get lovely sound - it's just not what's on the CD. That's why the word "linear" is in my diatribe.

With all due respect, I tend to eschew most reviews and reviewers. Too many good reviews are bought. My first ever experience with Bose was a set of 901s that my cousin bought and hooked to a pair of Phase Linear power amps and a PL preamp. I took one listen (I was 17) and in typical Roj fashion asked "how much did you pay for this mushy sounding crap?". Interestingly enough, in a relatively short space of time the 901s disappeared to be replaced with a set of Infinity Quantum Line Source floorstanding beasties. Those were around for much longer (more than the two months their predecessors lasted). Over the years, I've had the "opportunity" to listen to the line as it evolved. My impression has remained "too much money for far too little and the sound ain't ever linear".

The $300 Bose 2.1 PC speakers are just plain crap. Those don't even sound good; they're horribly tinny, harsh, have anaemic raspy bass and in general sound worse than a $50 pair of Labtecs.

Basically I find the entire marque a ripoff.

YMMV. :)

[acushla]

Me? No... Im moving this weekend though. (Which is connected to why Im loosing "my" NAD amp actually)
Funny enough though, the times where I have to schoolwork I'll probably post the most on the forums... ;)

2nd reply I've lost...what's going on?

Im moving this weekend though. (Which is connected to why Im loosing "my" NAD amp actually)

I'm very sorry to hear she threw you out. Don't dispair though...right around the time you begin to realize that you can live quite well on your own...another one will come along to break your heart all over again. It's what they do best. You'll start looking at that section in your local music store labeled 'BLUES' in a whole new light.

Funny enough though, the times where I have to schoolwork I'll probably post the most on the forums...

Which will go a long way in explaining that the next time we see you when you're 40 you'll be asking us if we want fries with that. :evil:

[Shadowraven]

At the low end of Bose I see what you are saying, I quite like the high end though. As for those others, I haven't had the opportunity to do any personal comparisons, so I can't intelligently comment on them. If they are high end products, I probably never will get the chance to either, but I still stand by what I said. The Bose sound better to me than many others I've heard, but are way overpriced.

Sorry guys I've got to go now, off to work!

[acushla]

I have encountered a few decent audio salespeople - they are mostly in the higher-end audio shops. Unfortunately I've encountered far more of the other variety, mostly in consumer audio shops *like* Best Buy and Future Shop.YMMV. :)

Let me guess: Your Money My View.

I'm going to share a little secret that has been 100% successful for me for at least 6 years now. What's more...it is a secret that I came up with...and if you send just $24.95 I will...I'm sorry...got carried away there.

But I do have a secret I will share. Whenever I am shopping and find myself in a store where there might be different levels of knowledge among the sales staff I simply look around, do some 'profiling'...go up to that person and (if I am in a Best Buy or Future Shop for example) ask him/her who knows the most about sound boards. If it isn't the person you're talking too, he'll look around the store, spot the person you need and tell you to talk to Bob who is with customers right now. It is amazing to me just how often the person you need to talk to is busy with somebody else while the majority of the staff are standing around fiddling their thumbs...if there thumb isn't already engaged elsewhere.

Well, that's not a secret you say. That's just common sense. But wait. There's more. That's just 1/2 the secret.

When Bob is finally free to give you his undivided attention you can begin by telling him what you are looking for...throw a couple of names at him so he knows you've done some research on your own and therefore know at least something about the subject. Bob will rattle off some of what he considers to be really good buys, what's to like about this...as opposed to that...and these are all essentially in the same category etc. etc. etc. When you intuitively feel he has covered most of what he has to offer...you lean into him, look him in the eye...and ask him which one would he get for his significant other (this is Toronto) or his mother.

Magic happens. You have accomplished something that no other person has done all day...you've stunned him. You have disoriented him. You have taken him out of his routine. You have created something unique. He has NEVER been asked that in all the time he has been a salesperson...you have in effect woken him up. You've brought into the moment two people he has the greatest affection for. He feels good. He is smiling. Most of all he is smiling at you because you are no longer just another face. A momentary bond has been created. You have both revealed your humanness.

What's more...he WILL tell you which one he would sell his mother and you can rest assured that that is the one you want.

I can give you numerous examples of where this has never failed. The best though was when I was flying to Cuba and I asked the woman at the counter who was checking me in to give me the seat she would give to her mother. I ended up sitting in First Class!

Don't believe me? Try it.

[Roj]

Let me guess: Your Money My View.

You got me - I don't understand the above. :)

As to your little secret, mine is even simpler and more low maintenance in terms of store interraction (but much more dry):

Do overwhelming research and know exactly what you're looking for before you go shopping and only ask for help if you want a demo of a specific product.

I *never* ask for help in computer and electronics stores, mostly because I usually know far more than the sales staff. While that isn't necessarily the case in audio stores, I always have a VERY good idea of what I want so that when I get there it's mostly a matter of asking for a demo to confirm it.

I've used that strategy to telling effect for essentially a couple of decades.

Can you tell I'm not a window shopper or an impulse buyer?

I must admit though that your approach has FAR more entertainment value. :) :) :)

One day it would be fun to accompany you shopping. :)

[madjo]

Bose couldn't get a clue about building quality linear audio speakers if they put on the clue mating costume, sprayed themselves with clue musk and did the clue mating dance while bellowing the clue love call in the middle of a field of horny clues at the height of clue mating season.was considering to add this one to my sig... but it is slightly too large for my taste ;)

[Roj]

was considering to add this one to my sig... but it is slightly too large for my taste ;)LOL!!!

[Qaz]

You got me - I don't understand the above. :)
Just a guess, but here we go... If Boses sound better than rivals to Shadowraven, then why shouldn't he get those (not that he wasn't getting anything atm). He's after all the one whose spending the money - not you. Thus it's his view that matters - not yours.

[Roj]

Just a guess, but here we go... If Boses sound better than rivals to Shadowraven, then why shouldn't he get those (not that he wasn't getting anything atm). He's after all the one whose spending the money - not you. Thus it's his view that matters - not yours.
Hey, the one thing I've always said is go listen for yourself. It's your ears, not mine. :) I even put that in print in one of the articles I've written.

[acushla]

You got me - I don't understand the above. :)

At the end of a reply to Shadowraven you write:

The $300 Bose 2.1 PC speakers are just plain crap. Those don't even sound good; they're horribly tinny, harsh, have anaemic raspy bass and in general sound worse than a $50 pair of Labtecs.

Basically I find the entire marque a ripoff.

YMMV. :)

(Figured I might as well post your conclusion one more time...just in case somebody missed it the first time.) (hahaha).

So...if YMMV doesn't mean YOUR MONEY MY VIEW...what does it mean?

[Roj]

At the end of a reply to Shadowraven you write:

The $300 Bose 2.1 PC speakers are just plain crap. Those don't even sound good; they're horribly tinny, harsh, have anaemic raspy bass and in general sound worse than a $50 pair of Labtecs.

Basically I find the entire marque a ripoff.

YMMV. :)

(Figured I might as well post your conclusion one more time...just in case somebody missed it the first time.) (hahaha).

So...if YMMV doesn't mean YOUR MONEY MY VIEW...what does it mean?

Your Mileage May Vary.

And go listen to those overpriced Bose abominations known as PC speakers - my WIFE (who has a pair of Monsoon Planar Media 9s and a Santa Cruz on her system) heard them in CompuSmart and said "who makes this crap? they sound AWFUL!!". I almost choked with laughter.

[acushla]

Your Mileage May Vary.

And go listen to those Bose abominations - my WIFE (who has a pair of Monsoon Planar Media 9s and a Santa Cruz on her system) heard them in CompuSmart and said "who makes this crap? they sound AWFUL!!". I almost choked with laughter.

I like my interpretation better.

[acushla]

One day it would be fun to accompany you shopping. :)

Do overwhelming research and know exactly what you're looking for before you go shopping and only ask for help if you want a demo of a specific product.

This sounds uncomfortably too much like work to me.

Admittedly, each situation is different...and for myself I suppose the more important the purchase the more research I do. However (that's a sophisticated BUT...) the fact still remains that I am not as close to these things as the people I am asking. The key is to ask the right people. I say this because I live, breathe and work in Photography. As a result I learn things that are too detailed or esoteric for the average consumer, yet can make a significant difference in the long run. My knowledgeable (how about this for profiling...Chinese) salesman took a full 15 minutes to point out exactly why he was suggesting a printer other than the one I had researched. Things I would have only learned had I taken a University course in Printers 101.

The truth is we are bombarded with choices that evolve every week. For a lot of things it is just too time consuming to spend hours pouring over reviews and stats only to discover when we are ready to buy that our conclusions are wrong for reasons we never imagined to ask.

No...I'm willing to let others do the work...and then explain it to me. Since I like to think of myself as outside this category I seek the knowledge of somebody whose life/job is to know those details and interactions that reviews and research are not going to address. I don't expect somebody to come in and tell me my job...why should I think I know better than somebody whose livelihood depends upon his knowing. Again...the key is to ask the right person. Besides...if it proves to not be what I wanted, needed or expected...I have 30 days to take it back and get a full refund.

I *never* ask for help in computer and electronics stores, mostly because I usually know far more than the sales staff. While that isn't necessarily the case in audio stores, I always have a VERY good idea of what I want so that when I get there it's mostly a matter of asking for a demo to confirm it.

Well...I don't doubt that...and perhaps the fact you live in farm country you need to do the work.

I on the other hand...life in a modern, cosmopolitan, world class city that features both Opera and Ballet...and disposable income that borders on the obscene. As a result there are any number of high, high end audio outlets which amounts to a gold mine of information.

Think about it...I don't care how much research you do reviewing speakers...it is a waste of time as I have recently found out. You would NEVER choose a speaker based on reviews. You would purchase it after listening to it...and in Toronto you can spend days going around an listening to virtually every high end speaker and component known...

You might have a lot of fun and find it very satisfactory to do the research...but I wouldn't march into a store and put my money down before talking to some people who have had direct experience with whatever it is I choose.

Can you tell I'm not a window shopper or an impulse buyer?

Oh yeah...I am a window viewer (I regard some of them to be a version of a modern museum...stores and products like GUCCI, YVES ST. LAURENT, PRADA...which amount to the Porsche's and Lexus in their respective field. The living embodiment of quality. Would I spend $1000.00 on an Ostrich Belt. Nope...but that has nothing to do with my admiration of the creativity and sheer beauty of the item. A $45,000 fountain pen...not a chance...but it was absolutely exquisite. If I was going to spend $45,000 on a fountain pen that's the one I would buy! I am able to appreciate the workmanship and creativity that goes into the creation of a lot of products and feel good about a world that can produce such items without any judgment about the justification of those items. That's a separate story.

Impulse buyer? Only when I'm in a record store

[rorythedog]

Seems like all these "What should I buy?" threads are mighty popular atm., so I thought I would make my own. ;)

Im about to return the NAD amp I use atm. so I have to get something else. Im most keen on buying a surround receive, though I dont entend to use the surround part atm. I just wanne make sure I have the option when I get the money for some decent surround speakers.

I haven't follow the market for a few years, so Im not sure which brand to get.

I have looked at:
Azur 540R (http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=1&Title=Azur+540R+%96+6.1+AV+Receiver) (which has got some quite good reviews, the price taken into account)
Denon AVR-1905 (http://www.denon.co.uk/site/frames_main.php?main=prod&ver=&MID=3&sub=1&action=detail&Pid=147)
NAD T743v2 (http://www.nadelectronics.com/av_receivers/T743_framset.htm)

Also some others in the same price range. (http://dk.kelkoo.com/ctl/do/drilldown~100282523/prcgen-3200_til_3999_kr_-~pg-1)

Anyone has any advice? :) Atm. Im most keen on the Cambridge (great look, good reviews), but it (and the NAD) is 40% more expensive than the denon, and Im a student... :confused:


Let's get back on track.

You're looking for an AV amp for 500euros or less.

You want it to sound good, look good, be reliable and be relatively future proof. Not a lot to ask eh?

You say you have a NAD amp at the moment, are you happy with it? Does it sound good to you? NAD have maintained a distinctive "sound" for as long as I can remember. They were always notable for being pretty obvious in blind listening tests. This applied throughout their range too. As you paid more money, you got more sound. More NAD sound. So if you like the sound of the amp you have currently, then I see no reason to not stick with them.

As for the others, well, it's been a long time since I had any dealings with any of them. I did own 5 different Denon CD players. Not through loyalty, but because they kept breaking down. They did sound great though.

I wouldn't touch Cambridge with a bargepole. Have a look inside one. It's like an explosion in Radio Shack. This matters.

Onkyo I don't know much about. They've never really penetrated the UK market. They've tried though, in the Eighties, with disastrous results. The shop I worked in became their main Scottish agent. And as far as I remember it wasn't a happy relationship. They do sound good however, or at least as far as I can tell from a couple of hours of surfing.

Again, you'll have to excuse my ignorance here but, what are you going to be using it for? It seems, just as with a DVD players complete inability to play a CD well, that AV amps are either good at movie sound reproduction or good at Stereo. Rarely are they good at both. Some are, but not many. The NAD seems to be one of better ones.

Another thing to watch out for is the fact that some audio equipment comes in different versions, tweaked for different markets. I once was invited by the Pioneer rep to a demo of their new integrated amp at a posh Edinburgh hotel. They had a blind listening suite and two amps. One was a RoW model and the other was a tweakedmodel for the UK. Honestly, it was night and day. The UK model was far richer. The A400 went on to be the bestseller in the UK for 4 years. No mean achievement for a Japanese manufacturer. And Japanese manufacturers have been doing this ever since.

You're in Danmark, which is not a problem. The Uk version went on to become the generic European model. Anyway, the point is to make sure you know what you're getting. In the UK it's very common to see far eastern models on the shelves of bulk discounters. So be careful.

Personally, I'm not that big on surround. It's sometimes good on movies, but if it isn't there, I don't miss it. I completely fail to see the point for audio.

Besides, as important as the sound is, it's the music that counts.

I'm well out of touch with the modern hi-fi industry so i think the best thing to do is to provide you with a few links to people and places who's opinions I've trusted in the past.

WHAT HI-FI (http://www.whathifi.com/)

STEREOPHILE (http://www.stereophile.com/)

RUSS ANDREWS (http://www.russandrews.com/)

HI-FI CORNER (http://www.hificorner.co.uk/)

GLASGOW AUDIO (http://www.glasgowaudio.com/)

LOUD & CLEAR (http://www.loud-clear.co.uk/)

I'd go for the NAD personally. More because it will sound great in 2-channel, or STEREO.

5 things to remember :-

1. go to a shop and listen to it. Even if you don't intend to buy at said shop because you've seen it cheaper mail-order.

2. take your favourite music with you. Don't listen to what they suggest.

3. only listen to the amp when partnered with the type of equipment you'll be using. There is absolutely no merit in listening to it hooked up to Martin-Logan loudspeakers. In actual fact, it will probably sound better with a nice pair of small, efficient Missions anyway.

4. this is a difficult one, but try to listen to any prospective hi-fi purchase in a room similar in dimennsions to your own. You'd be surprised how important that is.

5. take note of the cables being used to hook it all up. Speaker cables in particular can make a big difference to the character of the sound.

There's a 6th point too. Be in a good mood when you go to the shop. It can make the world of difference.

Good luck in your quest.

Stay cool.

[acushla]

Let's get back on track.

Why? He has so much information as it stands that, if he puts it all to good use, we may all be going out and buying whatever it is he buys.

Your advise was thought out...and given all you said it occurred to me that he might be able to go one better. If he can arrange for a home audition...say over a weekend...or purchase from a store where it can be returned for a full refund within 30 days...well...there is nothing that is going to be better than that. I would even pay more for that option rather than buying through a mail order house.

My one hope would be that should he decide that he likes the unit he takes home that he keep it...meaning that he doesn't return it and then order it to save the difference. I have a strong sense of fair play and the shop owner who facilitated a good decision shouldn't be penalized for his generosity and good faith.

[Tokelil]

You're looking for an AV amp for 500euros or less.Well I could use upto maybe 700, but only if it gets me something "extra". (What extra is, I dont know... ;))
Anyway, stereo playback is the number 1. priority. How it sounds in surround isn't really that importent! I dont watch that many movies, though I do think surround adds a bit to the experience. (Though going from the build in speakers of the TV to sending the sound to you amp is a bigger difference...)

Thx for the links!!! Some reading to do the next weeks...

[Roj]

Onkyo I don't know much about. They've never really penetrated the UK market. They've tried though, in the Eighties, with disastrous results. The shop I worked in became their main Scottish agent. And as far as I remember it wasn't a happy relationship. They do sound good however, or at least as far as I can tell from a couple of hours of surfing.

My buddy Stephane has direct experience with Onkyo - he owned one of their receivers for ten years. They'e very solid and well-engineered and their quality is in the same class as Yamaha, a brand I particularly respect in the receiver department.

Glad to see you here, rory mon.

[acushla]

ONYKO. They'e very solid and well-engineered and their quality is in the same class as Yamaha, a brand I particularly respect in the receiver department.

This is one of those times that I get to say one of my favourite, yet to many, most annoying, statement.

I TOLD YOU SO.

[rorythedog]

Well I could use upto maybe 700, but only if it gets me something "extra". (What extra is, I dont know... ;))
Anyway, stereo playback is the number 1. priority. How it sounds in surround isn't really that importent! I dont watch that many movies, though I do think surround adds a bit to the experience. (Though going from the build in speakers of the TV to sending the sound to you amp is a bigger difference...)

Thx for the links!!! Some reading to do the next weeks...

The something extra that 200euros would get you is 7.1 sound.

What speakers are you planning to use? What's the source going to be?

[Shadowraven]

Let me guess: Your Money My View.

I'm going to share a little secret that has been 100% successful for me for at least 6 years now. What's more...it is a secret that I came up with...and if you send just $24.95 I will...I'm sorry...got carried away there......
......Don't believe me? Try it.

Yes that might work, but I've had customers ask me that question many times. As far as the staff goes, I would usually be that person you would end up talking to. However, in my department you would have done well with most of my employees. I couldn't be there everyday so I made sure that my employees were well trained, understood the product and could arrive at a decent, honest solution for a customer. I do not tolerate dishonest, self-serving people. I managed the Computer, Video, Audio, and Appliance departments in my time there. My people knew their business and it showed in our sales being best in our district. Acushla, as good as your idea is, I would have expected the question and would have been ready with my answer. To be honest I could even have led you to ask it, but I wouldn't if it wasn't what you wanted. I didn't want you to experience buyers remorse because you ended up buying something you eneded up hating. My own code would not allow deception. But it is a good idea to hire a female, train her, get her to like the products, and let her go. She can really sell to the guys!!

I'm a type of buyer like Roj though. I would throughly research the product, then go out to buy something. However, I would often shop the way you say you do. The only difference being I would play out enough rope for the salesperson to hang themselves with. If they didn't, they earned my respect and I could talk to them. Otherwise I'd tell them nicely to go away.

I do agree that you should bring your own music to test units with. That is one thing you are already familiar with. Don't let the salesperson control you though. If you can't control the situation, walk away from him or go somewhere else.

I'm with Rory on Cambridge. It is supposed to be very good, but I've never been all that fond of them. I also agree with his advice on shopping.

If what you guys say about Onkyo is true, I'm glad to hear it. I always liked them before, and I'm glad they saw the light and got back to what they were. They were always very good before, and what I would have suggested once upon a time.

Roj is right about Yamaha. Mmmm, I've always liked them. But I know people who would argue with me on that and call them crap. Just goes to show you....

BTW Roj, I'll have to say I didn't appreciate being basically called a lowlife. Just thought I should tell you, since you didn't refute that arguement.

[Shadowraven]

OK, I will:

AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH HHHHH!!!!!!!!

Bose couldn't get a clue about building quality linear audio speakers if they put on the clue mating costume, sprayed themselves with clue musk and did the clue mating dance while bellowing the clue love call in the middle of a field of horny clues at the height of clue mating season.

That's the polite version.

OK Roj. I'll have to say that that is a different adaptation of that old joke. At least it's an original one. However, I can't remember how the original went right now. I always liked it.

[Todd The Kiwi]

i've got a yamaha that can melt my neighbours liver from here, it cost $200.
i can't remember who said it (these posts are too dang long) "trust your ears not mine"
too bloody right mate, if we trusted your ears we'd be broke! ha ha ha :P

new threads:

"how many smart arse canadians does it take to choose an amp...?"
"how many poor Danish students does it take to pay for it...?" ha ha ha

but seriously folks :nervous:

[Shadowraven]

i've got a yamaha that can melt my neighbours liver from here, it cost $200.
i can't remember who said it (these posts are too dang long) "trust your ears not mine"
too bloody right mate, if we trusted your ears we'd be broke! ha ha ha :P

new threads:

"how many smart arse canadians does it take to choose an amp...?"
"how many poor Danish students does it take to pay for it...?" ha ha ha

but seriously folks :nervous:

That was too funny. And true. Some of us aren't independently wealthy.
10 points to Todd.:rolleyes:

[acushla]

i've got a yamaha that can melt my neighbours liver from here, it cost $200.
i can't remember who said it (these posts are too dang long) "trust your ears not mine"
too bloody right mate, if we trusted your ears we'd be broke! ha ha ha :P

new threads:

"how many smart arse canadians does it take to choose an amp...?"
"how many poor Danish students does it take to pay for it...?" ha ha ha

but seriously folks :nervous:

i've got a yamaha that can melt my neighbours liver from here, it cost $200.

That may be true but how is it in reproducing music?

(these posts are too dang long)

That's what it looks like when people are actually saying something of importance.

new threads:
"how many smart arse canadians does it take to choose an amp...?"
"how many poor Danish students does it take to pay for it...?" ha ha ha

One...and believe me when I say this... it is done out of a sense of giving and helpfulness... as that opinion was sought after by someone who sincerely wanted some input.

[Shadowraven]

i've got a yamaha that can melt my neighbours liver from here, it cost $200.

That may be true but how is it in reproducing music?

(these posts are too dang long)

That's what it looks like when people are actually saying something of importance.

new threads:
"how many smart arse canadians does it take to choose an amp...?"
"how many poor Danish students does it take to pay for it...?" ha ha ha

One...and believe me when I say this... it is done out of a sense of giving and helpfulness... as that opinion was sought after by someone who sincerely wanted some input.

We realize that acushla. He's just having fun with you. You guys are discussing all these esoteric products that some of us would love to have. However we could never possibly afford them.

Todd's comment was funny.

[Todd The Kiwi]

i reckon it sounds good, it looks pretty too...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/ampanddvdcropped.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/thegearcropped.jpg

[acushla]

i reckon it sounds good, it looks pretty too...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/ampanddvdcropped.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/thegearcropped.jpg


Looks good. What are the speakers and the player?

[Todd The Kiwi]

speaks = wharfedale valdus 500's
dvd = sanyo sl33
amp = yamaha rx-v592

they all rate well, so does my soundcard.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/flash2.gif

[acushla]

speaks = wharfedale valdus 500's
dvd = sanyo sl33
amp = yamaha rx-v592

they all rate well, so does my soundcard.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/flash2.gif

Wharfedales...that brings back a lot of memories. When I was in LA in '66 - '68 and living with my Uncle (who is also very into audio 'gear')...he converted a two car garage into a listening room. During the remodeling he build speakers and put them side by side in the middle of the wall and then made mathematically correct 'duct enclosures'' which ran on the other side of the wall emerging as two 18" holes positioned where the corner met...one in each corner. These amounted to Ports which allowed the lower frequencies to remain intact...creating a seamless sound.

As a result...he no longer needed his floor standing, chest high, arms width Wharfedales and was kind enough to give them to me...and so into my room they went. In many ways the quality of sound these speakers were able to obtain would rival most speakers on the market today. Keep in mind we are discussing speakers I was listening to nearly 40 years ago. This allows me to consider that, in general, speakers follow a general 'fixed' design principal that has no real need to change. What does change, of course, are the materials that make up the actual speaker...tweeters and the like.

How old is your pair? Or perhaps they are new?

[auster]

n :cool: ice speakers! Especially floorstanders I like :cheerful: .Maybe we can start a speaker /amp showoff thread and we all could bask in the collective glory of our hardware( especially since we have a desktop show off thread running) And I'll post mine:cool:

[Roj]

BTW Roj, I'll have to say I didn't appreciate being basically called a lowlife. Just thought I should tell you, since you didn't refute that arguement.
Where, when and how did I call you a lowlife? Such was NEVER my intention nor could it ever be.

[Roj]

OK Roj. I'll have to say that that is a different adaptation of that old joke. At least it's an original one. However, I can't remember how the original went right now. I always liked it.
I learned it on Usenet years ago...

[acushla]

I learned it on Usenet years ago...

Good...you're up...finally. While you were busy sleeping I've been holding down the fort but now you can 'tag team' me and I can go to bed.

Don't forget to post on the 'Happy Birthday, Matt' thread...and tuck that shirt in. Lord have mercy!

Later.

[Roj]

Good...you're up...finally. While you were busy sleeping I've been holding down the fort but now you can 'tag team' me and I can go to bed.

Don't forget to post on the 'Happy Birthday, Matt' thread...and tuck that shirt in.

Later.

OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH - Matt's b-day!

Kewl.

Tag, I'm It!

Looks lik eI have some damage control to do with the Raven - heaven knows I never meant to offend him either. Never type when on the thin edge of exhaustion. Just went thru a couple days of intense PD research for the meeting that went down at the hospital two days ago (we lost) and it pretty much destroyed me.

Niterz and God Bless...

[Tokelil]

The something extra that 200euros would get you is 7.1 sound.

What speakers are you planning to use? What's the source going to be?
As said else where (long thread already...) Im going to use my Bose speakers with it, untill I have saved up for some new ones. (Been looking at buying some second hand... Seems like the market is bigger than with receivers)
Source will primarily be my PC. Going to buy a DVD/CD at some point though for it...

[rorythedog]

As said else where (long thread already...) Im going to use my Bose speakers with it, untill I have saved up for some new ones. (Been looking at buying some second hand... Seems like the market is bigger than with receivers)
Source will primarily be my PC. Going to buy a DVD/CD at some point though for it...


Aye, sorry for asking that again. That's what happens when "some people" take a thread WAY off on a tangent.

Never mind. OK, as we've discussed before, please ignore all this guff about Bose. In the right environment Bose can be quite acceptable. I''m sad enough to have arranged my entire living room around two huge lumps of wood. Some people don't have this luxury. Enter Bose.

One problem with these small sattelite type speakers is that their connections are of the spring clip variety. Which are pants, of course. Try to ensure that whatever amp you buy has proper binding posts. Probably not much advantage with the Bose speakers but if you ever upgrade these later, at least your amp will be able to grow with them.

As for pre-outs, I wouldn't worry about such things. If you did choose the NAD for instance, the power amps you'd need to buy would be so expensive that they'd show up the quality of the source for what it is.

Remember the addage - Garbage In, Garbage Out. Your main priority should be the source. Then the amp, and finally the speakers. IMO, loudspeakers only alter the "character" of the sound. not the quality. That's down to the source.

As for an amplifier, well that's all you want it to do really. Amplify. Which is why I have a problem with multi-channel sound in general. Far too much crap is in the way. The best amplifier is a straight piece of wire. The more the sound is processed, the more signal is lost. Period.

[acushla]

We realize that acushla. He's just having fun with you. You guys are discussing all these esoteric products that some of us would love to have. However we could never possibly afford them.

Todd's comment was funny.

...trust me...I was the first to recognize it...of course his comment was funny...doesn't preclude my giving an honest answer.

[cudelleirbag]

i've got a yamaha that can melt my neighbours liver from here, it cost $200.
i can't remember who said it (these posts are too dang long) "trust your ears not mine"
too bloody right mate, if we trusted your ears we'd be broke! ha ha ha :P

new threads:

"how many smart arse canadians does it take to choose an amp...?"
"how many poor Danish students does it take to pay for it...?" ha ha ha

but seriously folks :nervous:

lol! very funny.
I also own a Yamaha amp, and I'm very happy with it
I also think denon and harman kardon are overrated.

CL

[cudelleirbag]

i reckon it sounds good, it looks pretty too...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/thegearcropped.jpg

Hehehe!
Don't you think the speaker should be closer to your ears ;)

Just kidding. I own similar high tower speakers too.
JBL's. They don't make them anymore, but they look similar to this model
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/images/products_large/E100.jpg

You don't have to be a student to be poor. Get married and procreate a couple of times, you'll see...

CL

[Roj]

I do agree that you should bring your own music to test units with. That is one thing you are already familiar with. Don't let the salesperson control you though. If you can't control the situation, walk away from him or go somewhere else.

I have one specially created from multiple sources for just that purpose. It includes (among others):

Queensryche - Chasing Blue Sky
Stevie Ray Vaughan - Riviera Paradise
Kenny Barron - Clouds
Ronnie Earl & The Broadcasters - Indigo Burrell
Santana - Europa (Earth's Cry heaven's Smile)
Roxy Music - Avalon
Phil Collins - In The Air Tonight
Enya - Only Time

Some test imaging, some see how well the vocals get differentiated from the surrounding instrumentation, some test soundstage, some test dynamic range, some test all of the above and more.

Dems' some of my picks - I assume y'all will roll yer own.

[Roj]

You don't have to be a student to be poor. Get married and procreate a couple of times, you'll see...

No kidding - I hear you, man. I didn't learn the first or second time - I have three kids. :)

[Roj]

This sounds uncomfortably too much like work to me.

It's FUN to me. :)

Besides, I've also been in the biz for 15 years.

Think about it...I don't care how much research you do reviewing speakers...it is a waste of time as I have recently found out. You would NEVER choose a speaker based on reviews.

I agree. My statement was more for the electronics behind the speakers. For sp[eakers there is one and only one solution:

Multiple auditions with your own material.

You might have a lot of fun and find it very satisfactory to do the research...but I wouldn't march into a store and put my money down before talking to some people who have had direct experience with whatever it is I choose.

That's part of the research and that usually ISN'T the salesperson. That's what online boards and friends are for.

Oh yeah...I am a window viewer (I regard some of them to be a version of a modern museum...stores and products like GUCCI, YVES ST. LAURENT, PRADA...which amount to the Porsche's and Lexus in their respective field. The living embodiment of quality. Would I spend $1000.00 on an Ostrich Belt.

Y'see, that just doesn't do it for me. Too much time with too little return. Maybe if I was with someone who had a story to tell on each item, like yourself... But not alone.

Impulse buyer? Only when I'm in a record store.

Not me - that's what online downloading is for. :) :) :)

[acushla]

Dems' my picks - I assume y'all will roll yer own.

Nope. I'm going to go with these.

[Todd The Kiwi]

nice JBLs Gabriel man, i like the old ones.
the new ones look a bit 'dinky' to me aye.

[acushla]

Impulse buyer? Only when I'm in a record store.

Not me - that's what online downloading is for. :) :) :)

Which brings us right back to the Arnold question.

[Roj]

Which brings us right back to the Arnold question.

Not at all. If I download and like it (sa I did with the new Rhievery Corporation), then I'll buy it. That's why I'm now eagerly anticipating the release of the latest new order - I've downloaded it and now want ot buy it.

I've also stated that I could stand to download and NOT buy for the next 30 years and still not break even for what the record companies have ripped me off. That's true too. But we can get into that and why they're brought that upon themselves and richly deserve it in another thread if you like.

For now, let's just say the record companies are finally experiencing karma.

[acushla]

ROJ:

Not at all. If I download and like it (sa I did with the new Rhievery Corporation), then I'll buy it. That's why I'm now eagerly anticipating the release of the latest new order - I've downloaded it and now want ot buy it.

I admire this.I've always felt within this lies a workable solution to the entire download process. Mind you, we would have state on our honor that, once our 30 day trial period was over...we would delete...or buy.

I've also stated that I could stand to download and NOT buy for the next 30 years and still not break even for what the record companies have ripped me off.

Hu-huh...sort of like the same reason Linda Lovelace HAD to make THAT film. Somebody was holding a gun to your head and yelling...buy...buy...buy. There is another way of looking at this...I mean...if you were ripped of to the extent that you could download for more than 30 years and STILL not be even...well...boy...I bet there's a group on a sail boat named Roj sailing of the shores of Bermuda right now laughing their heads off. You sure got me laughing.

Oh...got to go...my Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Inventions 'We're Only In It For The Money' has just finished downloading. Talk about the truth!

[Willow of Oz]

How many threads have been hijacked by the issue of copyright??

[Roj]

Let's just say I saw the price of 12" DJ singles go from $3.99 to $25.99 in three years - for no aparrent reason.


So, let's see.

We'll start with the whole concept of buying the SAME album on vinyl, CD (at lesser quality than the vinyl original because the record companies intentionally held back the best technology for over ten years, resulting in the new "remastered" editions so popular today) and now digitally for use on portable players (since copy protection is supposed to prevent you from ripping YOUR OWN property for use on said player - you have to BUY it again at LESSER lossy quality for MORE money than you paid for the original LOSSLESS version) and you'll see what thieving parasites these people are. Add to that the way they treat and ripoff artists (or did you manage to miss Courtney Love's "I want to talk about the biggest lot of thieving pirates" statement, not to mention Prince's?) and you can add "PIMP" to the list of adjectives. Top that off with the invasive scattershot lawsuits to citizenry (with more than a few innocent people being served) and you append "THUG" to the description. Oh, and don't forget the payola to the radio stations - add the word "RACKETEER" - and the special interest lobbies and payoff to politicians to get laws favoring them passed - what's that, GERRYMANDERING? - and th blatant PRICE GOUGING ($20+ for a CD?) and there's a sorry load of reeking refuse.

We won't even get into the blatant hypocrisy of their claims of "being wronged" - that's a whole other discussion that will paint them in an equally bad light.

Like I said, we should put that in another thread. Better yet, we shouldn't go there.

[acushla]

Let's just say I saw the price of 12" DJ singles go from $3.99 to $25.99 in three years - for no aparrent reason.


So, let's see.

We'll start with the whole concept of buying the SAME album on vinyl, CD (at lesser quality than the vinyl original because the record companies intentionally held back the best technology for over ten years, resulting in the new "remastered" editions so popular today) and now digitally for use on portable players (since copy protection is supposed to prevent you from ripping YOUR OWN property for use on said player - you have to BUY it again at LESSER lossy quality for MORE money than you paid for the original LOSSLESS version) and you'll see what thieving parasites these people are. Add to that the way they treat and ripoff artists (or did you manage to miss Courtney Love's "I want to talk about the biggest lot of thieving pirates" statement, not to mention Prince's?) and you can add "PIMP" to the list of adjectives. Top that off with the invasive scattershot lawsuits to citizenry (with more than a few innocent people being served) and you append "THUG" to the description. Oh, and don't forget the payola to the radio stations - add the word "RACKETEER" - and the special interest lobbies and payoff to politicians to get laws favoring them passed - what's that, GERRYMANDERING? - and th blatant PRICE GOUGING ($20+ for a CD?) and there's a sorry load of reeking refuse.

We won't even get into the blatant hypocrisy of their claims of "being wronged" - that's a whole other discussion that will paint them in an equally bad light.

Like I said, we should put that in another thread. Better yet, we shouldn't go there.

Walk away quiety. Roj. Walk away.

[Shadowraven]

Let's just say I saw the price of 12" DJ singles go from $3.99 to $25.99 in three years - for no aparrent reason.


So, let's see.

We'll start with the whole concept of buying the SAME album on vinyl, CD (at lesser quality than the vinyl original because the record companies intentionally held back the best technology for over ten years, resulting in the new "remastered" editions so popular today) and now digitally for use on portable players (since copy protection is supposed to prevent you from ripping YOUR OWN property for use on said player - you have to BUY it again at LESSER lossy quality for MORE money than you paid for the original LOSSLESS version) and you'll see what thieving parasites these people are. Add to that the way they treat and ripoff artists (or did you manage to miss Courtney Love's "I want to talk about the biggest lot of thieving pirates" statement, not to mention Prince's?) and you can add "PIMP" to the list of adjectives. Top that off with the invasive scattershot lawsuits to citizenry (with more than a few innocent people being served) and you append "THUG" to the description. Oh, and don't forget the payola to the radio stations - add the word "RACKETEER" - and the special interest lobbies and payoff to politicians to get laws favoring them passed - what's that, GERRYMANDERING? - and th blatant PRICE GOUGING ($20+ for a CD?) and there's a sorry load of reeking refuse.

We won't even get into the blatant hypocrisy of their claims of "being wronged" - that's a whole other discussion that will paint them in an equally bad light.

Like I said, we should put that in another thread. Better yet, we shouldn't go there.

Amen brother, preach the gospel!

I agree with everything you just said 100%. I couldn't have said it better or more succinctly myself. They piss me off too. I'm long past feeling sorry for any corporation losing money. As far as I'm concerned they're fair game. Keep in mind folks this is coming from a person with a strong moral code and upholds the law. However, many of my fellow officers feel the same way I do on this subject.

BTW guys, if we are going to discuss this, lets take it over to the California post where it is already being discussed. That's where probably belongs anyway.

[Roj]

Walk away quiety. Roj. Walk away.

ROFLMFAO!!!

[Shadowraven]

ROFLMFAO!!!

Roj, I'm still somewhat new to forums. Just what the heck does that mean anyway?

Edit: Forget it Roj. Answered the question myself. What can I say, I had a brain fart. Google is my friend...

[acushla]

Let's just say I saw the price of 12" DJ singles go from $3.99 to $25.99 in three years - for no apparent reason.

Probably there were 50 times the number of DJ's in three years and at the same time a reduction in the production of 12' DJ Singles.

Yeah...that's it. See how easy and logical that was?

You see Roj...if you just look for the answer you'll find it.

[rorythedog]

Probably there were 50 times the number of DJ's in three years and at the same time a reduction in the production of 12' DJ Singles.

Yeah...that's it. See how easy and logical that was?

You see Roj...if you just look for the answer you'll find it.

Hehe, you're right. They reduced 12' singles to 12" singles.

ROFLMHO

[Shadowraven]

Hehe, you're right. They reduced 12' singles to 12" singles.

ROFLMHO

I'd like to see the record player they play that single on. :cheeky:

[Roj]

Probably there were 50 times the number of DJ's in three years and at the same time a reduction in the production of 12' DJ Singles.

Yeah...that's it. See how easy and logical that was?

You see Roj...if you just look for the answer you'll find it.
Almost as logical as 12' singles (Blue Whales?) :) :) :)

I'm gonna leave it unedited - it's just too bizarre...

[acushla]

Almost as logical as 12' singles (Blue Whales?) :) :) :)

I'm gonna leave it unedited - it's just too bizarre...

You know what I enjoyed most about this...after all the laughs I've given everybody else I finally got to laugh. Isn't it ironic to realize I was responsible for my own laugh!

I'm funny even when I don't know it.

Smiles.

[Todd The Kiwi]

Would I spend $1000.00 on an Ostrich Beltwith a qmp buckle, yes :laugh:I'd like to see the record player they play that single onforget that, i'd like to see the shop that sells them ha ha ha ha
you'd need a forklift to get your stuff to the counter :cross-eye

willow of oz - yeah man heaps :puzzled:

[Shadowraven]

with a qmp buckle, yes :laugh:forget that, i'd like to see the shop that sells them ha ha ha ha
you'd need a forklift to get your stuff to the counter :cross-eye

willow of oz - yeah man heaps :puzzled:

Now that is a funny image. You have one twisted mind.

It would look like one of those warehouse sized hardware stores. Just imagine the shopping carts!