acushla, here is your answer...

[Shadowraven]

acushla said:
What is Wicca?

That seemingly simple question would normally take a complicated answer to fully explain, but I'll try to you give a short answer.

Wicca (or The Craft as some call it) is a Neo-Pagan religion based on what we know of ancient Pagan beliefs. It was created about 60 some years ago by Gerald Gardner in England. It has since branched off into many different traditions

Many Wiccans also call themselves Witches, but they ARE NOT the same. Some Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan. It's complicated.

The central tenets of the religion emphasize personal responsibility in your life and for what happens to you, a belief in what Buddhists call karma, and the creed "Do as thou wilt, but above all Do No Harm".

It IS NOT devil worship, as some people would have you believe, that would be anathema to us. Besides which we don't believe in a devil. It is more akin to Native American beliefs

Some Pagans are reluctant to even let others know what they are for fear of reprisals and discrimination (I've seen it happen before). We are generally not real popular with Christians, especially the fundamentalists who have tried to get Wicca outlawed. While others love to stand out and flaunt their difference for the attention it gives them. I believe the folks who truly serious about it are like me, they don't stand out.

I could go on about this but if you're just curious check out the informational links on my site at:
http://shadow-raven.home.att.net/spirit.htm

[acushla]

What is Wicca?

The central tenets of the religion emphasize personal responsibility in your life and for what happens to you, a belief in what Buddhists call karma, and the creed "Do as thou wilt, but above all Do No Harm".

I could go on about this but if you're just curious check out the informational links on my site at:

http://shadow-raven.home.att.net/spirit.htm (http://shadow-raven.home.att.net/spirit.htm)

The central tenets of the religion emphasize personal responsibility in your life and for what happens to you, a belief in what Buddhists call karma, and the creed "Do as thou wilt, but above all Do No Harm".



This sounds perfectly normal to me. I suspect one could be a Wicca all their lives and not know that they were a Wicca. I feel that there is not enough emphasis in Western Culture (is that an oxymoron?) on accepting personal responsibility for ones life. Oh boy…this is going to raise some ire…Overweight people stuffing their face with cake who between bites mumble something about genes…or not being loved…etc. etc. NEVER admitting that perhaps a part of the problem is that they have no will power, discipline to reduce their food intake and start doing some exercising. I could right a chapter of examples…and I am sorry I choose overweight people as my example but the truth is that no matter which example I gave I would have to apologize to that group. The problem is NOT the overweight part…I have found that generally speaking the only person really concerned with the weight is the person who has it…nobody else really cares…what I take exception to is all the reasons/excuses given by the person who has the weight. If somebody came to me and said ‘Yeah, I know I’m overweight but the taste of those McDonald’s and chocolate…I love it so much I just don’t want to stop eating them, and I hate to excerise’, then hey, great, at least that person is putting the responsibility squarely where it belongs. Yes there are exceptions…yes…there are genetic reasons…but not in the majority of overweight people there aren’t.

Karma and "Do as thou wilt, but above all Do No Harm" are really one and the same thing and these belong to that which is at the heart of all world religions…namely the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’

I’m going to end here for now and do a little research and learning about Wicca. It does sound interesting. I will use the link as a starting point. I am curious how something that seems so innocuous gains the label of ‘Devil Worshipers’ to a portion of the outside world. That and the fact that Christians want it banned. That seems like a mighty inappropriate response to anything that emphasizes personal responsibility and a ‘…Do No Harm.’ Philosophy.

How did you come to learn about it?

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Not to sound insulting or anything that may offend anyone, but are there any atheists here? I am one myself but i tend not to go into religious discussions. I feel people should believe in what they think is right and gives them moral support. Out of curiousity, I feel the urge to make a poll with the main religions but i'm not sure if i should. :nervous:

[acushla]

Not to sound insulting or anything that may offend anyone, but are there any atheists here? I am one myself but i tend not to go into religious discussions. I feel people should believe in what they think is right and gives them moral support. Out of curiosity, I feel the urge to make a poll with the main religions but i'm not sure if i should. :nervous:

You know Rex...contained in your post I see a very interesting idea. Religious discussion...not just a poll...but a discussion among those of us who would be genuinely interested in carrying on a dialog both to express and to learn things about what is at the core of the teachings of those other 'labels'. Part of this stems from the fact I am reading a book on the History of Judaism...and it is truly fascinating. The fellow who builds my computer is a Muslim...the first Muslim who I have had the opportunely to get to know on a personal basis. When we are not discussing computers we are discussing religions...as a result I have learned a great deal about his faith. You know what? Change some of the names around...do this, do that...and essentially what you have is pretty much what we have. At it's core it is not a whole lot different from religions in general. This shows me that if we take the time to listen and to learn about each other...then walls begin to fall, fear dissipates as does suspicion...and you have an entirely different understanding of your fellow man and you appreciate the fact that they are not so foreign after all. You know what my computer builder said to me at one point? He said that I was the first person who took an interest in his culture and was willing to discuss and exchange ideas on religion. He has been in Canada a long time and I just felt that was such a sad comment on us as a people. We have opportunity all around us and we fail to use it. I am interested in learning a lot of things...and I would be really interested in having you, Rex, be able to discuss what it means to you (apart from the obvious) to be an atheist?

[Willow of Oz]

Not to sound insulting or anything that may offend anyone, but are there any atheists here?

Aye, one here.
I didn't even know it was such a big deal to 'come out' as an atheist until I read some stuff (atheist.org?) explaining how it was in the USA. They explained about people deceiving even their spouse as to their 'non-christianity'. That was ... informative. I'd never really thought about it as such.

Australia, even though we're quite a 'multicultural society' etc, still tends to be quite a christian nation, though not of the fundamentalist variety as found (so it would appear) in the USA.

[hedge]

Yeah I'm an atheist too... well that said I believe in Science, which could very loosely be called a religion anyway (a system of beliefs that further our understanding of the world around us etc etc)

[rorythedog]

I'm an aetheist, although I would have to say I lean more towards Budhism. Karma's real.

I wouldn't bother with a poll though, it'll only send the Christian fundamentalists up the wall.

[madjo]

I'm not exactly an atheist, I do believe in some higher power, but I do not go to church or anything. :)

btw, I was brought up and baptised as a 'protestant' (a form of christianity), but I do not feel much connection to that religion. :) thought that is what I tend to fill in when asked on forms or CVs. :)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

To be an atheist means little to me other than that i am sure there is no such being as a God. Science provides all the answers to me i seek. And to the things science does not (yet) provide answers to, i am positive that someday we will be able to explain those particular phenomena on the basis of proof and the scientific method. Of course i do not condemn faith. Believing is part of everything. However, science goes beyond belief. I feel that for an explanation of a phenomenon we need proof. Mere faith and acceptance is in most cases not enough to convince others of your theory.

Also i have a little problem with all the religions out there and the existance of God, because in every other culture we are dealing with another God or Gods. Who is the true God? As Douglas Adams (atheist and deceased author of the hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy) puts it: “Is there an artificial God?” A God that we made up to explain all that we see around us. As Douglas believes, i believe too that that time has gone and past. We now have much better means of explaining the things we see around us. We have the tools and the knowledge and the open-mindedness. I think that being an atheist is not condemning oneself but keeping an objective view of the universe and everything in it.

Ok you can start flaming me now :silly:

To Madjo -> You are then better descibed as an agnost, in case you didnt know ;)

[Willow of Oz]

Follow up info for those unsure of the definition of atheism / atheists...

Atheism:
The lack of a belief that deity, in the form of one or more supernatural gods or goddesses, exists.

a=without, theism=religion

Flipping through a book just the other week on 'religions of the world' or somesuch, I came across a definition such as "denial of the existence of God", which I have to admit was a little offensive. The book title escapes me, but implied an unbiased look at all the world's religions.

[Willow of Oz]

To Madjo -> You are then better descibed as an agnost, in case you didnt know ;)

Hmmm, I beg to differ. I'm a little hazy on where all the distinctions lie, but here's one that I'm happy with that I managed to find on the web:

Agnostic: one who thinks that it is not possible to know whether or not a god exists.

I'd say belief in a higher power -> theism of some form.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Hmmm, I beg to differ. I'm a little hazy on where all the distinctions lie, but here's one that I'm happy with that I managed to find on the web:

Agnostic: one who thinks that it is not possible to know whether or not a god exists.

I'd say belief in a higher power -> theism of some form.

OK my bad. I am myself a bit uncertain about what it all means. :cross-eye

[Qaz]

Also i have a little problem with all the religions out there and the existance of God, because in every other culture we are dealing with another God or Gods. Who is the true God? As Douglas Adams (atheist and diseased author of the hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy) puts it: “Is there an artificial God?” A God that we made up to explain all that we see around us. As Douglas believes, i believe too that that time has gone and past. We now have much better means of explaining the things we see around us. We have the tools and the knowledge and the open-mindedness. I think that being an atheist is not condemning oneself but keeping an objective view of the universe and everything in it.

Terry Pratchett (IIRC) had a good (IMO) way of explaining godhood. God exists if there's even a single person believing in him/her/it. And as there is people believing in various gods, there also exists various gods. So Adam's question about artificial god is in my opinion is a good one. And answer to that is yes. In the end, does it really matter whether it's artificial or not?

As hedge mentioned, science can be thought as a religion? It's purpose is to explain the world around us. The very same purpose religions have had for thousands of years. Nowadays we naturally have much more accurate ways of explaining it, but still we will never be able to explain it perfectly. So science is just as artificial as science.

Where they differ, is the open-mindedness. Traditional religions try to stick to their traditions when science is constantly trying to find new things and approaches.

I'm a christian myself (evangelic lutheric to be more exact) but not because I believe there's some guy sitting on a cloud's edge, but because it's a huge part of our history and culture.

[Willow of Oz]

As Douglas Adams (atheist and diseased author of the hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy)

Unintentional humour??? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

To be an atheist means little to me other than that i am sure there is no such being as a God
That's probably a little stronger than I would have put it, but basically that sums it up. It really isn't *about something* so much as what it's not about. It's about not having belief in a god. And that's pretty much it. If you believe in a god, I'm guessing it's because you must feel something inside that makes you believe there is a god. In my case, I have no such feeling inside. Sure, other stuff follows (Christian god -> The Bible as your bible) but that's basically it. I'm guessing both sides find it a little perplexing as to how the other side can, well, just be (yes, I know I've just polarised it into theists : atheists, forgive the simplification).
:beer:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

AMERICAN ATHEISTS: Mr. Adams, you have been described as a “radical Atheist.” Is this accurate?
DNA: Yes. I think I use the term radical rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “Atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘Agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god—in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It’s easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously. It’s funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague, wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague, wishy-washy Agnosticism—both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much.

--From The Salmon of Doubt by Douglas Adams

Or if you are referring to my wording, i must have made a joke im unaware of :puzzled: :cheeky:

[Willow of Oz]

Or if you are referring to my wording, i must have made a joke im unaware of :puzzled: :cheeky:

'Diseased' author.
I think you mean deceased author.

Gee, I'm still laughing. That's a classic.

[rorythedog]

Maybe I'm not an aetheist then. I do believe in a "God", but I believe it's my conscience. If I can live with that I'm happy.

Rex, wait until you're older. Sometimes things do just "happen". I've seen it too many times. It's Karma man.

Quick anecdote. Bare with me -

For the last 17 years of my mothers life she was in a wheelchair with MS. A nightmare. I was in my teenage years through to my twenties. I couldn't accept the injustice. God did not exist. No way.

There was this one guy, a smackhead, a dickhead. I worked beside him for a time. We never got on. He continually made remarks about people with disabilities, referring to them as "spastics" or any other derogatory term he could come up with. His vocabulary was severely restricted anyway. This guy just made everyone's life a misery.

Anyway, years later, I was walking home one night when there he was. With three of his cronies. Well the abuse just came thick and fast. Shouting across the street. This time it was targeted though. They were talking about my mum, specifically.

As you can imagine, I was furious. I knew I was on a hidin' to nothin' if I tried to take him on right away. I went home, telling myself I'd calm down in a bit. But the truth was, I'd been broken. I only had one intention. I was going to kill him. No question. Fait Acomple. Or something like that.

Later that night, another mate came up to visit me. He found me sitting in a corner of the living room shaking with rage. I had the weapon in my hand. He'd heard what had happened and was checking up on me. He's one of the good guys. It took him about two hours to get through to me. Kept saying things like "what goes around comes around" and "tae each his ane" and "you reap what you sow".

The very next day, my intended "victim" was out of his face on who knows what and as he started to cross the road, was hit by a 40-tonne oil tanker. He lived, of course. Although he lives in a wheelchair. Completely crippled and mildly brain- damaged.

Not many people know all this, or at least they didn't. It's been a long time since I've ever talked about any of that stuff. It was Karma. From that day on I've believed in it. And the funny thing is that the more you open up your mind to Karma, the more evidence you see all around, day by day.

By all means Rex, look for the rational explanation. But when you don't find it, don't discount the possibility of some other "power". Even if, as I believe, that power is your own subconscience.

If you get the chance, listen to "Beyond Mirrors" by Yello. Taken from the album "Pocket Universe". That track pretty much sums up my entire belief system.

[acushla]

In the end, does it really matter whether it's artificial or not?

...science can be thought as a religion? It's purpose is to explain the world around us.

I've read 'Better to believe in God and find out you were wrong than to NOT believe in God and find out you were wrong'.

Seems to me that the main purpose of religion is not so much to explain the world around us as to define our behaviour while we are in it.

[madjo]

I've read 'Better to believe in God and find out you were wrong than to NOT believe in God and find out you were wrong'.

Seems to me that the main purpose of religion is not so much to explain the world around us as to define our behaviour while we are in it.
Though some religions take that step rather too drastically. :)

I say, if you can respect your neighbour (very loose term) regardless of religion or tone of skin, then you are a true human being. :)

[o2xygen]

Although I am baptismed as Christian Orthodox I have my doubts... Like everyone who is passing faith crisis (i don't know if there is such expression in english. I translated from greek)
Sometimes I do believe to an upper essence (again from greek) like a God, I doesn't necesarily have to be the Christianic God. The God of world, the nature or something.
but sometimes I just selfish and I believe that humans are shaping their destiny alone.

Christianity for example says that you have to do this and that and go to church etc.. What happens to those other billions of people in asian countries for example that believe in another religion?

My personal conclusion is that, there might be a God... A God of all people, of unity...

[rorythedog]

Beyond Mirrors by Yello. Lyrics by Dieter Meier.

"The age of science has failed to explain our universe in rational terms.

Consequently the power of magic has gradually emerged from our conscious minds to fathom the unfathomable.

Our most distinguished scientists reluctantly admit, that mankind is nothing but some billion creatures, sitting on a piece of solar driftwood floating in space.

Magic is the art of influencing the cause of events by the intervention of spiritual forces or some other occult device.

According to arthur c. clarke any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Early civilization often mistook the unexplainable world around them to be magic.

Rupert sheldrake in his book "seven experiments that could change the world" has stated that scientist’s attitude toward their experiments affect the results of their experiments.

There is no such thing as a definite fact in science and therefore the irrationality of magic plays an important part in our rational world.

Werner heisenberg, the leading 20th. century physicist has stated, that mass is a physical interpretation of energy.

Religious organizations have understood the power of magic; and therefore monopolized the interpretation of the supernatural to control the human mind.

The universe as a whole is beyond explanation.

Only at the end of the 20th century the roman catholic church admitted, that the great visionary galileo galilei was, in fact, correct.

The second millennium has come to an end. scientists have to admit that the universe is magic.".

[acushla]

then you are a true human being. :)

...as opposed to a false human being? A pretend human being? A wanna' be human being? (hahaha)

[Willow of Oz]

I've read 'Better to believe in God and find out you were wrong than to NOT believe in God and find out you were wrong'.

Seems to me that the main purpose of religion is not so much to explain the world around us as to define our behaviour while we are in it.

I've heard these arguments before, and I'd have to respectfully disagree.
First, as I said earlier, you can't just 'believe in a god'. I can't logically assume (somehow) that belief in a god is better than non-belief and instantly make myself believe.
Two, as O2xygen points out, there are a lot of religions. Which should I select? Muslim, Norse, Christian? Should I draw up a matrix of all the world's religions and find out which offer the greatest payload? Admittedly this sounds flippant, but it's a serious question. Just because Christianity, in it's many forms, is the religion de jour is no reason to select it by default.

With regards to the second point:

If you're an atheist, WYSIWYG, so you might as well make the world the best place you can. This life is all you have - there's no second chance, there's no death-bed redemption, there's no wheel of time.
And yes, atheists have morals too.

Finally, when a child is born, what faith does he have? Before an adult imprints one? I'm not saying they'll never believe in gods, but I don't see how you can believe that one particular (true) faith is going to strike them.
Children tend to grow up having the same religion as their parents.
Something I find quite significant.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I think that people get really nervous when they hear that there is nothing after death. Admittedly its a hard concept to accept. No one has proven it. Only through cold logical reasoning can a pure scientist tell you what happens to you body when you have died, but what happens exactly to the mind is still a mystery. So an atheist should accept that there is nothing after death by definition when also accepting the fact that there is no God. Even i find it hard to accept it, but i dont actually believe in the idea of heaven and hell either. Nor do i believe that a bacteria lives on someway after it died. It would seem some rules only apply to human beings.

[jawpr]

I would love to explain the Christian faith to the point that every one here could understand it but as you know, in this forum there are many completely different so called forms of religion which means it would be impossible for me to do so. I feel like the very best thing I can do in that regard is to recomend to anyone who is serious about wanting to understand what the Christian faith really is, is to point you to the authorizied King James version of "The Bible' . For those who really want to know, it fully explains who the real true God is, the beginning of all things, things past,present and future, where we all came from, why we are where we are, our relationship to Him, How we are to live our lives, where we are headed and why, who Jesus really is, why He had to go to Calvary, Where He is now, where we will spend eternity, God's simple plan of Salvation, How we can change our eternal destiny, Things past,present and future. It leaves no question unanswered. The Only book I have ever read that is ALIVE.
I'm sorry to say that not every one that says they Christians are. The Bible explains how you can know them. I might add one other thing. The Bible is of no private interpetation. It was Spiritually written and CAN ONLY be Spiritually interperted which simply means that only one who has excepted Christ as His personal Savior {at which the time the Holy Ghost comes into his life for the express purpose of leading and guiding him into all truths) can understand the true meaning of the words contained therein. The greatest minds on this earth can read it and to them it is a book of mass contraditions when actually there is not a single contradition in all the Bible. Every word is true from beginning to end. All scripture must fit together and magnify each other, if you are to get the true meaning.

[rorythedog]

So you've met God then?

[jawpr]

So you've met God then?

Through the eyes of faith yes but one day soon face to face. It changed my entire life from the inside-out. It changed the way I talk, the way I think, the way I walk, my whole life. For the first time in my life, I found out what real joy,happiness, peace, contentment, purpose, real love, real living really is. Even if there was not a real Heaven to go to when this life is over,which there most certainly is, I wouldn't go back for anything this world has to offer.

[rorythedog]

Fair play to you. You're obviously commited. It would be interesting to hear what happened that convinced you of this. There must have been some pivotal event to convince you so much. :carrot:

[hedge]

That is what religion gives people, something to believe in and give purpose to their lives. Hence it is a good thing if interpreted in a manner that achieves good. Of course, there are far too many ways to interpret literature, and books the scale of the bible can easily be misused and interpreted for personal gain or 'evil' as such.
Just look at Bush, the man is purely driven by what he believes is the will of god. Now obviously i can't know this for sure ( :nervous: ), but I don't think god could endorse bush's actions... Hell I don't think god would really care overly much about humanity anymore...
One all powerful being creating all is a little hard for me to believe anyway... But it does warrant the question, what happened at the beginning of it all.
Matter just can't appear from nothing, yet the idea that it has been there forever is also rather hard to accept :cheeky:

[o2xygen]

Maybe God died :nervous:

[Todd The Kiwi]

there is no way of proving any gods non/existence, so i have to say i'm an agnostic.
i find religion even more boring than politics.

isn't there some general 'rule' about never discussing -
race, religion, politics, sex or browsers in civilized company :cheeky:

[jawpr]

Fair play to you. You're obviously commited. It would be interesting to hear what happened that convinced you of this. There must have been some pivotal event to convince you so much. :carrot:


I can only give God all the credit for what happened to me. I went to a tent meeting one day with my dad and heard a message from one of God's choice preachers that must have been meant for only me. It caused me to take a real close look at what I was and I didn't like anything I saw. Then it pointed me to what I could be and I knew exactly what I had to do. That is when I begin the journey I am now on. I picked up the Bible and begin to prayerfully read, pray and medicate on the things recorded there and found out that book is alive. The more I read the sweeter it became. I found the answer to all my questions and then some. My total conviction and dedication has come from trying to live that life with Him and the miracles He has performed in my life and the life of those around me. Just one I will share with you - My son was born 10 lb 8 ounces. Doctors told us he was as healthy as could be. After we brought him home, he slowly begin to lose weight and after 3 or 4 months, he was loseing 1 ounce every day he lived. Everything we give him would come back as soon as it hit his stomach. We tried different doctors and was finally sent to the top hospital in NC. After 10 days (we were told to go home and leave him after 7 days so they could determine if he was doing this trying to get his way) We were called back to the hospital to meet with a team of Doctors. They told us they had put him through every test they had and they were convinced the 2 prongs at the top of his stomach that holds down the food had no muscle at all and when the food went down, there was nothing to hold it down. They said they could not give us any hope at all because he was already down to not much more than a stack of bones. They said the only way medically that he had a chance of living was if by some miracle, he could live long enough for the muscle to gradually begin to gain enough strength to slow down the food loss, then to break even and then slowly begin weight gain which they said was almost impossible given his condition. For those 10 days we had him there, my wife and I and our Church were constantly in prayer. Well, guess what! we brought him home and from that day forward, He started gaining weight like crazy. Just as if he had never had a problem. In almost no time, you would never have known he ever was sick a day in his life. Believe what you want. I know what happened. And that is just one of many things in my life that has increased my faith in the truths of God's Word.

[Shadowraven]

acushla a refinement of my answer:

The Wiccan Creed "Above all Do No Harm" is not exactly the golden rule but it is close. It does emphasize that you should always try your best not to hurt others. It's more difficult then it seems. It means do no harm, to people, other living things, the enviroment, or the earth. That would make it different from Christianity which has more specific rules of behavior. The creed makes you more mindful of your own effect on the world around you and enjoins you to be more responsible for your own behavior. The creed says you can do evil if you like, but karma says you'll pay for it now, here. Not in some imagined afterlife.

In Wicca karma is called the "Rule of Three". They call it that because they say whatever you put out into the world will return to you threefold. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I can tell you, like rory says, karma IS real. Whether you belive in it or not. I've seen it happen.

With Wicca I'm not sure that you could say that we believe in a God as does Christianity or Islam. I'd say it's more like a spirit that suffuses everything around us. You don't really pray in Wicca other than to give thanks. The universal spirit could care less about us. The world is set up as a place where good and bad things happen, and in the randomness of it, sometimes good people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. The universe could care less.

We also never proselytize. We'll teach you if you are interested, but we will NEVER go out and try to force it down someone else's throat. We let you come to it on your own, by your own path, in your own way. I've also found out that Wicca is the fastest growing religion in the U.S. right now. Part of it is like someone said here. You may be Wiccan in spirit or belief and never even know it until you read something about it. That's the way it was with me. I knew about the religion, but didn't know anything about it, until I happened across a website about it and there had my epiphany.

I myself started out as an Atheist, then as an Agnostic, now Wiccan. This genesis occurred over a period of time as I've witnessed eventsaround me. Then I heard of a logical explanation for how a God or Great Spirit could exist. I seriously doubt that it would be anything like the Christian God (which is basically the same as the Islamic or Judaic). Wicca seems to have a more logical explanation for it. An impersonal spirit that is in everything, everywhere, but is not inimical or caring towards us in particular. It just is.

I'm still not convinced there is any afterlife like heaven. But it is possible the spirit could live after death. We just don't know. It may not. I'm not convinced either way. I've always considered death like a switch. When you shut it off that's it, there is no more. While many people get uncomfortable about that (I know I do) that still doesn't change the facts, like it or not. It doesn't matter what we like, if non-existance is what's in store for us after death, it'll happen anyway.

I'm basically realist, or try to be. I live in the world as it is, not how I'd like it to be. I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist, but I do try to live in the assumption that can get better. The world is NOT fair. Anyone who ever told someone that was lying. You could always do good and bad things keep happening to you or the reverse might be true. That doesn't mean karma doesn't work, it just hasn't caught up to you yet. It will. I had bad things keep happening to me at some points in my life, but I still kept trying to be good. It's finally caught up to me and things aren't so bad now. The universe IS random and there are NO guarantees. Karma just says that if you keep being nasty, you'll end up paying for it in a BIG way. It doesn't guarantee nothing bad will happen to you if your are good.

That is one bone I have with Christianity. They DON'T emphasize personal responsibility for their actions. Oh they say they do, but they assume they'll be forgiven for their "sins". Sin is another thing I don't believe in, it's destructive thinking. Christian's assume their life is all in God's hands. When bad things happen to them, they assume God is punishing them for some wrong. They also assume that He will always protect them. Just plain wrong. Sorry, I've got to go so can't finish now. Off to work!

[rorythedog]

I can only give God all the credit for what happened to me. I went to a tent meeting one day with my dad and heard a message from one of God's choice preachers that must have been meant for only me. It caused me to take a real close look at what I was and I didn't like anything I saw. Then it pointed me to what I could be and I knew exactly what I had to do. That is when I begin the journey I am now on. I picked up the Bible and begin to prayerfully read, pray and medicate on the things recorded there and found out that book is alive. The more I read the sweeter it became. I found the answer to all my questions and then some. My total conviction and dedication has come from trying to live that life with Him and the miracles He has performed in my life and the life of those around me. Just one I will share with you - My son was born 10 lb 8 ounces. Doctors told us he was as healthy as could be. After we brought him home, he slowly begin to lose weight and after 3 or 4 months, he was loseing 1 ounce every day he lived. Everything we give him would come back as soon as it hit his stomach. We tried different doctors and was finally sent to the top hospital in NC. After 10 days (we were told to go home and leave him after 7 days so they could determine if he was doing this trying to get his way) We were called back to the hospital to meet with a team of Doctors. They told us they had put him through every test they had and they were convinced the 2 prongs at the top of his stomach that holds down the food had no muscle at all and when the food went down, there was nothing to hold it down. They said they could not give us any hope at all because he was already down to not much more than a stack of bones. They said the only way medically that he had a chance of living was if by some miracle, he could live long enough for the muscle to gradually begin to gain enough strength to slow down the food loss, then to break even and then slowly begin weight gain which they said was almost impossible given his condition. For those 10 days we had him there, my wife and I and our Church were constantly in prayer. Well, guess what! we brought him home and from that day forward, He started gaining weight like crazy. Just as if he had never had a problem. In almost no time, you would never have known he ever was sick a day in his life. Believe what you want. I know what happened. And that is just one of many things in my life that has increased my faith in the truths of God's Word.

Well that's a nice story. A happy ending too. Not many of those around these days. Thing is, I suspect the same thing could happen to anyone else in this forum. I think the important thing was that you had faith that things would work out. I can't imagine it would make all that much difference who your god is, it's the faith that worked.

I don't see where the church, any church, fits in a modern society. The church was all well and good in the past when there were so many unexplainable things happening. It gave a sense of order. The belief that things happened for a reason. Where it all went wrong was when the leaders realised that not only was this an easy way to control the masses, but it was damn lucrative too.

Remember, the only difference between a Cult and a Religion is numbers.

You seem like a nice guy, and you have to believe that I respect your right to believe what you will. It seems to me your brand of Christianity harms no-one, and I respect that too.

Would that I could say the same for your country's leaders...

[rorythedog]

Isn't this turning into an interesting thread? Might even go to a new page.

[madjo]

...as opposed to a false human being? A pretend human being? A wanna' be human being? (hahaha)
hehe indeed.. I think you know what I meant :) I should have used a different term, but you have to remember that English is only my second language... and it is quite hard to express this in English (although I wouldn't also be able to express it quite that well in Dutch either)... :)

[madjo]

I would love to explain the Christian faith to the point that every one here could understand it but as you know, in this forum there are many completely different so called forms of religion which means it would be impossible for me to do so. I feel like the very best thing I can do in that regard is to recomend to anyone who is serious about wanting to understand what the Christian faith really is, is to point you to the authorizied King James version of "The Bible' . For those who really want to know, it fully explains who the real true God is, the beginning of all things, things past,present and future, where we all came from, why we are where we are, our relationship to Him. No one knows who or what the real true God is. No one has really seen him, so you can't say this book shows the real true God, because you don't know... This book is also an interpretation of a translation of something written in symbolic, as any other version of the Bible or the Koran or the Torah or the... etc etc etc.

There are many religions, and I like Terry Pratchett's idea of 'Little Gods', where there are as many gods as there are faiths (as long as someone believes in that particular God, He/She/It exists), :) and the only constant in life is death. :)

[Willow of Oz]

and the only constant in life is death. :)

Be interesting if humankind manages to fix that one.
Each year the average lifespan increases. What happens once the average lifespan increases by a year every year ? :biggrin: :robot: :grimreape

[acushla]

there is no way of proving any gods non/existence, so i have to say i'm an agnostic.
i find religion even more boring than politics.

isn't there some general 'rule' about never discussing -
race, religion, politics, sex or browsers in civilized company :cheeky:

With all due respect Todd The Kiwi, at the beginning of this thread you will find the following: 'You know Rex...contained in your post I see a very interesting idea. Religious discussion...not just a poll...but a discussion among those of us who would be genuinely interested in carrying on a dialog both to express and to learn things about what is at the core of the teachings of those other 'labels'.

If you find religion more boring than politics that is certainly your perrogative...but not everybody shares that point of view.

As for your 'rule'...it just might be the reason there is so little understanding and tolerance in our world today.

Now go play.

[madjo]

Be interesting if humankind manages to fix that one.
Each year the average lifespan increases. What happens once the average lifespan increases by a year every year ? :biggrin: :robot: :grimreape
I surely don't want that to happen.. I don't care for eternal life... it should end... a peaceful way is much preferred ;)

[acushla]

I've heard these arguments before, and I'd have to respectfully disagree.
First, as I said earlier, you can't just 'believe in a god'. I can't logically assume (somehow) that belief in a god is better than non-belief and instantly make myself believe.
Two, as O2xygen points out, there are a lot of religions. Which should I select? Muslim, Norse, Christian? Should I draw up a matrix of all the world's religions and find out which offer the greatest payload? Admittedly this sounds flippant, but it's a serious question. Just because Christianity, in it's many forms, is the religion de jour is no reason to select it by default.

With regards to the second point:

If you're an atheist, WYSIWYG, so you might as well make the world the best place you can. This life is all you have - there's no second chance, there's no death-bed redemption, there's no wheel of time.
And yes, atheists have morals too.

Finally, when a child is born, what faith does he have? Before an adult imprints one? I'm not saying they'll never believe in gods, but I don't see how you can believe that one particular (true) faith is going to strike them.
Children tend to grow up having the same religion as their parents.
Something I find quite significant.

I trust you appreciate that I was simply relaying a saying I had heard (and found amusing) and not taking a position one way or the other. The second comment is my personal observation that the role of religion in life seems to be not so much as to explain the Universe etc. etc. but more directed to wards instilling a mode of behavior as to how we live this life.

[Willow of Oz]

Cheers acushla. I appreciate it now :)
I can't recall the origin of the first comment, but it was made by Someone Important, perhaps CS Lewis?? But it's still not valid :biggrin:

edit: post 42! This is it!! What does it mean?? That the meaning of life, the universe and everything can be found by drawing up a payload matrix of religions?? Hmmm. No. This post can't be the answer. I speak, of course, of the one who will come after me ....

[Sheepeh]

Not to sound insulting or anything that may offend anyone, but are there any atheists here? I am one myself but i tend not to go into religious discussions. I feel people should believe in what they think is right and gives them moral support. Out of curiousity, I feel the urge to make a poll with the main religions but i'm not sure if i should. :nervous:

I jumped in to this thread late so excuse me if I repeat something already said because I haven't read it all yet. Personally I used to say I was an athiest until I had a talk with one of my former teachers at High School (Secondary school to some of you). This guy was truly an inspiration to me, a genuinly thought-provoking guy and we had a few enjoyable debates outside of school - he tought me a lot about life in general and I suppose about myself and the way I thought about things.

After one discussion we had we were talking about religion and stuff, he mentioned that he thought all people who called themselves Athiests were at best mis-guided. When I asked him why, he simply replied that to outright BELIEVE there is nothing and noone above is without investigating the facts is quite arrogant, yet no man has the lifetime to invent an experiment to prove either way if God is real or not. To him, it is better to say you're agnostic because while you don't believe at the moment, you accept you may be wrong and are willing to be open-minded. This is my current position on the matter, and I must say it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me...I don't believe in any organised religion, it feels faaar to much like brainwashing to me. I agree with (most of) the principles of (most) religion, but not the organised part.

I agree with the point raised earlier (sorry I don't remember by who) about children taking on their parent's religion. If a child is never told about religion they will never even think of the idea. Take a step back, and it does seem pretty daft. The belief that a deity spent 7 days making just this planet would mean s/he spent bloody ages making everything else, yet never got a bit bored and thought I've had enough of making planets round, I'm gonna make a square one!!

The only thing I see religion doing in the world is providing an excuse to make war on each other. To truly get world peace, you'd need to stop that from taking place and sadly due to extremists that isn't ever going to happen.

<edit> just skimmed through most of the thread and I must say ShadowRaven, while I kinda knew about Wicca and things like that vaguely our ways of life are pretty much the same...it's mainly a matter of semantics, as from what I understand Wicca is more about your lifestyle and taking the time to think rather than blindly believing in something. I also respect the thing about not ramming it down other people's throats, something a hell of a lot of religion do, even if indirectly. You've got me thinking. Again. </edit>

[Sheepeh]

They wouldn't fit in the post above, but there is also a track that sums up my beliefs pretty damn well. Pretty apt for a music player forum we should explain ourselves by lyrics, I guess.

"Something To Believe"

Popped up this morning just a little off center
God fearing world, I'm so afraid to enter
Haven't decided what to do
Looking back, looking over my shoulder
Still agnostic, every day it gets older
Haven't decided what to do
Holy books, so many flaws no answers
Believe in him, or fear him like a cancer
Haven't decided what to do
Bible banging, slanging Jesus at my door
Hey son, this is something you can't afford
Haven't decided what to do
Oh, give me somethign to believe
So many down on their knees
It baffles me, baffles me
Popped up this morning like nipples in the winter
God fearing world, I'm so afraid to enter
Haven't decided what to do
After life, after death uncertain
Choose your side before they're dropping the curtain
Haven't decided what to do
Where do I go for my inspiration
Go with the flow, with the standing ovation
Haven't decided what to do
Standing idle, waiting for doomsday
Damned if you do, damned if you don't say
Haven't decided what to do
Learned my lesson from history
I'm not claiming to be Jesus Christ and company
I am needy, I'm a thief
I'm not claiming to have role model qualities
But here's a lesson,
Simplicity
From a poor boy who don't believe in destiny
Be good to one another, set yourself free
All the pieces they fall together

[acushla]

Two, as O2xygen points out, there are a lot of religions. Which should I select? Muslim, Norse, Christian? Should I draw up a matrix of all the world's religions and find out which offer the greatest payload?

According to an episode of South Park, the correct answer is 'Morman'. Mormon is the answer God was looking for. All others go to Hell.

[Willow of Oz]

When I asked him why, he simply replied that to outright BELIEVE there is nothing and noone above is without investigating the facts is quite arrogant, yet no man has the lifetime to invent an experiment to prove either way if God is real or not. To him, it is better to say you're agnostic because while you don't believe at the moment, you accept you may be wrong and are willing to be open-minded.

I'd disagree. Even if we put aside that 'atheist' can mean 'one without belief', it should still be reasonable to take a position (let's say "there is no god") and accept that you could be wrong (and reevaluate at that time).
Eg. Are there invisible men at the bottom of my garden? My position? No. I haven't investigated this thoroughly. Have *you* done experiments to prove either way whether or not such invisible men exist at the bottom of *your* garden?
Are you agnostic with regards to the Norse gods? The Greek gods? A god called Bob that created everything yesterday, including you with false memories of a past you never experienced?
Without any evidence, I see it as reasonable to take a stand in the negative. Otherwise you sit on the fencepost for any unreasonable claim.

[acushla]

A god called Bob that created everything yesterday, including you with false memories of a past you never experienced?

I've met him...I think.

[Shadowraven]

The one thing I can say about Wicca is that it is NOT necessarily organized. There is Wiccan clergy and there are organizations, but nothing like Christianity, with one text to read from. You could go to several different groups and not find any of them saying exactly the same thing. Most follow the basics, but vary in the practice. There are a lot of solitaries out there (like me) that don't even associate with a larger group, but keep our beliefs close to ourselves. I tend to follow the Universal Eclectic Wicca, which does have a course you can take on the religion to learn their version, but with variations, so I'm not necessarily traditional. There are some out there who call themselves Wiccan, but they borrow from so many other religions they might be better described as Neo-Pagans. Most of us don't assume that we have a corner on the truth either. After all, there could be many different truths, for different people.

When I mentioned praying earlier you might remember that I said it was to give thanks. You might also remember I said that the universe doesn't care. Hence our giving thanks and marking observing the sabbats are done more for our own benefit, rather than a belief it will make any difference. Mind you not all Wiccans necessarily believe that, but the ones I know do. I haven't always observed all the sabbats (4 minor & 4 major) in what I consider a proper way and that makes me uncomfortable. Not because I feel I'll be damned or anything, but because I feel I'm being ungrateful. Weird, huh?

Part of the way I came to this was one description given on a website about Wicca. The thing that stuck in my mind was a person having a feeling of wonder or connectedness (is that a word?) when out in the woods or any nature setting. You could almost FEEL a spirit (or smaller spirits) infusing it. Might have been just mind tricks, but I've FELT it many times before. I never got that feeling from being in a Christian church or among the believers. But, I started out negative towards Christianity because I felt that, as a religion, it has way too much to atone for. The tenets of Wicca also followed very closely to what I've always believed. I'd dabbled in Buddhism for awhile, but I didn't like many aspects of it. But I've taken some of it ideas away with me (Zen teachings of Huang Po) as well as from the Tao Teh Ching (from Lao Tzu). I find Wicca much more satisfying. It's based more in what I consider reality.

BTW, if you're interested, Wiccans often take what they call a craft name when they join the religion. That is where I get my web name. My craft name is Shadowraven.

[jawpr]

No one knows who or what the real true God is. No one has really seen him, so you can't say this book shows the real true God, because you don't know... This book is also an interpretation of a translation of something written in symbolic, as any other version of the Bible or the Koran or the Torah or the... etc etc etc.

There are many religions, and I like Terry Pratchett's idea of 'Little Gods', where there are as many gods as there are faiths (as long as someone believes in that particular God, He/She/It exists), :) and the only constant in life is death. :)


You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. Every human has that right. You said ' no one has seen him'. and 'No one knows who or what the real true God is'. I disagree.completely. Seems to me all any one who doesn't believe that really wants to know the truth would have to do is search the history of all the events that happened around 2005 years ago in and around the town of Bethlehem. About a man called Jesus, born of a virgin, lived and preached there, healed the sick and lame, raised the dead,walked on the water, commanded the wind to be still,cast out devils, performed all manner of miracles,
foretold of His death, burial and resrection from the dead after 3 days, appeared to his disciples, was seen by over 5000 at one time, then accended back into heaven. Surely there are records of such great events in more than just The Bible. But to those who find it impossible to believe there is a God, I'm sure would find all these things even more impossible to believe. The Bible,s account of God and the beginning creation and things past and things to come have remained the same down through the years. How many times has science's theory of the beginning of all things changed? What proof of all these "other Gods' does anyone have? What do they have to offer? Could anyone possibly believe that floating matter just drifting in space just happened to form such a complicated thing as the human body? Wonder how our eyes, our fingers, our teeth, our toes just happened to land in the right place? Surely that floating matter had to have a little 'unseen' help. Come on folks - be real!

[hedge]

Science is good because it isn't set in stone. Religions are oft too set for there own good. And you give me the proof that evolution didn't occur, cos theres more then enough saying it did.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

About a man called Jesus, born of a virgin,...raised the dead,

You see i have a problem with these two notions. First of all birth just cannot happen if there had not been sex. Secondly you are saying that Jesus was a necromancer? That gives me the willies.

If you were to study Earth sciences, then you would be surpised that "floating matter" as you name it indeed can form a planet and with the right conditions (ie not too close or too far from the sun) life can develop. Of course, im not sure what your standpoint is on the age of the earth and universe. If you are not a devout creationist than you will agree that the earth is 4.2 Billion years old and the universe 13.7 Billion years old. That gives plenty of time for life, and eventually intelligent life to develop dont you think?

[Shadowraven]

Someone here said that you might consider science a religion, not quite...

Science does not really require you to take what it is says on faith. Rather, it relies on observable facts and repeatable experiments that can be used as evidence. It has a set of rules that, when followed, insure that we don't have to take anything on faith because the evidence is there for anyone with an open mind to see.

Like I said, it doesn't require faith to believe in solid observable facts. While there are some unproven theories out there that are treated as fact, there is a reason for that. They are used as an explanation to build on, until they can be proven or disproven by the evidence at hand. They may just happen to be the best explanation for what we know right now. Particle Physics is often like that because there is so little we really know about it, even now.

Mind you I don't include evolution in this category. That is a ship that has already sailed and been pretty much proven by the facts. That regardless of what anyone religious might say. Let me say this now. There is NO real science involved in the "theory" of intelligent design. It is only religion with a mask on.

Rex Mundi:
More than enough time, regardless of what the Creationists say. They are now trying to change the curriculum in the U.S. to give equal time to the ideas of evolution and intelligent design. (shudder) They are trying to argue that there is "evidence" for intelligent design and that it has nothing to do with religion. I'd like to say to them "If that's true then who did the intelligent design? Aliens?". It's obvious to any intelligent person that they are starting out with the assumption of God existing to do the designing. Hardly good science.

[Shadowraven]

I've met him...I think.

Yeah, I think I saw him in a bar drinking with a monkey on his shoulder. :cross-eye

[rorythedog]

You all might recall how I earlier mentioned my mum's illness and it's confirmation to me that God did not exist. Well it's worth pointing out that at the same time my Mothers belief in God strengthened. Go figure.

[rorythedog]

To Jawpr and the "Scientists", you seem to have a lot in common. There doesn't seem to be any room in there for alternatives. Don't you think?

God might well have given you fingers and toes, but he also gave you a brain. To be used for analytical thought. Using it this way does not bring one to creationism, IMO.

[Willow of Oz]

First of all birth just cannot happen if there had not been sex.

Well, you're forgetting asexual reproduction. Life is quite an amazing thing. However, since you're probably restricting this to humans, fair comment.

[Willow of Oz]

And on a new note:
We have atheists, agnostics, christians (shout out if you want to differentiate between them/yourselves) and wiccans (same as previous comment).

Are there other religions out there as represented by forum members?

[acushla]

They are trying to argue that there is "evidence" for intelligent design and that it has nothing to do with religion. I'd like to say to them "If that's true then who did the intelligent design? Aliens?".

Aliens? Funny you should ask:

According to a lawyer and science enthusiast in Portland, Oregon, not only is the universe full of life, but some of it may be intelligent beyond our wildest imagination. He also says that collectively as intelligent beings we are entwined in our ultimate destiny: to give birth to another universe.

"Intelligent life is, in essence, the reproductive organ of the cosmos," said James Gardner, the lawyer who moonlights as a scientist. He has pulled together his theory—called the selfish biocosm—from the disparate fields of physics, biology, biochemistry, astronomy, and cosmology.

Gardner has published pieces of his theory in several peer-reviewed scientific journals and wraps it together in his recently published book, Biocosm: The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe. Though Gardner admits the theory is speculative and out-there in the literal and figurative senses, it is grounded enough in serious research to at least tickle the fancy of some of the world's most respected scientists.

If you want the whole story (National Geographic) here's the link:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0311_040311_biocosm.html

[Willow of Oz]

I recall hearing a similar idea some time ago, something involving Earth / Gaia reproducing was to develop creatures capable of taking it's spore / general biomass and transplanting it to another planet. Anyone chime in if you have something here - all I've got is a foggy recollection.

You know, it's often argued that there are so many planets etc out there that there has to be life elsewhere. But if you consider how difficult it might be to actually have some life form and evolve - that could mean it's pretty damn rare. Either way, as Carl Sagan said - either we are alone in the universe, or we aren't. Both possibilities are mind-boggling.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Well, you're forgetting asexual reproduction. Life is quite an amazing thing. However, since you're probably restricting this to humans, fair comment.

Yeah that's called cloning. I didnt forget, but back in the ol' days people didnt tend to clone themselves. Do you guys know that aphids can clone themselves (the female ones)? That explains why in the spring there are suddenly so many bloody juice suckers on the rose bushes.

Come to think of it we do share one religion, all of us. We are the most devout qcd/qmp worshippers the world has ever known. Why else did we come to this place? ;)

[madjo]

Yeah that's called cloning. I didnt forget, but back in the ol' days people didnt tend to clone themselves. Do you guys know that aphids can clone themselves (the female ones)? That explains why in the spring there are suddenly so many bloody juice suckers on the rose bushes.

Come to think of it we do share one religion, all of us. We are the most devout qcd/qmp worshippers the world has ever known. Why else did we come to this place? ;)
Now let us pray that the new version will be out soon. :)

[jawpr]

You see i have a problem with these two notions. First of all birth just cannot happen if there had not been sex. Secondly you are saying that Jesus was a necromancer? That gives me the willies.

If you were to study Earth sciences, then you would be surpised that "floating matter" as you name it indeed can form a planet and with the right conditions (ie not too close or too far from the sun) life can develop. Of course, im not sure what your standpoint is on the age of the earth and universe. If you are not a devout creationist than you will agree that the earth is 4.2 Billion years old and the universe 13.7 Billion years old. That gives plenty of time for life, and eventually intelligent life to develop dont you think?

Hey Rex - you are way over this country boy's head. I have absolutely no idea what the word 'necromancer' means. So I can not answer that one. Your
first statement concerning sex is absolutely true BETWEEN TWO HUMAN BEINGS. That was not the case with Jesus. God supernatually placed that seed in the womb of Mary. There was no sex. A baby's blood type comes from the father, not the mother. Jesus had his father's blood which was pure and therefore acceptable unto God the Father. After man had fallen into sin in the garden of Eden, they were placed on this earth and all their offspring were under the bondage of sin,eternally separated from the presence of God. The only sacrifice that God would accept for an atonement for their sin was a lamb without spot and without blemish. Jesus was the only one that qualified and He voluntary agreed to come, take all the sins of the world into his own body and offer up His own perfect, Sinless soul to His Father as an atonement for the sins of everyone who would accept Him as their personal Savior. If man would have had any part of His birth, then His sacrifice would not have been acceptable unto God. He freely paid the price that we could not pay to redeem us back to a relationship with God.
As far as how old the universe and earth is, I have no idea. I really doubt that anyone else does. However, I would agree with the numbers you suggest as being what man has come up with from the studies science has done. I would like to say also that from a number of reports that I have read, there are also many sciencetist that do not believe in evelolution.
Question - Who hung the Sun and the moon out in space?
One other thing I would like to say. With no reflection on anyone, we all should know because our beliefs are completely different, there is going to be almost nothing we could agree on so let's please refrain from attacking anyone's intellegence.
Where I stand - I except every word of The Bible as the absolute truth. Everything it stands for, I'm for. Everything it's against, I'm against. I don't understand everything but I believe it anyway. But I still respect everyone else's right to disagree and them as a person.

[manymosi]

Nicely said Jawpr, totally agree with you.

[rorythedog]

Jawpr, you're wrong. I think we agree on almost everything. The only difference between you and i on this point is that you need to have faith in God, whereas I just have to have faith. But you can't take the Bible literally, what happens to homosexuals and non-believers in your world? Do you believe we're all God's children? Or do you believe the non-believers are sinners and should be sent straight to hell without passing go?

The Bible is a fair moral guide, but it's just a guide, nothing more. And the same can be said for most other great books. Have you read "The Stand" by Stephen King? It's just as viable for me to hold that up as a good moral basis for life.

[acushla]

Yeah that's called cloning. I didnt forget, but back in the ol' days people didnt tend to clone themselves. Do you guys know that aphids can clone themselves (the female ones)? That explains why in the spring there are suddenly so many bloody juice suckers on the rose bushes.

Come to think of it we do share one religion, all of us. We are the most devout qcd/qmp worshippers the world has ever known. Why else did we come to this place? ;)

Amen!

Can I get a witness? I SAID...CAN I GET A WITNESS?

[madjo]

Your first statement concerning sex is absolutely true BETWEEN TWO HUMAN BEINGS. That was not the case with Jesus. God supernatually placed that seed in the womb of Mary. There was no sex. A baby's blood type comes from the father, not the mother. Jesus had his father's blood which was pure and therefore acceptable unto God the Father. After man had fallen into sin in the garden of Eden, they were placed on this earth and all their offspring were under the bondage of sin,eternally separated from the presence of God. but wasn't it the woman (Eve) that offered the fruit? By the way, I am finding it a bit difficult to believe every word that is in the bible.

As far as how old the universe and earth is, I have no idea. I really doubt that anyone else does. However, I would agree with the numbers you suggest as being what man has come up with from the studies science has done. I would like to say also that from a number of reports that I have read, there are also many sciencetist that do not believe in evelolution. there are also a number of evolutionist ssientist that go to church. :) Go figure :biggrin:

One other thing I would like to say. With no reflection on anyone, we all should know because our beliefs are completely different, there is going to be almost nothing we could agree on so let's please refrain from attacking anyone's intellegence. haven't noticed any of those attacks. :) (luckily)

Where I stand - I except every word of The Bible as the absolute truth. Everything it stands for, I'm for. Everything it's against, I'm against. I don't understand everything but I believe it anyway. But I still respect everyone else's right to disagree and them as a person.I, personally, like to question things... and that is also with the bible. I do not hold everything I read/hear/see for the truth. :) But that is just me personally.
But I think I can understand your side as well.

[jawpr]

Jawpr, you're wrong. I think we agree on almost everything. The only difference between you and i on this point is that you need to have faith in God, whereas I just have to have faith. But you can't take the Bible literally, what happens to homosexuals and non-believers in your world? Do you believe we're all God's children? Or do you believe the non-believers are sinners and should be sent straight to hell without passing go?

The Bible is a fair moral guide, but it's just a guide, nothing more. And the same can be said for most other great books. Have you read "The Stand" by Stephen King? It's just as viable for me to hold that up as a good moral basis for life.

No, I have not read 'The Stand'. As for as homosexuals and non-believers, my stand is just what I stated above. I could tell you in my own words but I don't want to start pinpointing certain people. I will tell you The Bible is very, very clear on both. I am trying to take part in this thread without condeeming anyone or their belief. You might not realize it but that is a pretty hard thing for me to do because I am totally committed to Him and His word. God only has the right to condeem. I just accept what His word teaches and believe it to be the absolute truth. You ought to try reading it for yourself. I think you would find it very interesting and enlighting.

[madjo]

The Bible is a fair moral guide, but it's just a guide, nothing more. And the same can be said for most other great books. Have you read "The Stand" by Stephen King? It's just as viable for me to hold that up as a good moral basis for life.
Okay, I had thought of this too once (only the example in my head was "The lord of the Rings" by Tolkien)...
I even got into a hefty argument with my mom, when I said, that it could be that the bible is just another book. (I do not wish to hurt people with this statement, it was an idea that I had at the time.. I know that the bible (and those other holy books) have been around for many centuries and that it isn't just another book and that many people try to live by its rules)

[rorythedog]

No, I have not read 'The Stand'. As for as homosexuals and non-believers, my stand is just what I stated above. I could tell you in my own words but I don't want to start pinpointing certain people. I will tell you The Bible is very, very clear on both. I am trying to take part in this thread without condeeming anyone or their belief. You might not realize it but that is a pretty hard thing for me to do because I am totally committed to Him and His word. God only has the right to condeem. I just accept what His word teaches and believe it to be the absolute truth. You ought to try reading it for yourself. I think you would find it very interesting and enlighting.

Sorry, I didn't get what you're stand was. Who's been attacking you, btw?

I quite believe it's difficult for you to partake in a critical discussion on religions. However, I do feel it's a cop-out to say that you don't condemn personally, but, that if that's what the Bible says then so be it. What about your own personal responsibility to be charitable, to see the other point of view? Most people here have admitted that they can see the other side of things, why can't you?

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Jawpr, a necromancer is a wizard who can raise the dead back to life. If you read up on some fantasy books then you're bound to come across them. I mean no offence to Jesus as you seem to be particularly fond of him. Even though i dont agree with you with many things you say, i dont blame you. I've had the opportunity to learn to see things from a scientific point of view. Someone who hasnt had this form of teaching, i know from experience, i cannot convince to think otherwise. As they say in Australia, no worries, mate. ;)

[Sheepeh]

I'd disagree. Even if we put aside that 'atheist' can mean 'one without belief', it should still be reasonable to take a position (let's say "there is no god") and accept that you could be wrong (and reevaluate at that time).
Eg. Are there invisible men at the bottom of my garden? My position? No. I haven't investigated this thoroughly. Have *you* done experiments to prove either way whether or not such invisible men exist at the bottom of *your* garden?
Are you agnostic with regards to the Norse gods? The Greek gods? A god called Bob that created everything yesterday, including you with false memories of a past you never experienced?
Without any evidence, I see it as reasonable to take a stand in the negative. Otherwise you sit on the fencepost for any unreasonable claim.

I sure am. I have done no experiments to see if there are little people in the bottom of my garden. There may well be. If I did do an experiment, they may be so small I didn't see them, they might be invisible, they could be made out of dog poo for all I know. To prove something doesn't exist is practically impossible, you can only prove something isn't as you think it might be. So to answer your question, yes I'd be "agnostic" to as there where little people in the bottom of my garden, the Norse and Greek gods, and a god called Bob...I simple cannot PROVE these things aren't real. I can take a negative outlook, sure, but I can't BELIEVE, 100%, kill-mankind-if-I'm-wrong kind of way. I am never 100% sure about ANYTHING, EVER...99.9% certainly, but never 100%.

I think it's mainly semantics again, to me an Athiest is someone who outright believes there is nothing, the exact opposite of someone who believes there is something. Anything not at either of those two extremes is a form of Agnostic. I could be wrong with that definition but that's my take on it.

[Willow of Oz]

Could anyone possibly believe that floating matter just drifting in space just happened to form such a complicated thing as the human body? Wonder how our eyes, our fingers, our teeth, our toes just happened to land in the right place? Surely that floating matter had to have a little 'unseen' help. Come on folks - be real!

:biggrin: Quite a picture. I don't think that's quite the way scientists' view history. Floating matter -> planets, sure, but life? That's a little more complicated and goes through the path of evolution.

At this stage we've all probably got a good idea of the broad strokes that make up our faiths (or equivalent) and getting bogged down in details of either the science or the religious texts is likely to just have us chasing our tails.

In defense of Jawpr (who unfortunately seems to be copping 9 out of every 10 questions raised here), but also in a general manner (if I may) if a religious text says "Statement 1", then to stand by that Statement because it's part of your faith is a reasonable thing.
No, I'm not saying that a religious text can say anything and it's reasonable, but you end up putting people in a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation, where if they say "Statement 1 is not relevant anymore / not really my God's word" then you accuse them of picking and choosing from their particular RT. Whereas if a person's religion has a RT (bible / Qur'an, etc) and they stand by that text, at least admire them for consistency and integrity.

:beer::beer::beer:

[acushla]

No, I have not read 'The Stand'. As for as homosexuals and non-believers, my stand is just what I stated above. I could tell you in my own words but I don't want to start pinpointing certain people. I will tell you The Bible is very, very clear on both. I am trying to take part in this thread without condemning anyone or their belief. You might not realize it but that is a pretty hard thing for me to do because I am totally committed to Him and His word. God only has the right to condemn. I just accept what His word teaches and believe it to be the absolute truth. You ought to try reading it for yourself. I think you would find it very interesting and enlightening.

One of the difficulties that people who do not believe every word the Bible says is taking seriously people who do believe every word the Bible says. I not only understand how 'hard' it is for you to refrain from pinpointing certain people...I'm going to go you one better and tell you it is impossible for you NOT to pinpoint certain people. When you start adding into the mix the belief that because you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour and all those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour are now considered to be a separate tribe of people glorifying the most reprehensible of depraved activity as existence and are all going to 'a serves them right' hell...well...those people find that thinking somewhat elitist and self-congratulatory, self-serving and, above all else, narrow minded. The problem is that there does not seem to be any room for dialog or discussion...only for conversion. Christians have made up their minds that there is only the Bible, that it and it alone is the true word of God... and therefal by default all other religions are false and meaningless. Why? Well because those religions are not your religion. Those people, regardless of how they life their lifes or the good they may achieve for humanity,those people haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour and, sorry, are going straight to 'a well deserved' hell. Do you have any idea to what disdain and contempt the vast majority of the world views this sort of thinking? Try, try for one moment to put yourself in just one of those persons shoes. How does it look?

Judaism, on the other hand, and remember, Jesus was a Jew, has for 5000 years had a council of learned Rabbis whose purpose it is to continually reinterpret the teachings of the Torah (the first 5 books of Moses) to have it integrated with the time and the culture it finds itself in. It is complex...it is very, very complex...but in the end it works for the good of all. Are there absolutes? Yes...but they have more to do with how you conduct your life to honor He who has given you life. I think ShadowRaven might be amused to learn how much Jews accept the notion of 'personal responsibility' Judaism is interesting on another point. When you do good for others, have compassion, help the needy and infirmed...you do it because it gives you a good feeling to do it. You do it because you want to do it...not because you think you'll get a cookie after you die. There is so much. I have studied all of the world's major religions while at the University of Ottawa and wrote a 'Compare and Contrast' paper. What I found is the same thing anybody finds when they do a study of that nature. All religions stem from the same root. Above that it would be a simple truism to say that all religions accept the other religions... except for guess which one?. That's right. People just see that atitude and conceit as repulsive and arrogant. The thing is...as long as the Bible exists and there are people who believe that every word of it is true (we won't mention the little addition the Catholic church made sometime in the 12th Century...or all the gospels which were not included in the Bible for the simple reason that it didn't further the political ambitions of those who were deciding what made it in and what got left out. What this means is that depending on who was putting the Bible together from the many gospels available (The Dead Sea Scrolls-The Nag Hammaadi Library) given different political (power) ambitions you would be reading a very different Bible today than the one you are reading. The one thing Christianity needs the most it will never have...Common Sense. I write this from the perspective of a neutral Historian...and nothing else.

[Willow of Oz]

I am trying to take part in this thread without condeeming anyone or their belief. You might not realize it but that is a pretty hard thing for me to do because I am totally committed to Him and His word.

We appreciate your input. :beer: And you are, after all, the only one informing us about the Christian religion here (a surprise to me, admittedly).

[jawpr]

Sorry, I didn't get what you're stand was. Who's been attacking you, btw?

I quite believe it's difficult for you to partake in a critical discussion on religions. However, I do feel it's a cop-out to say that you don't condemn personally, but, that if that's what the Bible says then so be it. What about your own personal responsibility to be charitable, to see the other point of view? Most people here have admitted that they can see the other side of things, why can't you?

No one has and I just hope it doesn't come to that. I would have to withdraw from this thread if it did. I do see the other point of view but I am trying to answer in a way that wouldn't lead to a personal attack.I hope I have succeeded in doing this. I don't think I have cop-outed. I have stated that I stand and believe everything the Bible teaches and the Bible says God hates all sin and names them but He loves the sinner and gave His only Son to die that we might be saved, and as a believer, that is where I stand. I hate the sin but I love the sinner. I have no personal beliefs except for those contained in His Word. If His Word says it is wrong, it's wrong. If not then it is not wrong. How is that being a cop-out? If we were talking face to face I could and would be much more open. But on here I have to be careful what I say for there are others that probably believe in their beliefs as strongly as I do mine and I do not want to offend them.
Man, I wish I could type! It takes me forever.

[acushla]

Most people here have admitted that they can see the other side of things, why can't you?

You have hit the nail squarely on the head. A Christian cannot admit to see the other side of things because there ISN'T another side. You either accept Christ as your Saviour and, simply put, go to Heaven or you do not recognize Christ as the Saviour in which case you are going straight to hell. We're right...when are you going to be right?

[jawpr]

You have hit the nail squarely on the head. A Christian cannot admit to see the other side of things because there ISN'T another side. You either accept Christ as your Saviour and, simply put, go to Heaven or you do not Christ in your life and are going straight to Hell. We're right...when are you going to be right?

And with these 2 post, I will back out and let this man who has studied all the relegions of the world take my place and answer all your questions. Proceed.

[acushla]

No one has and I just hope it doesn't come to that. I would have to withdraw from this thread if it did.

Like Daniel withdrawing from the Lion's cage?

I hope you don't pick up your ball and run home when things start getting tough.

That's too easy...after all...don't you have your faith? Can you not look to God to give you the words you need to teach the crowds? We're interested in what you have to say...more importantly, we're interested in you hearing what we have to say.

[Willow of Oz]

I have studied all of the world's major religions while at the University of Ottawa and wrote a 'Compare and Contrast' paper.

You missed Wiccan :ninja:. Okay, perhaps not a *major* religion as such, but I am surprised that you didn't come across it.

Could you list what the major religions are?

[acushla]

And with these 2 post, I will back out and let this man who has studied all the religions of the world take my place and answer all your questions. Proceed.

You know jawpr...it is not always 'personal' when one is exchanging ideas and you hear something that you don't like. I would suggest that your picking up your ball and running home' makes perfectly the point I was presenting...there is no discussion...there is no dialog because as soon as you are asked to think you run away. How does that do any of us any good? If you are going to be a Christian then stand up and be a Christian. I don't do this with the idea I'm going to change your mind...your certainly not going to change mine by running away. It is NOT personal...don't make it personal.

[hedge]

You know jawpr...it is not always 'personal' when one is exchanging ideas and you hear something that you don't like. I would suggest that your picking up your ball and running home' makes perfectly the point I was presenting...there is no discussion...there is no dialog because as soon as you are asked to think you run away. How does that do any of us any good? If you are going to be a Christian then stand up and be a Christian. I don't do this with the idea I'm going to change your mind...your certainly not going to change mine by running away. It is NOT personal...don't make it personal.
By saying he's running away, you might as well be saying that he isn't standing up for himself, which many would deem as personal... Some people take written words very seriously, and it is obvious jawpr is one such person. This is definitely not a bad thing, but it does mean that things can get heated rather quickly.
You do however make a very valid point when you say that christanity is very single minded. You either believe in it, or you are a non-believer and a sinner as such. I'd say thats a very outdated view, but hey to each his own.

[rorythedog]

Like Daniel withdrawing from the Lion's cage?

I hope you don't pick up your ball and run home when things start getting tough.

That's too easy...after all...don't you have your faith? Can you not look to God to give you the words you need to teach the crowds? We're interested in what you have to say...more importantly, we're interested in you hearing what we have to say.

Personally speaking, I don't give a damn if Jawpr hears me or not. He's obviously made up his mind and I do respect him. I want to appeal to people who's minds are still open.

But I do enjoy your input Jawpr. Don't take anything I say to you personally, I don't even know you. You must be able to see how galling it is for someone like me though. I mean, you don't accept that there could be another way. Don't you think you might regret that in the future. I hope you don't, honestly.

Just one question though, if you'll respond. How do you feel about your President and his regime hi-jacking your principles in the name of war? Are you comfortable with that?

I hope not.

[Shadowraven]

acushla said:
I think ShadowRaven might be amused to learn how much Jews accept the notion of 'personal responsibility' Judaism is interesting on another point.
I didn't include Judaism when talking about that because I know where they stand. Like you, I've had a look at the other major religions and so I know enough to have an idea of what I do and don't like. You'll notice that I only mentioned Christianity when talking about responsibility.

Willow said:
You missed Wiccan :ninja:. Okay, perhaps not a *major* religion as such, but I am surprised that you didn't come across it.
You might be surprised to find out that it has become a major religion, just not an organized one. There are large groups in the U.S., Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, United Kingdom, and Europe. It is one of the fastest growing religions. You may not know about it though because, like I said, we don't advertise. You come to it on your own. You probably already know several people who are Wiccan (or Pagan), you just don't know it. Many don't stand out or talk about it. Part of that is because they get such a negative reaction from people who do find out, especially here in the U.S. from Christians. Part of it is because, like other folks, they feel it's no ones business but their own what they believe.

acushla said:
Above that it would be a simple truism to say that all religions accept the other religions... except for guess which one?
Which is another reason I have a problem with it, it breeds intolerance. If you don't believe what I do you're going to hell, The End. Wicca got the name of Devil Worshippers from fundamentalist Christian intolerance. I've had first-hand experience from them on that subject, and unfortunately for them, I don't back down from what I believe.

acushla said:
The thing is...as long as the Bible exists and there are people who believe that every word of it is true (we won't mention the little addition the Catholic church made sometime in the 12th Century...or all the gospels which were not included in the Bible for the simple reason that it didn't further the political ambitions of those who were deciding what made it in and what got left out.
You know it's funny how many Christians know nothing at all about this event. They know nothing about the College of Bishops that met at that time and decided what would get put into the bible and what would get left out. Odd way to treat what is supposed to be the word of God. It all the gospels and stories were from God what right did they have to edit it? The truth is that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of stories, written by men, that were put together in one book. Many of these storeis are as old as 3000+ years or so. Some were copied down from an older oral tradition. There are many theories as to where Christianity came from. One says it came from Mithraism, but if you look, that came from an older base. The idea I say as most likely is that it came from the Indus Basin near India. If you look at some of the places that Bible speaks about geographically, nowhere in the Middle East fits the bill, but the Indus Valley fits them nicely. Not to mention that Krishna and Christ are strikingly alike in name and story.

Mind you I'm not attacking Christianity, if it works for you that's great. I'm just telling what I don't like about it and presenting some facts.

But I'm with acushla here, I find the religion, and many of it's most ardent adherents, arrogant and intolerable. Only the moderates are reasonable and even they can be a problem at times.

acushla:
While I agree with much of what you said, I would like to add one thing.
Back off a little man, you do seem like you're attacking jawpr personally. I agree that he should stand up a little more for himself, but don't berate him so much. For one thing he may not be used to debating like you and I are.

[Shadowraven]

Rory said:
Just one question though, if you'll respond. How do you feel about your President and his regime hi-jacking your principles in the name of war? Are you comfortable with that?
I don't know about jawpr, but I can tell you now, you don't want to get me started on that subject. A lot of fundies (fundamentalist Christians) think he's the best thing since sliced bread. I personally would LIKE to slice him up in little pieces. He is not only the worst thing that ever happened to this country, he's the worst thing that could have happened to the world at this time in history. He's destructive, arrogant, and just plain dangerous. I believe that the world stands at a crossroads for it's future and he's blocking the way ahead for a better one. He's already allowed corporate America to hijack the U.S. government, and it's policies, and he's allowing them to rape us for their profit margins. It is hard for me to describe just how much I hate this man, and hating is NOT like me.

[rorythedog]

Maybe people don't know this but if you don't listen up.

In my country we have a great shame. It's called Bigotry. In my country it doesn't matter if you're black, yellow, red, Jewish, Hindu and probably Wicca too, though I haven't asked anyone lately. :cheerful: What's important here is whether you're Protestant or Catholic.

Both, you'll note, are Christian religions but you wouldn't know it. A bairn here goes to school at 5, and from that minute on they are segregated. All through school. They despise each other. Not all of them of course, but enough of a minority to make everybody else's life a misery.

On top of this, our 2 biggest football teams, Glasgow Celtic and Glasgow Rangers, are supported by these bigots. Every time these 2 teams meet, there's violence. Sometimes people die. Many are stabbed for supporting the other team. It was only in the 80's that the policy of not signing catholics was relaxed by Rangers. That's 100 years of institutional bigotry by the biggest supported club in Europe (for most of the time anyway).

My point is that all religion seems to do is divide people. I mean, Catholics and Protestants are supposed to be on the same side. Divide and Conquor!

As for Bush, I'll help you get rid of him. :ninja:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

One might wonder that 90% of all the wars that we've had are all someway related to differences in religion or are even the result of religious disputes. It's sad when you think about it. Ideally no one should start a war solely based on religious principles. That would save us a whole lot of misery.

[acushla]

acushla:

While I agree with much of what you said, I would like to add one thing.
Back off a little man, you do seem like you're attacking jawpr personally. I agree that he should stand up a little more for himself, but don't berate him so much. For one thing he may not be used to debating like you and I are.

I want everybody, especially jawpr, to clearly understand that it was never my intention to make my thoughts on Christianity and it's place on the world stage and how it appears to others who are not Christians, to be a personal attack on jawpr. And jawpr, I hope you are reading this. I tried to send you a personal message but you do not allow that to happen.

I was, however, fully aware of the ground I was treading on and I was just really hoping that jawpr would be able to read it in the spirit it was given. I left all types of disclaimers throughout the various pieces...the most poignant one being 'Try, try for one moment to put yourself in just one of those persons shoes. How does it look?' I also offered that my views ' I write this from the perspective of a neutral Historian...and nothing else.'

jawpr...these views exist whether they are mine or somebody else's. They exist. It's not who has the views which is important in the context of this discussion...what is important is the fact that these views exist...every bit as real as the views you bring into the discussion. It is the views that are being debated...not the people debating those views.

At the beginning of this thread it was clearly stated: 'You know Rex...contained in your post I see a very interesting idea. Religious discussion...not just a poll...but a discussion among those of us who would be genuinely interested in carrying on a dialog both to express and to learn things about what is at the core of the teachings of those other 'labels'.

A discussion among those of us who would be genuinely interested in carrying on a dialog both to express and to learn things about what is at the core of the teachings of those 'other' labels.

jawpr...do you think it would be helpful in any way to share with us exactly what motivated you to withdraw from the discussion? Could you accept my statement that in no way were any of my observations directed on a personal level at you. If I may, I am going to answer that question myself. No...you cannot accept that anything I was saying was not personal...because you interpret any shortcomings or criticism that somebody makes in regards to Christianity as a personal affront on yourself. I'm here to tell you that is not the way to view exchanges in a debate. This is a forum that gives you an opportunity to present your views and understandings and to refute those charges...as in a dialogue...each side stating a position to show that different positions exist. At the very least it allows each person to develop and refine points of view and partake in an exercise that they enjoy because in the end this exchange can have the effect of deepening your understanding of your own beliefs. (and if I may add just a little bit of humor based on something you said...hone your typing skills. :) )

ShadowRaven points out that perhaps you have not developed your skills at debating. If that is true (and I am not saying that they are true...I personally think you express your views quite well...or I wouldn't be taking the time to write this) then you will never develop those skills if you simply walk out of the debate. If you withdraw with the intention of taking some time to look over things that have been said and reflect and search within yourself to learn what you think an appropriate and meaningful response would be...well that's your reward and growth right there. Why...because now you are thinking, and when you have arrived at a place where you now feel ready to share these new ideas, this new learning, you return to the forum and put those thoughts to work and see how they hold up under the scrutiny of others. I am learning new things about myself writing this to you. For one thing I have never had to write anything like this and I have a sense of urgency that you do come back

Like many in this thread...I am genuinely interested in what you have to say...and if it seemed as if I was being hard or difficult or personal or anything of a negative nature I am truly sorry that I created a climate that caused you to think that. Truth be told...it was the last thing I wanted to happen. :heart:

[Shadowraven]

Rex_Mundi_Incarnit speaketh:
One might wonder that 90% of all the wars that we've had are all someway related to differences in religion or are even the result of religious disputes. It's sad when you think about it. Ideally no one should start a war solely based on religious principles. That would save us a whole lot of misery.

Actually Rex I don't think you're that far off. The crusades were ostensibly about religion. At least that's how they justified it, even if that isn't what it was really about. Looking back you'll see that many atrocities and even genocide was carried out in the name of religion. Now, I'm thinking about Christianity with the last examples, but other wars have occured over other religion's ideas as well. Islam comes to mind for one, Judaism for another. But Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all come out of the same base too. But I could also mention Buddhism, Hinduism, and many others. In fact, nearly all of the long established religions have had wars fought over their beliefs. Unfortunately for Christianity though, it has to take the lion's share. For one thing look at Northern Ireland, and rory's description of the bigotry where he lives. All because of the intolerance that religion breeds with any who disagree. I personally find it hard to understand why they can't just live and let live. Like Thomas Jefferson once said: "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." How true that is. It's too bad more people can't have that sort of attitude. The only reason I can think of for that reasoning is that they find it necessary for others to believe as they do. The more people they can get to believe as they do, the more it validates their own beliefs as right. They should try to be more secure in their own beliefs and leave the rest of us the hell alone!

[Roj]

I'm going to post only once in this thread and it's more for going on record than anything else. I generally do not discuss religion because it invariably leads to strife and pain amongst friends - and I do consider many in this community my friends.

This is more a general belief structure than anything else. I view it as a guideline and a work in progress that will likely continue until the moment when I am no longer capable of thinking.

I was raised a Catholic.

Time passes, things change, people grow.

I do believe in a supreme entity.

I no longer believe in any organized religion and have little use for dogma. I see it all as the fabrication of man (much of it for self-serving reasons) and most of it something that no self-respecting deity would involve itself with. Furthermore, I consider religion to be one of the greatest causes (if not the greatest) of pain, injustice and suffering that this planet has ever had the misfortune to experience. Too many reprehensible things have been done "in God's name", most of them driven by greed and power if not zealotry.

I consider the Bible an historical document that contains more than a few elements of allegory that were necessary to "explain" the unexplainable to a much less advanced civilization. It also contains an inordinate amount of common sense as well as what I consider a lot of rubbish, much of that a product of the ignorance of the times it was written in. I do not consider it infallible. It was written by humans and thus by definition is subject to error.

I have come to realize that "morality" is negotiable, subject to culture and has changed (and will continue to change) with the passage of time. In most cases, that's a good thing as it reflects the growing maturity, if only in baby steps, of humanity. I do not believe that it should be legislated - history has shown that such a course of action is ultimately self-defeating. In fact, whenever religion and government have ridden in the same cart, disaster invariably follows.

I don't believe in a single cycle lifetime - my facetious term for it is "we recycle" (yes, that does refer to the "blue box"). My personal feeling is that we do it until we learn the particular lesson that we are to learn and then move on to a new lesson, "improving" as we go.

I do believe in Karma - as rory said, it's real. I have reason to believe that said Karma isn't limited to one lifetime.

I do believe that the aforementioned "higher power" intervenes. There have been too many cases when I should have "had the biscuit" and inexplicably, beyond all hope of reprieve...

...I received one. I do not believe that a cry from the heart remains unheard, if only by others journeying along the same road.

I believe all living things contain personal unique energy or a "soul" if you will. I believe that soul should be respected and never denigrated or considered unequal to other so-called "souls".

I believe a man lived whose name was Jesus and that at the very least he taught a valuable philosophy of compassion and love. I think there were others who did the same. We should learn from the example of those people - it would make things easier for us all.

I don't believe there is "one true path to the shining light" so to speak and have a big problem with what I consider to be misplaced self-righteousness in that department. I do believe that all roads inevitably lead to the same destination and that everyone is entitled to their own road. If you think about it, in the end it's the journey and not the destination that matters, because that's what you look back on and learn from.

All of this (and more) was arrived at by observation and experience which some of you may have guessed are the driving forces behind how I learn throughout my life.

I have no wish to offend anyone by the above brief outline. It works for me - it may not work for you.

Be well...

[acushla]

I'm going to post only once in this thread and it's more for going on record than anything else. I generally do not discuss religion because it invariably leads to strife and pain amongst friends - and I do consider many in this community my friends.

This is more a general belief structure than anything else. I view it as a guideline and a work in progress that will likely continue until the moment when I am no longer capable of thinking.

I was raised a Catholic.

Time passes, things change, people grow.

I do believe in a supreme entity.

I no longer believe in any organized religion and have little use for dogma. I see it all as the fabrication of man (much of it for self-serving reasons) and most of it something that no self-respecting deity would involve itself with. Furthermore, I consider religion to be one of the greatest causes (if not the greatest) of pain, injustice and suffering that this planet has ever had the misfortune to experience. Too many reprehensible things have been done "in God's name", most of them driven by greed and power if not zealotry.

I consider the Bible an historical document that contains more than a few elements of allegory that were necessary to "explain" the unexplainable to a much less advanced civilization. It also contains an inordinate amount of common sense as well as what I consider a lot of rubbish, much of that a product of the ignorance of the times it was written in. I do not consider it infallible. It was written by humans and thus by definition is subject to error.

I have come to realize that "morality" is negotiable, subject to culture and has changed (and will continue to change) with the passage of time. In most cases, that's a good thing as it reflects the growing maturity, if only in baby steps, of humanity. I do not believe that it should be legislated - history has shown that such a course of action is ultimately self-defeating. In fact, whenever religion and government have ridden in the same cart, disaster invariably follows.

I don't believe in a single cycle lifetime - my facetious term for it is "we recycle" (yes, that does refer to the "blue box"). My personal feeling is that we do it until we learn the particular lesson that we are to learn and then move on to a new lesson, "improving" as we go.

I do believe in Karma - as rory said, it's real. I have reason to believe that said Karma isn't limited to one lifetime.

I do believe that the aforementioned "higher power" intervenes. There have been too many cases when I should have "had the biscuit" and inexplicably, beyond all hope of reprieve...

...I received one. I do not believe that a cry from the heart remains unheard, if only by others journeying along the same road.

I believe all living things contain personal unique energy or a "soul" if you will. I believe that soul should be respected and never denigrated or considered unequal to other so-called "souls".

I believe a man lived whose name was Jesus and that at the very least he taught a valuable philosophy of compassion and love. I think there were others who did the same. We should learn from the example of those people - it would make things easier for us all.

I don't believe there is "one true path to the shining light" so to speak and have a big problem with what I consider to be misplaced self-righteousness in that department. I do believe that all roads inevitably lead to the same destination and that everyone is entitled to their own road. If you think about it, in the end it's the journey and not the destination that matters, because that's what you look back on and learn from.

All of this (and more) was arrived at by observation and experience which some of you may have guessed are the driving forces behind how I learn throughout my life.

I have no wish to offend anyone by the above brief outline. It works for me - it may not work for you.

Be well...

Ditto.

[Shadowraven]

Roj said:
A lot...

Wow, that was good. I don't think I could have put it any better myself. I agree with everything you said, with one exception.

That is on recycling lifetimes, I'm sure you know that it is central in several Far Eastern religions. I want to believe in it, and I think that it is possible. However, as to it's truth, I'm still on the fence.

I also believe that the universe may occasionally take a direct hand in your life. But that may just be it's way of evening things out, for karmic reasons.

BTW, I don't know about anyone else, but it's hard to offend me in these discussions. I don't know if I've just got a thick skin or what. But, I try not to take comments made here personally, as they are opinions other folks honestly hold. But you are right Roj, some people do get upset when presented with any challenge to their beliefs. Even if it is not meant as a personal attack.

[Sheepeh]

Please, please don't take offence, anyone, because none is meant...but after seeing this kinda stuff, I wonder how any can think "God" is as damn nice as he's meant to be if He caused this to happen to one of his "top people".

Concern as Pope's health worsens

The Pope has been fed through a nasal tube
Pope John Paul II is suffering from a very high fever caused by a urinary tract infection, the Vatican has said in a statement.

Spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said the 84-year-old pontiff was receiving "appropriate antibiotic therapy".

Another senior Vatican official said later the Pope's his condition had stabilised but it was still serious.

The Pope was also given the last rites - the Catholic sacrament for the sick and dying, unconfirmed reports say.

The emergency department chief at Rome's Gemelli hospital said on Thursday the Pope would not be taken to hospital for the time being.

Small groups of faithful have gathered at St Peter's Square in Rome to pray for the Pope's speedy recovery.

However, the mood in the Vatican is sombre, the BBC's David Willey in Rome reports.

Prelates are openly expressing pessimism about the possibility of the Pope ever resuming the guidance of his one billion-strong church, our correspondent says.

The pontiff is being fed through a nasal tube to aid his recovery from throat surgery last month, the Vatican said on Wednesday.

The Pope had appeared briefly at the window of his Vatican apartment on Easter Sunday to bless the faithful, but was not able to speak.

It was the first time during his 26-year pontificate that the Pope delegated the main Easter ceremonies to his cardinals.

'Lost weight'

Unconfirmed reports say the Pope has lost a lot of weight since his operation.

He developed breathing troubles and has difficulty in swallowing as a result of the progress of Parkinson's Disease, an incurable condition from which he has been suffering for nearly a decade.

The Pope's private doctor Renato Buzzetti is in charge of his medical treatment in his private apartment at the Vatican.

So far this year the Pope has had two spells in hospital where he received treatment for breathing problems and underwent an operation on his throat.

[BALTY]

I believe a man lived whose name was Jesus and that at the very least he taught a valuable philosophy of compassion and love. I think there were others who did the same. We should learn from the example of those people - it would make things easier for us all.

I don't believe there is "one true path to the shining light" so to speak and have a big problem with what I consider to be misplaced self-righteousness in that department. I do believe that all roads inevitably lead to the same destination and that everyone is entitled to their own road. If you think about it, in the end it's the journey and not the destination that matters, because that's what you look back on and learn from.


Be well...

I too was raised Catholic ( Still am )

I sometimes think that it would be better for those believers in "Jesus is God" (like me of course), if we just saw him as a man only. By that I mean... As you say, at " very least he taught a valuable philosophy of compassion and love."

Yet most children growing up in the faith probably think (as I did) ... "well of course he was good, he's God. I'd be good too if I knew I was God" attitude.

I guess it’s like we all just follow along and don't really think of the greatness and hardships of the MAN. [ Kinda like a second or third child in a family- you just follow what the first one does, and not see things for yourself... Sad really].

Anyway… So much of the true heart of Jesus gets left behind, and shoved under the rug because of that. Governments (like in the USA) keeps taking away these great sayings and quotes that Jesus, Moses, etc. made from public places because of the religious aspect of it all. But what about the good intentions no matter who quoted them? Even our Muslim friends don't like quoting Jesus it seems, even though officially he was another prophet in their book. When they do, it’s usually in question to Christian behavior in the western world, in a hypocritical way. All this because it’s the BASIS of our RELIGION, and not just admiring a great man, (or men). Ours also is in contrast to their religion, but that’s another story for another time.

So, I commend you on laying out your position, and can see you are a good, higher thinking man. Jesus should be proud of that!

God Bless! Doh! sorry!







P.S. of course you know... we were all descendants of Ape, mixed with Extraterrestrials! (arrr arrr ...) ahhhhhh! they're comin' for me!

(LOL)

Keep the faith~
Doh!
:robot:

[BALTY]

Please, please don't take offence, anyone, because none is meant...but after seeing this kinda stuff, I wonder how any can think "God" is as damn nice as he's meant to be if He caused this to happen to one of his "top people".
None taken... But just try to keep in mind that above all else, God gave feel will!
God tries to never alter (No Pun). If he did, how can he truely tell those good souls, from bad. Remember... he made a mistake with Satin! As perfect as he is... still...

:) It's in the plan~

Long live the pope! :beer:

[Roj]

Please, please don't take offence, anyone, because none is meant...but after seeing this kinda stuff, I wonder how any can think "God" is as damn nice as he's meant to be if He caused this to happen to one of his "top people".

I'm going to break my own rule and answer your question with two more.

Why do people assume that God (insert supreme deity name here) has anything to do with what happens in the universe on a day-to-day basis?

Why blame that entity when things go wrong?

If you read the contract as outlined in at least one of the books purported to be the words of wisdom of that entity, it has a clause in it called Free Will. I'd hazard a guess that it means "You're on your own to make of life what you wish - I'm out of it".

Of course there's the additional clause which says "if you need help, call". That maps directly to my "no cry from the heart remains unheard". However, as a further example, I for one don't always respond when someone calls my name.

Just my two cents, seasonally adjusted for inflation.

[Roj]

God Bless! Doh! sorry!

Thank you - and don't be sorry.

I still say that.

And mean it.

:)

PS: As an interesting aside, I find it kind of neat that you are exactly six days older than I am.

[Sheepeh]

I'm going to break my own rule and answer your question with two more.

Why do people assume that God (insert supreme deity name here) has anything to do with what happens in the universe on a day-to-day basis?

Why blame that entity when things go wrong?

If you read the contract as outlined in at least one of the books purported to be the words of wisdom of that entity, it has a clause in it called Free Will. I'd hazard a guess that it means "You're on your own to make of life what you wish - I'm out of it".

Of course there's the additional clause which says "if you need help, call". That maps directly to my "no cry from the heart remains unheard". However, as a further example, I for one don't always respond when someone calls my name.

Just my two cents, seasonally adjusted for inflation.

Well if God made everything and God never makes mistakes, he invented the disease in the first place, deliberately. Nice chap. Also, I'm kinda sure the Pope has been praying as well as hundreds of others. If God wanted to show he exists, this is one guy he should be helping - if he doesn't allow those who do as much for him as the Pope does at the very least a quick and peaceful death, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Seems like God made the planet and just stuck a big YMMV sticker on it. And then proceeded to make tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanoes kill people. Why design those in to the planet if you can make anything you desire?

[Roj]

Well if God made everything and God never makes mistakes, he invented the disease in the first place, deliberately. Nice chap. Also, I'm kinda sure the Pope has been praying as well as hundreds of others. If God wanted to show he exists, this is one guy he should be helping - if he doesn't allow those who do as much for him as the Pope does at the very least a quick and peaceful death, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Seems like God made the planet and just stuck a big YMMV sticker on it. And then proceeded to make tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanoes kill people. Why design those in to the planet if you can make anything you desire?

I never claimed that a supreme being made everything, nor did I claim that said being never made mistakes. I did claim that we're on our own and I see no evidence that we aren't. The universe pretty much creates its own chaos and randomness and that includes microbes and natural weather events, plate tectonics, etc.. Those are the natural occurrances of the ongoing process that makes the universe tick - why assume that a deity would have a direct hand in that?

I further submit that the primary source of hope and determination lies within oneself - each of us has to step up to the plate and deal with it. If we're in the game, we gotta play.

Also, why assume that a being must prove it exists for any reason, least of all so people can believe in it? You have no tangible proof that *I* exist - for all you know, I could be a really advanced AI project running out of DND Ottawa.

If the universe has free will, that means it has the capability of producing adverse effects as well as positive ones - from our perspective. From the perspective of the universe, our viewpoint is likely irrelevant if it is even considered at all. After all, why should it care? It's the universe.

WE are the ones who care. WE are the ones who ascribe emotions, hopes, dreams and logic to events. And WE do that so that WE can comfort ourselves with reasons that WE can understand.

WE have no one else to blame, no target for our frustration and can't quite believe that we aren't important enough to be protected so what are we going to do? Blame the being that started the ball rolling eons ago for a tsunami today? Why not blame the rock that compressed, shifted and caused the underwater earthquake back when it was formed millennia ago? That's just about as logical and effective.

I think Forest Gump said it best:

"S**t Happens."

How WE deal with it is what matters.

All that being said, I think I'm going to go back to lurker mode again as far as this thread is concerned. I've broken enough of my own rules and besides, I'm in the mood to listen to Patrick Stewart narrate the sequel to Rick Wakeman's "Journey To The Centre Of The Earth". :)

Cheers!

[BALTY]

Well if God made everything and God never makes mistakes, he invented the disease in the first place, deliberately. Nice chap. Also, I'm kinda sure the Pope has been praying as well as hundreds of others. If God wanted to show he exists, this is one guy he should be helping - if he doesn't allow those who do as much for him as the Pope does at the very least a quick and peaceful death, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Seems like God made the planet and just stuck a big YMMV sticker on it. And then proceeded to make tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanoes kill people. Why design those in to the planet if you can make anything you desire?
Wolf in Sheepeh cloths!

Doesn't it feel good to argue about it though? I mean what if you didn't have LIFE to worry about?

We are not in heaven, we are here for the journey to heaven.

I never blame God. Easy for me though I haven't had it all that tough. Modest income, good family, and still have dreams of more. [ essential for me for real living - you know; something to strive towards, and look forward to.] Some have it easy, some have it hard. Those who are first shall be last, and versa visa. But God doesn't just step in (I feel) for every want and need. He does have mercy though.
He doesn't necessarily favor the Pope over you or me by default! The Pope earns his way - through faith - as we all do/should.
And as far as "tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanoes that kill people" We are part of the animal world. Sht does happen. He kicked us out of Eden, and it's been down hill ever since.


Signed,
Yet not impossible, to get through the gates~

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

He kicked us out of Eden, and it's been down hill ever since.

I wouldn't say that. From the first procaryote that merged with another to form multicellular life, then acquatic life, then terrestrial life, insects, amphibians, reptiles (dinosaurs), to mammals, to us is a huge increase in complexity against all odds of entropy. Conscious intelligent life is something the world never dreamed of, yet evolution of species has continuously proven to us that lifeforms become more and more sophisticated through time. One might even argue that now evolution is taken over by humanity because we almost control it now. We have to tools and medicine to keep each other alive even though most of us probably would not survive in nature w/o any tools. From the dawn of mankind we have made our life easy by domesticating animals such as pigs and goats. It gave us spare time which mankind used to reflect about its position in the universe. Other creatures simply remained too busy hunting/grazing. You might also note that it is the carnivores/omnivores that develop intellect, not the vegetarians, although that doesnt apply to humans anymore. The answers to this are that no longer our genes play an important role in the survival of our species but memes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme). I do not see how a God is needed in the process. Everything flows from one thing to another. Evolution of life is truely a remarkable thing.

[acushla]

I'm going to break my own rule and answer your question with two more.

Why do people assume that God (insert supreme deity name here) has anything to do with what happens in the universe on a day-to-day basis?

Why blame that entity when things go wrong?

If you read the contract as outlined in at least one of the books purported to be the words of wisdom of that entity, it has a clause in it called Free Will. I'd hazard a guess that it means "You're on your own to make of life what you wish - I'm out of it".

Of course there's the additional clause which says "if you need help, call". That maps directly to my "no cry from the heart remains unheard". However, as a further example, I for one don't always respond when someone calls my name.

Just my two cents, seasonally adjusted for inflation.

All right...I've debated for some time in this thread whether or not I was going to write what amounts to the most personal experience of my life...and your post here Roj inspires me to share it.

Let's begin by saying that I would be very comfortable and in fact want to make an argument that there is no God. Then proceed with lots of intellectual existential reasoning. No doubt I would...but you see...I can't. Oh I could if I wanted to...the problem with that is that I would be a liar.

Just a little over 12 years ago I had an addiction that was totally full blown and out of control. An addiction that was costing me at least $850.00 a day. Friends who were using with me would tell me to slow down. Suppliers would purposely make me wait for days for fear that I would be found dead and the product would be traced back to them. Every day the pit I was digging to Hell was getting deeper and deeper. Whereas people had always enjoined me to perhaps look at my situation and try to do something about my 'addiction' I would laugh and reply "I'm not addicted, I am just having fun...I can quit anytime I want.'

Unless you've been me you have no idea the feeling is when you've made a decision to quit and find out you can't. People I knew began to cross over on the other side of the street when they saw me approaching...all my friends abandoned me save one which meant of course that I only had one friend the entire time...but even he was unable to help. I had tried EVERYTHING...rehap, meetings etc. etc. until one day I was so utterly shattered and completely broken with absolutely no idea of what to do or if there was even anything I could do...I was finished. Everything I could think of and everything I tried ended in worse failure than the plan before...and I had reached the end...bankrupt of any idea or notion. It was in that condition that, with nothing left to do, with no foresight, I found myself literally going on my knees and in a state of uncontrollable sobs and wailing to the deepest pain I had ever known I said ' God, I don't know if you exist or not but if you do I am asking you to please, please help me.'

Well guess what...from that precise instant of asking as I got up off my knees I know that my prayer had not only been heard it had been answered. Something inexplicable in any normal way of understanding events happened between getting on my knees and my getting off my knees.

What strikes me as interesting is that how often people who knew me then or people who hear the story for the first time want to tell me that it wasn't God who helped me...it was I who helped myself. That I should be proud of what I did. I was simply 'ready' to change. It's funny how tempting it is to try to take that altitute...but I simply cannot because I know the truth. I had tried EVERYTHING, nothing was working...I had reached a point that the ONLY thing left for me to do was to get on my knees...and the moment I did that and asked a God whom I did not even know existed or not...I received help.

The part of Roj's post that made me decide to share this was this line: "You're on your own to make of life what you wish - I'm out of it".

That's exactly how I ended up viewing my experience. It is as if God said...OK...you asked for help...here's the help...do with it whatever you see fit. The help was revealed in the asking and by the time I had risen off my knees the help had been given. My first step upon standing was my own to make. You're on your own.

I've thought about denying this story...but I always come back to the same conclusion. God didn't deny my cry for help...why would I deny his intervention?

The best thing I can do for God is to live each day remembering why I have this day to live and to show my gratitude by my actions. The best way I can show my gratitude is to share this story with others.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Yet i dont understand how God must be involved and if he was then it is a very cheap exuse to just go and pray to be relieved of an addiction. I cannot and will not believe this. No offense mate.

[acushla]

Yet i dont understand how God must be involved and if he was then it is a very cheap exuse to just go and pray to be relieved of an addiction. I cannot and will not believe this. No offense mate.

Trust me Rex...absolutely none taken. You should have heard some of the things people have said. All I do is smile inside...because I'm still here to be able to smile inside. I don't give a rats behind as to what people think about it. I tell it as a story...my story. I don't present it as proof of anything. I don't present it as a reason for you to reexamine your own beliefs...as long as your not trying to kill me I could care less what your beliefs are (not you specifically...the broad general 'your').

The funny thing is I am not certain how I would respond if I was not me and somebody told me the story. Then I realize it doesn't matter how I would respond because the story is not being told to generate a response. It's just one story, my story, telling my beliefs and how I came by them.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Respect mate. So what did happen after you prayed?

[acushla]

Respect mate. So what did happen after you prayed?

I wish I could give an answer...I wish I knew...but I don't. All I know is that between the act of getting on my knees and praying and getting off my knees something had happened. I was not the same person. Do not think of this as an instant cure...it was...but mostly it wasn't...if you know what I mean. It could come down to something as simple as 'God helped me' or something as deep and complex as the break up of the ego and self-reliance and the declaration of defeat and surrender...the realization that I needed help because I could not help myself...I was forced to turn to something other than myself because relying on my self and my decisions had gotten me to the place where I was...so obviously that didn't work and in desperation and after having exhausted all other options and now with no other choices available to me, I got on my knees and asked a God whom I did not know existed or not, to help me. God helped me.' Take your pick. I really don't know Rex...I'm not even certain if I need to know. All I do know is that my life turned around in that instant and the path I walked on when I got up off my knees was a different path from the one that had led me to getting on my knees.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Even though im an atheist, bear in mind that i dont view praying as a waste of time. Who knows it may be a very powerful mental cure. At any rate, good to hear that you managed to rid yourself of the addiction. I never even touched a sigarette in my life and dont plan to do so. Curiousity is a good thing, but we should always be cautious.

EDIT:Dont confuse what i say here with that i previously stated about praying. Here im taking a different point of view. -> The scientific one. ;)

[acushla]

Even though im an atheist, bear in mind that i dont view praying as a waste of time. Who knows it may be a very powerful mental cure.

I'd pretty well have to agree with that...worked for me.

[Shadowraven]

I've read a lot here about people's experiences and their beliefs. I find all of it interesting because it helps fill a tapestry of life experiences I can learn a great deal from.

I do believe that we are pretty much on our own, most of the time. The universe generally could care less about us individually. To it, we are just another part of it, but a feeling part. I believe it is also true that when enough feeling is put into prayer, we can effect a response. Even from an indifferent, and neutral, world. The world itself is filled with a vibrant life force. I can feel it when I meditate on it. It fills me with a sense of well-being and wonder. It is not inherently good or inimical, but I do believe it is mostly postive. I feel that prayer allows you to tune yourself to it enough, to actually influence it

Witchcraft is about doing just that. While I'm NOT a witch myself, I've known some that could influence the world around them. I don't mean in the traditional sense that Hollywood or TV portrays it, it is much more subtle than that. Witchcraft, from what I've seen, is just concentrated prayer.

Maybe it sounds like I'm contradicting some of what I've said before by saying prayer can work at all. But this is the first time I've had to crystalize my beliefs into a coherent explanation for others. My wife (who is Catholic) hasn't even received a full explanation yet, but she respects it. She even tries to help me observe my sabbats with me. Like I told acushla, it's hard to give a short explanation of Wicca and I may fall down while trying to do so. But some of what Roj and sheepeh have said somewhat mirrors what I said.

People who conceive of a good God cannot understand why He allows bad things to happen when He could stop them. They often make themselves feel better by saying He has a plan. I find it so much more logical to just say no one has it in for us. Things just happen. We just happen to be in the way when they do, often because humans choose to live in a danger zone. Then they wonder why something bad happened to them, when in reality, it was inevitable that disaster would strike them eventually. That doesn't make it any less tragic. But it isn't the fault of any higher being. There is no reason for disasters. They are just a natural part a chaotic, ever changing, universe. After all, it is those same disasters that helped to create us. Otherwise, dinosaurs would be exploring space now.

[BALTY]

People who conceive of a good God cannot understand why He allows bad things to happen when He could stop them. They often make themselves feel better by saying He has a plan. I find it so much more logical to just say no one has it in for us. Things just happen. We just happen to be in the way when they do, often because humans choose to live in a danger zone. Then they wonder why something bad happened to them, when in reality, it was inevitable that disaster would strike them eventually. That doesn't make it any less tragic. But it isn't the fault of any higher being. There is no reason for disasters. They are just a natural part a chaotic, ever changing, universe. After all, it is those same disasters that helped to create us. Otherwise, dinosaurs would be exploring space now.

Who here, can tell me what the universe is?
Hello!
Anybody?


Now who can tell me what is on the other side of the universe?
Is there another side?
Science tells us that it is expanding.
Into what?
What's beyond? that?
Nothingness? What's nothingness? The universe can't expand into it if it's not there!
Than it's not nothingness. It's part of the universe.
So does it ever end?
People tell me what is was before. Big matter that exploded billions of years ago, and is still expanding, eventually collapsing back to it original self. Hard to imagine the time it'll take. Hard to perceive how long it's taken so far.

God, just think!

I feel he does have a plan.

But, don't mistake this as a detailed blueprint for each of us. As like ... Johnny gets this bad life, and Mary gets this good life. Now let's watch how they deal with it! (Like Playing God, as opposed to being God).

No.

I wrote a while back about the concept of time, and how different groups of people conquered different lands, intermixing with the locals, yah da yah da yah da. For us as a people, the concept of time is little understood. Yet some of us can partially perceive it to a point if we really study it. With God there really isn't time. Not as we perceive it (I feel). Just like this...
I can understand to a point that God will always be. In human understanding of always Will Be… like making an item, that is so tough, you can't destroy it. (I don't know what kind of item that could be, ha ha ). but at least it's perceivable. Now think of God never having a “beginning” – “always was” as they say! You can't.

Faith is what your left with. Intellectuality sometimes gets in the way.
People for eons doubted an existence of God. Nothing new. I too sometimes wonder. I wonder why the extreme religious say you are doomed if you don't totally accept Jesus and Him only! And wars between religious states (or is it really for other reasons, in the name of God, as an inspirational rallying point for the soldiers in some cases?). I digress...


In words of wise men...
In life, their are two path we can go by, but in the long run, there's still time change the road your on!
-In case you don't know.
The pipers calling you to join him. ;) ~

[acushla]

I was raised a Catholic.

I'm sorry to hear that.

The comedian Bill Mahler talks about being raised Catholic and how later in life he came to understand what he was taught as a Catholic was not at all representative of who he had become and what he believed now. Yet in spite of all of that understanding he found that he still could not make love to a woman on Christmas Day.

[Willow of Oz]

I wouldn't say that. From the first procaryote that merged with another to form multicellular life, then acquatic life, then terrestrial life, insects, amphibians, reptiles (dinosaurs), to mammals, to us is a huge increase in complexity against all odds of entropy. Conscious intelligent life is something the world never dreamed of, yet evolution of species has continuously proven to us that lifeforms become more and more sophisticated through time. One might even argue that now evolution is taken over by humanity because we almost control it now. We have to tools and medicine to keep each other alive even though most of us probably would not survive in nature w/o any tools. From the dawn of mankind we have made our life easy by domesticating animals such as pigs and goats. It gave us spare time which mankind used to reflect about its position in the universe. Other creatures simply remained too busy hunting/grazing. You might also note that it is the carnivores/omnivores that develop intellect, not the vegetarians, although that doesnt apply to humans anymore. The answers to this are that no longer our genes play an important role in the survival of our species but memes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme). I do not see how a God is needed in the process. Everything flows from one thing to another. Evolution of life is truely a remarkable thing.

Hear hear.
Reminds me, I should finish off that Richard Dawkins book I started last year.

It's probably worth noting that whilst we've started screwing around with the natural evolutionary processes already as you say above, things are going to get pretty hairy pretty quick. Within the next 25 years or so I'd expect to see significant amounts of work done in targetting drugs specifically to the patient; the development of designer babies; modification of adult genomes; limited but important work done on chimeras, including human ones; AI, or significant progress towards one; further melding of humankind and software; augmented humans (basically through the methods listed previously). What does this add up to? A lot of potential, both good and bad. If you start making mistakes with the human race that don't show up for a generation, things could be pretty screwed for us. We've gone from the weak dying out to the weak being saved, to the weak being made strong and the strong becoming a superspecies.
Mankind is trying to show some leadership potential...

[Willow of Oz]

All right...I've debated for some time in this thread whether or not I was going to write what amounts to the most personal experience of my life...and your post here Roj inspires me to share it.


Thanks for sharing that, Acushla. Glad you've kicked the habit and are here with us.

I've gone cold turkey on Slashdot - clean for nearly 7 days now. Probably not quite in the same ballpark.

[Roj]

I'm sorry to hear that.

The comedian Bill Mahler talks about being raised Catholic and how later in life he came to understand what he was taught as a Catholic was not at all representative of who he had become and what he believed now. Yet in spite of all of that understanding he found that he still could not make love to a woman on Christmas Day.

I can't resist (damn you!):

Believe me, I don't have that problem. :) :) :)

[BALTY]

I can't resist (damn you!):


Oh, Roj... You know you love conversing about God and Politics!
hehe! :silly:

and sex and drugs...

[madjo]

Thanks for sharing that, Acushla. Glad you've kicked the habit and are here with us.

I've gone cold turkey on Slashdot - clean for nearly 7 days now. Probably not quite in the same ballpark.
Heh I've kicked my /. addiction (although I never posted much there), but have formed a new one.. lurking on webforums :) argh!




I think religion is highly personal, and I think that what that religion means to him means something else for someone else, even within a certain religion.

[Shadowraven]

Balty said:
Who here, can tell me what the universe is?
Hello! Anybody?

Balty, you can believe me when I say I don't even pretend to have the answer to that question. It would be arrogant of me to assume that I do. To say that there is only one possible answer and that's it. I just have the answer that works for me and, that I find, fits all the facts available to my limited human mind. If your answer works for you, that's great. There is just no way it could ever work for me.

It was quite a stretch for me to even finally admit that there may be any kind of God. I obviously still don't believe in one in the Christian sense of the term. The second decade of my life truly sucked most of the time. Maybe that had a negative effect on me and how I view the world. I certainly hated people enough. It took me a long time to get over that and, with my wife's help and lot a work, I finally did. My dad came out of a German Baptist family, my mom from a mostly Irish one. Neither were what you'd call strongly religious, but they tried to instill that in me. It didn't take though. I'm an avid reader of history and think very logically. Consequently I found it hard to believe in a God. I found Christianity to have too long a history of atrocities to even pretend that I could follow it's teachings. There is too much intolerance there. The problem is that the basic message is good, but the stuff that goes with it isn't. You will find that many other religions don't have the intolerance problem to the degree that Christianity does. That doen't mean I think all, or even most, Christians suck. After all my wife is Catholic. I just think that the ones that take the Bible too literally have, and are, a problem.

aushla:

I think the story you told was great. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it. They didn't experience it, you did. Far too many people live feeling something is missing in their lives, but they don't know what it is. I think that is a spiritual dimension that's missing. Our culture is very sterile and doesn't encourage introspection. I'm just glad that you could share your story with us and that you found a way out from a bad end. I've seen too many people destroy themselves, and those around them, with drug abuse. I see the sad results of it everyday. I've had two inmates die from having finally destroyed their bodies with years of abuse. They were completely used up by that time and looked it. They'd come in many times before and were unhappy people, but they couldn't make themselves stop. I am so very glad that you were able to pull yourself out of that, no matter how it happened. I'm truly am happy for you. Like Willow said, thanks for sharing that story with us. You've got our support.

Willow & Rex:
Hear hear.
Reminds me, I should finish off that Richard Dawkins book I started last year.

I agree with you guys. I just don't see where a God is even necessary for the evolutionary process. Given the amount of time involved it is very easy to see how, even we, could come about by trial and error.

Some folks have tried to argue, scientifically, that there hasn't been enough time. That is based on what they think we now know. But science recently got another wake-up call on how little we still understand about genetics. You may have heard about the experiment where they were took two parent plants with damaged genes and tried to create offspring from them. They ended up creating one with undamaged genes. That is not what they were trying to do, they were studying something completely different. However, it has caused an enormous stir in the scientific community. They are trying to understand how a perfectly normal plant can come out of damaged genes. There must be some self-correcting mechanism in place with a basic blueprint of what should be there. For that reason alone I think it shows that we shouldn't be genetically engineering anything. Much less the food we eat or people's kids. If you want to experiment to see how the mechanisms involved work, great. Just don't try to make products for us to consume out of them, until you know all the conseqeunces of your meddling.

[Roj]

Oh, Roj... You know you love conversing about God and Politics!
hehe! :silly:

and sex and drugs...

Nah - just innuendo. :) :) :)

[Willow of Oz]

Balty said:
Who here, can tell me what the universe is?
Hello! Anybody?


~ 42

[Todd The Kiwi]

As for your 'rule'...it just might be the reason there is so little understanding and tolerance in our world today.

Now go play.i believe i said

"isn't there some general 'rule' about never discussing -
race, religion, politics, sex or browsers in civilized company"

not

"there is a general 'rule' about never discussing -
race, religion, politics, sex or browsers in civilized company"

and it's not mine it's just what i've heard.

can i "go play" again ? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/toddthekiwi/drool.gif

[Shadowraven]

Never liked that rule much myself. Even though I sometimes follow it. Depends on the company.

I always figured that you will never be exposed to different points of view if you don't discuss them. The trick is to not let yourself become offended when your beliefs are challenged or questioned. I like being challenged. Without discussion, or learning, there is no growth.

I originally started this thread to answer a question from acushla. Now it's turned into a religious discussion. Do I regret that? No. I've found what other people have had to say fascinating. I always like to hear other opinions and I often learn something from them. I try not to let my own bias close my ears to other points of view. I personally never get offended by an honest opinion, and if a comment is designed to be offensive, I ignore it. I feel sorry for anyone that has to turn a discussion into a personal attack. Happily it appears that no one has done that here, much. Smart people.

[rorythedog]

Never liked that rule much myself. Even though I sometimes follow it. Depends on the company.

I always figured that you will never be exposed to different points of view if you don't discuss them. The trick is to not let yourself become offended when your beliefs are challenged or questioned. I like being challenged. Without discussion, or learning, there is no growth.

I originally started this thread to answer a question from acushla. Now it's turned into a religious discussion. Do I regret that? No. I've found what other people have had to say fascinating. I always like to hear other opinions and I often learn something from them. I try not to let my own bias close my ears to other points of view. I personally never get offended by an honest opinion, and if a comment is designed to be offensive, I ignore it. I feel sorry for anyone that has to turn a discussion into a personal attack. Happily it appears that no one has done that here, much. Smart people.


Agreed!

[Shadowraven]

Agreed!

Look rory, you just became a Boeing Airliner with this post. #777.

Sorry, I just have to be goofy!

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Have any of you religious guys done prayers for the pope who has now passed away? (Lol it be impossible not to notice given the media attention ;)). I think he did some very good things against communism. Pityfully i know very little else what he did in his life time other than the pure devotion to God and Christ. It would be rather a shame to tell him that there is nothing after life tho, just death. That would be the atheistic point of view.

[rorythedog]

Unfortunately He, and his brethren, are also partly responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa due to his Church's insistence that contraception is evil. :devil:

[jawpr]

I would love to explain the Christian faith to the point that every one here could understand it but as you know, in this forum there are many completely different so called forms of religion which means it would be impossible for me to do so. I feel like the very best thing I can do in that regard is to recomend to anyone who is serious about wanting to understand what the Christian faith really is, is to point you to the authorizied King James version of "The Bible' . For those who really want to know, it fully explains who the real true God is, the beginning of all things, things past,present and future, where we all came from, why we are where we are, our relationship to Him, How we are to live our lives, where we are headed and why, who Jesus really is, why He had to go to Calvary, Where He is now, where we will spend eternity, God's simple plan of Salvation, How we can change our eternal destiny, Things past,present and future. It leaves no question unanswered. The Only book I have ever read that is ALIVE.
I'm sorry to say that not every one that says they Christians are. The Bible explains how you can know them. I might add one other thing. The Bible is of no private interpetation. It was Spiritually written and CAN ONLY be Spiritually interperted which simply means that only one who has excepted Christ as His personal Savior {at which the time the Holy Ghost comes into his life for the express purpose of leading and guiding him into all truths) can understand the true meaning of the words contained therein. The greatest minds on this earth can read it and to them it is a book of mass contraditions when actually there is not a single contradition in all the Bible. Every word is true from beginning to end. All scripture must fit together and magnify each other, if you are to get the true meaning.



I just wanted to say that I did not drop out of this thread because of being offended in any way from any of the remarks that were made. We all have different beliefs so what any one of us believes is going to be what another is against in part or completely. Especially the Christian faith which is believing in one God, one creation. one Heaven, one Hell, one Savior, one Bible with only one way to understand it, one plan of Salvation, one hope for mankind, one Beginning, one End, to name a few. It's easy to understand why many are offended by it. It is a divider, a seperater. You either accept it or reject it - your choice. If you reject it, more than likely you will be offended by it's teachings. That usually results in arguments. I personally thought that it was starting to create an atmosphere for that and I just felt it would be best if I refrained from taking it any farther on my part. One went as far as to apoligize to me if he had offended me and I appreciate and accept the apoligy but it was not necessary. I was not offended. I did not 'run home and hide'. I believe in trying to use wisdom in all things.
I must apoligize to each one of you, not for what I believe and stand for, but because I should have known better than to try to explain the Christian faith here because it is impossible to explain without contradicting or offending people of other faiths and could only open a door for arguments, given the present circumstances. I want no part of that.
Another reason is the fact that I type so poorly. That in itself makes it very hard to carry on a conversation and express myself in the way I would like to. I love to have a friendly oral discussion but trying to carry on one by typing is over my head - way over my head!
Hope you understand!

[madjo]

I just wanted to say that I did not drop out of this thread because of being offended in any way from any of the remarks that were made. We all have different beliefs so what any one of us believes is going to be what another is against in part or completely.
For this a healthy discussion (as I see this one) is a good one, so that we can get understanding between eachother. :)

Especially the Christian faith which is believing in one God, one creation. one Heaven, one Hell, one Savior, one Bible with only one way to understand it, one plan of Salvation, one hope for mankind, one Beginning, one End, to name a few. It's easy to understand why many are offended by it. It is a divider, a seperater. You either accept it or reject it - your choice. If you reject it, more than likely you will be offended by it's teachings. That usually results in arguments. I know the Christian faith.. I have been educated on a catholic primary school (though I am a protestant) (even learned their Hail Mary's (which the protestants don't do... they don't celebrate Mary) and their version of 'Our Father' (which is different from the Protestants), and it is far from black and white.. there is a lot of gray in between it. Indeed 1 bible but dozens of translations and interpretations.

Another reason is the fact that I type so poorly. That in itself makes it very hard to carry on a conversation and express myself in the way I would like to. I love to have a friendly oral discussion but trying to carry on one by typing is over my head - way over my head!
Hope you understand!
But I do understand that you have trouble typing out what you want to say. :) I'm dutch, and english is only my second language, so it is kinda hard for me too. :)

[acushla]

Heh I've kicked my /. addiction (although I never posted much there), but have formed a new one.. lurking on webforums :) argh!




I think religion is highly personal, and I think that what that religion means to him means something else for someone else, even within a certain religion.

Part of the problem with addictions is that it is an aspect of the personality, and so not limited to just one thing. I recognize within myself other addidictions...but none of them are about to kill me. Lurking on webforums for an addict should be welcomed!

[acushla]

One went as far as to apologize to me if he had offended me and I appreciate and accept the apology but it was not necessary.

jawpr...you have no idea how good (and relieved) I feel to see your name again. I am somewhat humbled by the fact you felt I did not need to apoligze...but I truly felt I did need to say something to you.

I think the most important thing I said was later on in another post: We're interested in what you have to say...more importantly, we're interested in you hearing what we have to say. Two people having a dialog involves not only speaking but also hearing.

Anyway...I'm glad there are no hard feelings... perhaps Todd The Kiwi was correct after all when he pointed out: isn't there some general 'rule' about never discussing -race, religion, politics, sex or browsers in civilized company...I think it may be Todd that I owe the apology too.

[Zayoos]

Have any of you religious guys done prayers for the pope who has now passed away?
Well... Yes I did, like most people here in Poland.
It is a big loss, not only for us.

[Todd The Kiwi]

I think it may be Todd that I owe the apology to
accepted, although this is why the 'rule' is in effect... :ermm:

[rorythedog]

accepted, although this is why the 'rule' is in effect... :ermm:


IS the "rule" in effect?

[Todd The Kiwi]

IS the "rule" in effect?it is at this end...or at least it was

ten points to whoever guesses the movie quote below:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."

p.s shadowraven should know this (yes, that's a clue . (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061512/) ) :cheeky:

[Toe]

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."
Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before
Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before



;)

[Shadowraven]

it is at this end...or at least it was

ten points to whoever guesses the movie quote below:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."

p.s shadowraven should know this (yes, that's a clue . (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061512/) ) :cheeky:

That one is easy. If I remember correctly that is a line from the movie "Cool Hand Luke"

[Todd The Kiwi]

there's nothing civil about war aye man.
ahem the movie...?

[Shadowraven]

IS the "rule" in effect?

Is sure isn't for me. I like these kind of discussions!

[Todd The Kiwi]

That one is easy. If I remember correctly that is a line from the movie "Cool Hand Luke"
how's that! i was busy being a smart arse and you replied ha ha ha :p

[Shadowraven]

how's that! i was busy being a smart arse and you replied ha ha ha :p

Well, it is an old movie (from the 60's) and alot of the guys here may not be old enough to remember it. Besides, that particular line is a well known byline from that movie, often quoted.

But I figured you were being ironic.;)

Have a virtual one on me.:beer:

[Todd The Kiwi]

the car washing scene is the best man ha ha ha :laugh:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Todd, you are posting soooo off-topic in every thread. Darn, now you made me do it. :normal:

[Shadowraven]

Todd, you are posting soooo off-topic in every thread. Darn, now you made me do it. :normal:

Forum Facist!:silly:
We're taking over!!;)

[Todd The Kiwi]

someone's overdosed on smartarse pills today aye :P

[Shadowraven]

someone's overdosed on smartarse pills today aye :P

Why whatever you give you that idea?

My wife would tell you that I did that long ago. But it keeps her laughing.

Ooohhh, we're sooo off topic now!

[acushla]

Unfortunately He, and his brethren, are also partly responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa due to his Church's insistence that contraception is evil. :devil:

Well...what the Church would tell you is that the people who are getting aids are solely responsible. If they were following the decrees laid down by the Church then none of this would be happening.

Which is one of the many reasons that I have such disdain for what, in my opinion, amounts to the biggest cult the world has ever seen.

I mean really...essentially, here is a group who tell you that you are are doomed while still in your mothers womb...but...if you follow the things we tell you and give us money every week, maybe, just maybe...you might get to heaven.

There are few things in life that strike me as more idiotic than somebody standing in front of me and telling me what's going to happen to me after I die.

From what little I know, it would seem that if GODFRIED DANNEELS was elected as the next Pope, then at least there is some hope that certain policies will change as he brings the Church into the 21st century.

[madjo]

I mean really...essentially, here is a group who tell you that you are are doomed while still in your mothers womb...but...if you follow the things we tell you and give us money every week, maybe, just maybe...you might get to heaven.
wow that sounds very medieval :)
Didn't the churches in that time have 'indulgences'? ('aflaten' in dutch, according to my dictionary (which seems medieval) it is 'indulgence') People paying money so that they can 'buy off' their sins :)

[Todd The Kiwi]

pay for forgiveness? oxymoronic pun...?

i have to say i think the idea of being "pre blessed" for your sins is just smart
"go forth and slaughter, you are forgiven" :skull:

i am of course referring to knights going to war etc...

[acushla]

wow that sounds very medieval :)
Didn't the churches in that time have 'indulgences'? ('aflaten' in dutch, according to my dictionary (which seems medieval) it is 'indulgence') People paying money so that they can 'buy off' their sins :)

If I understand you correctly then I would suggest that tithing is perhaps a little more subtle than just outright demanding or asking for money to 'wash' away your transgressions.

[Shadowraven]

wow that sounds very medieval :)
Didn't the churches in that time have 'indulgences'? ('aflaten' in dutch, according to my dictionary (which seems medieval) it is 'indulgence') People paying money so that they can 'buy off' their sins :)

Yes they did. They started as mere financial transactions during the reign of Pope Leo X (GIOVANNI DE MEDICI). He had so depleted the Vatican treasury with his parties and entertainments, that he needed a method to raise more money. It was a very popular program, to the rich. All you had to do was pay the money and you got a little paper that absolved you of your sins. They mass produced these. for sale. This act was the major impetus that caused Martin Luther to nail his notices to the church doors, thus touching off the reformation. I'll stop here, because I could go on. But this points out the corruption that has permeated the church at various times in history.

[Roj]

Well...what the Church would tell you is that the people who are getting aids are solely responsible. If they were following the decrees laid down by the Church then none of this would be happening.

OK, this isn't a religious matter so I'll comment on it.

Hell, I'D tell you that the people in those countries getting AIDS are solely responsible for their own tribulations.

If they weren't so damned hung up on the stupidity that condoms "de-maled" them in some way, they'd use them and not get the virus.

If you knowingly step in front of a Mack truck for whatever reason, you DESERVE what happens to you.

Far be it from me to defend a religious institution, but don't blame the church for the stupidity, arrogance and false pride of humans who, by virtue of free will, chose their own destruction even though they had the capacity to know better.

This is the 21st century. There is no excuse whatsoever for that sort of thing to happen. I've told my own kids that:

"Whatever you do, Be Safe and Here's How".

And yes, I'll happily dismiss any and all arguments to the contrary as the pure rubbish that they are in the face of the inescapable fact that the technology exists (and is widely pervasive and dirt cheap to boot) to prevent the problems. In fact, that solution was (and is) recommended by aid organizations in those third world countries and often rejected for just those utterly stupid reasons I stated above.

[Roj]

I mean really...essentially, here is a group who tell you that you are are doomed while still in your mothers womb...but...if you follow the things we tell you and give us money every week, maybe, just maybe...you might get to heaven.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, Plenary Indulgences - the Divinely Inspired Con Job. Then you had the Calvinists who did the first half of that but not the second: "You're pre-destined to go to hell or heaven and nothing you can do or say will change the outcome".

Sweeeeeeeeeeet...

However, to balance Shadowraven's argument, such corruption is endemic to ALL large bureauocracies and not just the church.

Big Power == Big Corruption.

Period.

[acushla]

OK, this isn't a religious matter so I'll comment on it.

Hell, I'D tell you that the people in those countries getting AIDS are solely responsible for their own tribulations.

There is absolutely no question that you are correct in your assessment. My contention is that if the Church didn't have such a 'hands off' policy...and instead participated in a program of education...then I think that would go a long way to eliminating that 'stupidity'.

[madjo]

OK, this isn't a religious matter so I'll comment on it.

Hell, I'D tell you that the people in those countries getting AIDS are solely responsible for their own tribulations.

If they weren't so damned hung up on the stupidity that condoms "de-maled" them in some way, they'd use them and not get the virus.

If you knowingly step in front of a Mack truck for whatever reason, you DESERVE what happens to you.

Far be it from me to defend a religious institution, but don't blame the church for the stupidity, arrogance and false pride of humans who, by virtue of free will, chose their own destruction even though they had the capacity to know better.

This is the 21st century. There is no excuse whatsoever for that sort of thing to happen. I've told my own kids that:

"Whatever you do, Be Safe and Here's How".

And yes, I'll happily dismiss any and all arguments to the contrary as the pure rubbish that they are in the face of the inescapable fact that the technology exists (and is widely pervasive and dirt cheap to boot) to prevent the problems. In fact, that solution was (and is) recommended by aid organizations in those third world countries and often rejected for just those utterly stupid reasons I stated above.
Now here is an intrueging question...
what if you simply can't buy those precautions, because you simply don't have the money for it... indeed one could reason "don't have sex then", but could you?
Think about the third world, people don't have an awful lot of money there, they can't go around and buy a pack of condoms, because 1) they are hardly available in those countries (because of the stance of the church) and 2) because they cost too much.

Indeed in the other more wealthy countries it is indeed plain stupid to have sex without protection... but I don't think that the church has much to do with that.

I have a lot more problems with those missionaries in those poorer countries not handing them out, when people want them, just because the church frowns upon birthcontrol.

[acushla]

Big Power == Big Corruption.Period.

Fair enough. My question is, since you are now aware of that...what are you going to do about it?

[Roj]

what if you simply can't buy those precautions, because you simply don't have the money for it...

Many of those aforementioned international aid agencies (Canada's among them) give those contraceptives away for free.

[Roj]

Fair enough. My question is, since you are now aware of that...what are you going to do about it?
Well, there are two things that bureauocracies don't like (and no one knows that more than I of late, form my dealings with hospitals):

1) Questions - because then they have to do real work to justify themselves
2) Irritants - because then they have to do real work to deal with them

I propose (and am pursuing) both, whenever possible.

[Roj]

There is absolutely no question that you are correct in your assessment. My contention is that if the Church didn't have such a 'hands off' policy...and instead participated in a program of education...then I think that would go a long way to eliminating that 'stupidity'.
I disagree in the "long way" aspect of your comment. A lot of these "beliefs" on masculinity are cultural mores that even the women uphold.

"De-man" her man? NEVER!

Changing the church's attitude would have some effect but in the face of the other it would be distinctly minor.

[Shadowraven]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, Plenary Indulgences - the Divinely Inspired Con Job. Then you had the Calvinists who did the first half of that but not the second: "You're pre-destined to go to hell or heaven and nothing you can do or say will change the outcome".

Sweeeeeeeeeeet...

However, to balance Shadowraven's argument, such corruption is endemic to ALL large bureauocracies and not just the church.

Big Power == Big Corruption.

Period.

Agreed. That is a constant everywhere, but it is still is a historical problem with church.

As for the corruption in earlier times, what else would you expect from a De Medici?

[Roj]

Agreed. That is a constant everywhere, but it is still is a historical problem with church.

As for the corruption in earlier times, what else would you expect from a De Medici?
About the same as I'd expect from a Borgia. :)

[acushla]

I disagree in the "long way" aspect of your comment. A lot of these "beliefs" on masculinity are cultural mores that even the women uphold.

"De-man" her man? NEVER!

Changing the church's attitude would have some effect but in the face of the other it would be distinctly minor.

Perhaps I am confusing Africa with South America.

I have a joke and even though I suppose I should be putting it in the Joke Thread I am going to play anarchist and post it here.

Jamaica (I think you know it!)...Kingston...there is a young man, living at home with his mother and father, who has just graduated from this final year at school. Realizing that now it is time to get a job he submits applications with several companies and is given a job as a salesman for a paint distributer. This means that he drives all over the Island performing various duties...but most of all trying to establish new sales agents in towns where the paint is not sold. Many of these trips take him to Montego Bay...where, because of the distance, he must stay for a day or two.

Several months later he returns home and is very excited. Finding his father the son explains how he has met a girl named Tanisha while in Montego Bay and after several months of dating he has decided to ask her to marry him.
The father, looking very concerned, tells his son not to say anything to his mother but he cannot marry Tanisha because she is his sister.

The son cannot believe what his father is telling him and later that day, in anger and disappointment decides to tell his mother the entire story.

When he is finished his mother looks at him, smiles, and tells him to go ahead and marry Tanisha because he is not his fathers son.
Montego Bay and he intends to ask the girl to marry him. The father, looking

[Todd The Kiwi]

Montego Bay and he intends to ask the girl to marry him. The father, looking...eek, is there more to this story, or am i missing the punchline ? :confused:

[Todd The Kiwi]

regarding safe sex, aids and life in general - just because you've been told doesn't mean you've been taught :chinese:

[Roj]

Perhaps I am confusing Africa with South America.

I have a joke and even though I suppose I should be putting it in the Joke Thread I am going to play anarchist and post it here.

Yup - know that joke and there's more truth to that than you'd care to know. :)

[acushla]

Yup - know that joke and there's more truth to that than you'd care to know. :)

Spent a LOT of time in the Caribbean, have pretty well dated Black Women exclusively and was married to a Trinidadian and a Guyanese (at the same time). I've been that truth. (ok, not really, but you understand.)

[rorythedog]

OK, this isn't a religious matter so I'll comment on it.

Hell, I'D tell you that the people in those countries getting AIDS are solely responsible for their own tribulations.

If they weren't so damned hung up on the stupidity that condoms "de-maled" them in some way, they'd use them and not get the virus.

If you knowingly step in front of a Mack truck for whatever reason, you DESERVE what happens to you.

Far be it from me to defend a religious institution, but don't blame the church for the stupidity, arrogance and false pride of humans who, by virtue of free will, chose their own destruction even though they had the capacity to know better.

This is the 21st century. There is no excuse whatsoever for that sort of thing to happen. I've told my own kids that:

"Whatever you do, Be Safe and Here's How".

And yes, I'll happily dismiss any and all arguments to the contrary as the pure rubbish that they are in the face of the inescapable fact that the technology exists (and is widely pervasive and dirt cheap to boot) to prevent the problems. In fact, that solution was (and is) recommended by aid organizations in those third world countries and often rejected for just those utterly stupid reasons I stated above.


No offence mate, we usually tend to agree on most things, but...

this rant above is BOLLOCKS!

Tomorrow, when the booze wears off, i'll defend this.

[acushla]

Well, there are two things that bureauocracies don't like (and no one knows that more than I of late, form my dealings with hospitals):

1) Questions - because then they have to do real work to justify themselves
2) Irritants - because then they have to do real work to deal with them

I propose (and am pursuing) both, whenever possible.

Questions (of significance) often just lead you moving from one department to the other until at some point you've forgotten exactly what the question was.

Irritate them too much and you'll end up wishing you hadn't.

I have my own way of dealing with most of this...but even so I am constantly amazed and frustrated at the self serving greed and total disregard that verges on disdain that Corporations, Business and Government show towards the citizens. In the end I feel it is the fault of the people in as much that as a society they have simply given up and withdrawn to their couches for the latest episode of 'Puppets Who Kill'. In the end people are content to talk among themselves about the latest scandel...day after day after day after day.

People who ask questions and make a nuisance of themselves are viewed with suspicion. Unless of course you form a cell.

[Todd The Kiwi]

seriously, is that the entire joke or is a bit missing at the end?

[Shadowraven]

Questions (of significance) often just lead you moving from one department to the other until at some point you've forgotten exactly what the question was.

Irritate them too much and you'll end up wishing you hadn't.

I have my own way of dealing with most of this...but even so I am constantly amazed and frustrated at the self serving greed and total disregard that verges on disdain that Corporations, Business and Government show towards the citizens. In the end I feel it is the fault of the people in as much that as a society they have simply given up and withdrawn to their couches for the latest episode of 'Puppets Who Kill'. In the end people are content to talk among themselves about the latest scandel...day after day after day after day.

People who ask questions and make a nuisance of themselves are viewed with suspicion. Unless of course you form a cell.

You know, acushla, this is just the type of behavior that those organizations have been cultivating among the populace. They want you to believe that there is nothing you can do, so just sit back, relax and let us run things.

Why do you think that the media (at least in the U.S.) concentrates so much on minutae and ignores the real problems they should be reporting on. We'd rather know what happened on the last episode of our favorite "reality" show than know what the government or some major corporation is doing to us. Let's see what our celebrities are doing and never mind what that man behind the curtain is doing...

One problem we have in the U.S is that the Republicans, Corporations, and fundies have hijacked the government and our education system. All in the name of the great twin Gods of Greed and Righteousness. They are trying to push us back into the past both historically and scientifically.

Canada and Europe are both ahead of the curve morally and socially. Hopefully we'll catch up eventually. The trouble is that people here believe that you guys are the ones going in the wrong direction. I attribute that to laziness (don't want to spend the time to think), stubborness (we're comfortable, don't you rock the boat), machismo (we're tough guys, don't mess with us), and righteous christians who need to save us all (whether or not we want (or need) it or not.

As long as Dubya talks tough and waves the cross, he's the (cough) best. It makes me want to puke every time I see or hear him.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

The US badly needs the separation of church and state, and no more "God bless us" at the end of every presidential speech. That phrase totally has lost its true meaning. Here in Europe religious expressions are distictly separated from politics, especially in the Netherlands and probably for the better.

[Shadowraven]

The US badly needs the separation of church and state, and no more "God bless us" at the end of every presidential speech. That phrase totally has lost its true meaning. Here in Europe religious expressions are distictly separated from politics, especially in the Netherlands and probably for the better.

As it should be. The fundies here have been trying for years to blur that line as much as possible. They keep trying to change their lines of attack to muddy the issues and make it look like their aganda has nothing to do with religion. This is ridiculous when any intelligent, educated, person can see what they are doing. Unfortunately that description doesn't match alot of people I see here. Every time ACLU tries to maintain that separation with a lawsuit challenging them, the fundies scream bloody murder. They try to say they are atheistic communists and socialists and are trying to dilute morality in society. What they really mean is that we aren't all bowing to their beliefs.

[acushla]

As it should be. The fundies here have been trying for years to blur that line as much as possible. They keep trying to change their lines of attack to muddy the issues and make it look like their agenda has nothing to do with religion. This is ridiculous when any intelligent, educated, person can see what they are doing. Unfortunately that description doesn't match alot of people I see here. Every time ACLU tries to maintain that separation with a lawsuit challenging them, the fundies scream bloody murder. They try to say they are atheistic communists and socialists and are trying to dilute morality in society. What they really mean is that we aren't all bowing to their beliefs.

I must say that I am surprised by your statement that the fundies try to make it look like their agenda has nothing to do with religion. My perception here in Canada is that they are open and proud of their religion.

All this talk reminds me of The Daily Show the day after the last election. Jon began in a somewhat shell shocked voice after the game had been lost to offer his congratulations to the winner...and wish him well...before going into a little monologue expressing total disbelief over what had just happened. Not only had Bush really won this election...he had won it by a greater margin than the one he stole. When you talk about a Christian majority...that's exactly what you've got. And they're the ones running the country and making policy, thank you very much.

For better or worse...you are in a minority in your country...and nothing indicates to me that this is going to change anytime soon.

[Shadowraven]

I must say that I am surprised by your statement that the fundies try to make it look like their agenda has nothing to do with religion. My perception here in Canada is that they are open and proud of their religion.

All this talk reminds me of The Daily Show the day after the last election. Jon began in a somewhat shell shocked voice after the game had been lost to offer his congratulations to the winner...and wish him well...before going into a little monologue expressing total disbelief over what had just happened. Not only had Bush really won this election...he had won it by a greater margin than the one he stole. When you talk about a Christian majority...that's exactly what you've got. And they're the ones running the country and making policy, thank you very much.

For better or worse...you are in a minority in your country...and nothing indicates to me that this is going to change anytime soon.

Less so then you might imagine. I live in a very conservative state (Ohio) and the last election here was very close (even if it was rigged, again). There are quite a few people here that are becoming disgusted with Dubya, but not enough. Gods know, I'm doing my best to spread the word. Unfortunately though, I think you are right. I don't think that a change will come before too much damage has been inflicted on us.

As for the masking their message they do it with obfuscation. They try to blur their reasons for making changes in our society.

One thing they try to challenge is evolution. They try to portay their theory of "Intelligent Design" as a scientific counter-theory to the one of evolution. They show how the "evidence" helps support their ideas. When presented with the idea that they are pre-supposing the idea of God doing this, they try to pull a verbal shell game to say that isn't so. Ridiculous! And they are trying to change school curriculum to teach both ideas as real possibilities. Not as science and religion, but both as science. I say that thier idea may be taught, but only in a comparative religion class, NOT as science.

They also try to say that displaying the Ten Commandments in public, on government property, is not sponsered religion. They claim that it is simply showing the moral code our society is based on. They say it shows the code we all live by. Hogwash! It is state sponsered endorsement of a religious point of view. I personally don't agree with all of the Commandments. So why should I have to tolerate it on government property? I find it offensive.

These people try to put God back into government with the idea that it is what our founding fathers based our country's ideas on. From that statement alone, it is obvious to me that they have never read anything written by them. Not and truly understood what they were reading. The founders of the U.S. Constitution are unequivocal on how they felt about any religion being introduced into government. Read Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, Frankiln, etc. It's pretty obvious to any intelligent person how they felt on this subject.

[acushla]

[QUOTE=Shadowraven]LI don't think that a change will come before too much damage has been inflicted on us.

I'm waiting for the drum roll and cymbel...BEFORE TOO MUCH DAMAGE......you mean to say there is MORE to come? Now you're scaring me. I don't think you fully appreciate what the consequences to all your debt is going to have...not just in your county...but Globally.

I remember when the Government/God issue was challenged in court...San Francisco if memory serves me well. I thought two things...one...he was absolutely correct...two...he didn't have a snowballs chance in Hell of effecting any change...unless of course you counted his midnight car 'accident' or mysterious disappearance.

...the U.S. Constitution is the greatest document ever written. Period. I asked my lady friend to pick me up a copy last year when she was visiting her friend in Florida. Guess what? Can't buy it...nobody had it for sale. Some sales clerks asked 'What is that?'. I've checked around Ann Arbour...same story. What's up with that?

[Shadowraven]

[QUOTE=Shadowraven]LI don't think that a change will come before too much damage has been inflicted on us.

I'm waiting for the drum roll and cymbel...BEFORE TOO MUCH DAMAGE......you mean to say there is MORE to come? Now you're scaring me. I don't think you fully appreciate what the consequences to all your debt is going to have...not just in your county...but Globally.

I remember when the Government/God issue was challenged in court...San Francisco if memory serves me well. I thought two things...one...he was absolutely correct...two...he didn't have a snowballs chance in Hell of effecting any change...unless of course you counted his midnight car 'accident' or mysterious disappearance.

...the U.S. Constitution is the greatest document ever written. Period. I asked my lady friend to pick me up a copy last year when she was visiting her friend in Florida. Guess what? Can't buy it...nobody had it for sale. Some sales clerks asked 'What is that?'. I've checked around Ann Arbour...same story. What's up with that?

Acushla, I am all too acutely aware of the danger it presents. To explain that in full would take too long right now. But in short, it could literally bankrupt my country, ruin our global credit. THAT would snowball into an unbelievable disaster for the whole world. I've heard quite a few economists discuss this very matter. I remember before Dubya was re-elected that a group of Nobel Prize winning economists got together and put out a joint warning of the dangers of Dubya's economic policy (or lack of it). Now if you know economists, it's hard to get any of them to agree on anything, much less a group of Nobel lauretes.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but it's hard to find things going on politically, scienticfically, or historically I won't have some familiarity with. That is because I am a voracious reader, as well as purveyor of news. My wife jokes with me that I am a walking encyclopedia, dictionary, and history book rolled into one. I make every attempt I can to stay informed. I just wish more people did.

I also agree that the U.S. Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever written. It's based on learned lessons and ideas, not only from Europe, but from the Native-Americans as well. Now if just more people would really read and follow it. They could also read our founding fathers writings as well to see just what they meant when they wrote it.

BTW acushla, I'm not sure you can buy a copy of it. However if you want a copy of it go here (http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html), here (http://www.usconstitution.net/), or here (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html). Happy hunting!!

[acushla]

I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but it's hard to find things going on politically, scientifically, or historically I won't have some familiarity with. That is because I am a voracious reader, as well as purveyor of news. My wife jokes with me that I am a walking encyclopedia, dictionary, and history book rolled into one. I make every attempt I can to stay informed. I just wish more people did.

Trust me Shadowraven...you needn't have told me this...I knew already. It is one of the reasons I so enjoy talking to you.

I have a much different approach to my learning now than I did years ago. I find it more interesting not to have read up on too many topics because I feel (for myself) that I only end up parroting that which I have heard/read.

By conversing in this way I enjoy the fact that I am speaking in more general terms, and therefore principals combined with what I call a Historical perspective (that's my latest battle cry) and force both myself and others to discuss issues from a different, and more universal. position. I challenge myself. This is actually difficult for me to explain. I believe (and hope) that being who I am I am able to bring a something new that allows an exchange of ideas of our own than simply the recanting of the day's events. Or at least to see those events as a part of something far bigger.

I have learned long ago if you are an idiot then better to talk to somebody who isn't because at least then there is a possibility that you will rise above. Based on the adage that it is 'better to be a good follower than a bad leader!'

[Shadowraven]

Too true. You can learn something from just about anyone, if you know how to listen. You can learn something from an idiot, but probably not from what they say, but why they say it.

Your comment on having your ideas challenged is just the ticket to remaining mentally sharp. If you talk only to yourself, or those that agree with you, you don't learn to refine or understand even your own ideas. I find that often just by discussing these things with other folks you can not only learn something from their views, but something from yourself when you try to translate your ideas into words. Without challenges you are nothing but a static limp of clay, without thought. More people also need to realize that change IS growth, and stasis is a form of mental death.

I tell you, I certainly am not guilty of this and I try to spread the idea to others. But not force it on them.;)

[rorythedog]

No offence mate, we usually tend to agree on most things, but...

this rant above is BOLLOCKS!

Tomorrow, when the booze wears off, i'll defend this.

Where to start? First, an apology. I apologise for the language I used above. I realise I may have offended innocent by-standers with that throwaway line. In Scotland it would be acceptable, on an international forum, maybe less so.

Second Roj, I did not say at ANY time that the church was solely responsible for Africa's problems. Read my first papal post for clarity.

But really Roj, you're post is a rant. The idea that we all have this fantastic education which allows us all to see things clearly and practically is nonsense. It may be possible for people in the "civilized" West to think this way (although a sizeable minority do not). It's not the same in Africa and a lot of other third world areas. Many people in these places don't have the "education".

I know you don't lend much creedence to my opinion, so go ask The Red Cross, Medicines Sans Frontiers, Amnesty International or the United Nations. I am only reflecting what I read from them. They may be wrong and you right, but I doubt it.

The Catholic church, worldwide, is in a wonderful position to change this situation. But they don't. Why not? Why tell people with little education that they'll burn in hell for using condoms?

I'll tell you why. Because the only profit in Africa for the Church is to keep it the sick boy of the world. And milk us to death. Africans, per capita, have virtually no money. We in the West do. So they keep the West sweet by telling us how much we can help Africa by joining their church and, through DONATIONS, we can both help Africa, and assuage our own feelings of guilt.

I've always understood that we are rich BECAUSE they are poor.

To quote Douglas Adams, it's about "...the fundamental inter-connectedness of all things".

I don't know if this post will help you understand where I'm coming from. I suspect not. However, having had a night to think about this, the one thing that IS crystal is that I shouldn't care. I DO care, but I SHOULDN'T.

With this in mind, I'm signing out of this topic, and this forum. I'm 40 years old and honestly, it feels as though I've been argueing all my life. I always try to see the other side. This is a very "close" forum, I consider everybody here to be my friend, so I'm bowing out for a bit. Doing a "Jawpr" if you will. (See Jawpr, I do listen). I don't want to lose the friends I have here and I honestly feel I might.

This post is subject to edit, for the sake of clarity.

[Willow of Oz]

...the thread that tears the community apart, then builds it back together again.

[Roj]

OK rory, hold up a bit.

I used to work for CIDA (the Canadian government aid arm) so I do know a bit about what goes on. I do know that education, belief systems, etc. are entirely different in the Third World. I'm originally from a Third World country so I also have a bit of first hand experience.

The church is a big influence over there. Its agents tend to preach as they do about chastity, contraception, etc. but I also know that they have little effect in that department.

My point is that they have far less of an effect on people regarding that issue than local cultural norms, where contraception is looked upon as essentially emasculation.

Yes, it would help if they changed their doctrine - but not much, because of those cultural norms, etc..

That's pretty much all I was trying to say.

We can disagree - friends do that. Note that the word "friends" is in that sentence. I'm not going to think any less of you, of your opinions or lose respect for you. That goes for everyone else here who participates in any of the lively and spirited debates.

Like you, I'm in my 40s and seem to have been always fighting for one thing or another - I can relate, especially now (more than you guys will ever know). That being said, I ain't fighting with y'all.

The point is that because we in this online community ARE friends, we can do this. The discussion may get heated, but at the end of the day I'll buy you a virtual beer, say "Cheers!" and all will be well - or at least, I'd like to think that this is so.

[rorythedog]

Re-read your original post Roj. Does that sound like a reasonable input to a "discussion". It seems to me that it precludes any discussion whatsoever.

Climb down off the horse man, it's making you dizzy.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I agree with Rory on the matter. People in the less developed countries are not sufficiently informed about any means of preventing them from harm. They have no money to buy medicine. The money needs to come from the developed countries because the governments in the less developed ones are completely corrupted and the hunger for power is overwhelming there. Take a look at Mugabe. This motherf*cker is ruining his own country and people, but does he care? I think not. He's in control and has the money. He's driven out the white skinned farmers. The economy is failing and people are starving. What a way to go. How can anyone say that the citizens of the various countries in Afrika are themselves to blame? And then the pope came along and says all life is holy, we will not allow abortions and contraception. There's must be something very screwed with the community of the church. Are there not already enough people living on this planet. Why risk a world epidemic? Nobody can stop the HIV virus. It will just mutate endlessly.

[Roj]

Re-read your original post Roj. Does that sound like a reasonable input to a "discussion". It seems to me that it precludes any discussion whatsoever.

Climb down off the horse man, it's making you dizzy.

There's another post in the Michael Jackson thread that IS indeed a rant but let's dissect the one from me that you take issue with in this thread:

Hell, I'D tell you that the people in those countries getting AIDS are solely responsible for their own tribulations.

You practice unprotected sex, you may get AIDS - period.

If they weren't so damned hung up on the stupidity that condoms "de-maled" them in some way, they'd use them and not get the virus.

A cultural norm that they choose to accept which has potentially dire consequences in light of the previous statement.

If you knowingly step in front of a Mack truck for whatever reason, you DESERVE what happens to you.

If you're warned not to put your hand on the hot stove and you still opt to do so...

Far be it from me to defend a religious institution, but don't blame the church for the stupidity, arrogance and false pride of humans who, by virtue of free will, chose their own destruction even though they had the capacity to know better.

This was a wee bit strong (tongue squarely in cheek) but essentially boilds down to the following:

1) I typically speak against religious institutions
2) Many of the aid organization tell people to use condoms in Third World countries and dispense them for free. They are often ignored because of the aforementioned cultural norms. You can lead a horse to water...
3) False pride / arrogance == unreasonable estimations of what makes a man a man. If wearing a piece of latex somehow makes you less of a man...
4) If people warn you not to do something and due to point 3 you make the ill-advised choice to do it anyway...

This is the 21st century. There is no excuse whatsoever for that sort of thing to happen. I've told my own kids that:

"Whatever you do, Be Safe and Here's How".

And yes, I'll happily dismiss any and all arguments to the contrary as the pure rubbish that they are in the face of the inescapable fact that the technology exists (and is widely pervasive and dirt cheap to boot) to prevent the problems. In fact, that solution was (and is) recommended by aid organizations in those third world countries and often rejected for just those utterly stupid reasons I stated above.

That's more of a general comment on the state of things in North America and the more advanced Third World countries rather than Africa. I can definitely see how this last could be taken as a diatribe.

It all comes to this:

If you know better because you've been warned and you still choose to do it then accept the consequences.

[Shadowraven]

Roj, I can see you point on this and it alot of the problem in those countries isdue to attitudes like you say, but I think rory has the gist of it right. Being told something and understanding it are two different things. When a person is basically uneducated they don't have the tools in the toolbox to necessairly understand what they are being taught. They also have a history of not trusting that anyone in authority their best interests in mind. That is were thier attitudes can come in and the men's machismo can come up. Both men and women in those countries need an organization they can believe (and that often is the church) say that contraception is right.

Being basically uneducated means that they won't often follow the advice given to them. I see that in this country with people who have little education. You can't expect the same reaction from people in the Third World that you get in the West. Their education level has not reached the point were it can override cultural attitudes.

Rory, I for one would hate to see you leave. I always find your two cents worth reading. I really don't think Roj meant what he said in the way you seemed to take it. I'm new to this forum, but feel a connection to many of the people here. I consider you folks friends. I'm like you and Roj. I'm in my 40's and feel like I've been arguing all my life as well. I'm just asking you don't give up, your input is valuable and valued by people here.

[Roj]

Being told something and understanding it are two different things. When a person is basically uneducated they don't have the tools in the toolbox to necessairly understand what they are being taught.

OK - I can definitely buy into that.

They also have a history of not trusting that anyone in authority their best interests in mind. That is were thier attitudes can come in and the men's machismo can come up.

I can agree there too.

Both men and women in those countries need an organization they can believe (and that often is the church) say that contraception is right.

OK - that works for me.

To my mind, that also makes the church irresponsible if they DON'T preach contraception.

I take it that's where rory was going?

Rory, I for one would hate to see you leave. I always find your two cents worth reading. I really don't think Roj meant what he said in the way you seemed to take it. I'm new to this forum, but feel a connection to many of the people here. I consider you folks friends. I'm like you and Roj. I'm in my 40's and feel like I've been arguing all my life as well. I'm just asking you don't give up, your input is valuable and valued by people here.

Rory, don't you freaking dare leave. :) THAT would definitely lessen us. I had no desire to denigrate you - only to argue against what I perceived your opinion to be.

Please accept my sincere apology for any offence given.

[Shadowraven]

OK - that works for me.

To my mind, that also makes the church irresponsible if they DON'T preach contraception.

I take it that's where rory was going?

That is my belief and that is what I think he was saying. The church is being irresponsible when it counter wht the aid aganecies are saying. What are these people supposed to believe. They can't think critically enough to tell the difference.

[rorythedog]

You'll have to forgive me guys, I'm not too good at all this copy & pasting lark. So no BOLD type here.

Roj, I'm glad you finally agree with what I said. It took a while. I can't stand posts that leave no room for debate. What's the point? We're here to DISCUSS things.

It's probably fair to say that, given the subject matter, it's a miracle it got this far without any mortal blows being struck. So well done everybody.

I accept your apology. Not a problem. It's precisely because we're all so close here that things can boil up now and again. I expect it's a good thing.

I also apologise again, not so much for what I said, but more the way I said it.
3 sheets to the wind kind of thing. I'm afraid my policy, for the last 40 years, has been to fight fire with fire. This is a crap policy, and I reccomend it to no-one.

BTW, never mind a virtual beer, if you're paying, I'll have a virtual Talisker.

Slange!

The Dog's Bone Of The Week (http://rateyourmusic.com/view_album_details/album_id_is_146550)

[Roj]

I also apologise again, not so much for what I said, but more the way I said it.

I can understand only too well. Not to use it as an excuse but I'm under an extreme amount of stress in my personal life. My dad, whose mind is the logical model that I have striven to emulate all my life, is in the late stages of Parkinson's Disease, a degenerative neurological disorder. You may recall I had to make a sudden trip earlier this year. That was because he broke his hip (the ball of the socket / ball joint snapped off and had to be replaced) and the shock of the resulting surgery as well as the painkilling drugs administered (before we got them removed - aparrently too late) drastically accellerated the advance of the disease. Things aren't good and not getting better. In the space of days he went from a moderately mobile and still articulate man with a razor sharp mind who could feed and shower himself as well as navigate stairs to one who can only eat pureed food, can't move, has slurred speech to the point of intelligibility, sleeps most of the time and is lucid for only half the time he is awake. It's all the more distressing because when he's lucid it becomes painfully aparrent that he's still in there, complete with mental acumen, before he wanders off into the disease-induced fog again.

I'm afraid I let the frustration and anger from that color my responses here. I too have a marked tendency to fight fire with fire and in this case I guess I started one.

Not a good thing.

Sorry guys (and girls if any are out there).

BTW, never mind a virtual beer, if you're paying, I'll have a virtual Talisker.

Consider it done! Right now there isn't enough rum in the house to get me 3 sheets to the wind - and even if there were, when it wore off, things would still be as they are. :(

[acushla]

Right now there isn't enough rum in the house to get me 3 sheets to the wind - and even if there were, when it wore off, things would still be as they are. :(

This...is a very important truth to remember. For anyone.

[Shadowraven]

This...is a very important truth to remember. For anyone.

Agreed. It almost tore my family apart. My dad drank way too much when I was a kid. Nothing good came of it. For him, for the family, for anyone. He finally stopped, but only because his health forced him to. I've personally seen peoples whole lives destroyed by addictions. Far too many times. It's hard to see someone with a real life throw it all away and destroy it that way. In my job you see it all the time. I've seen the death of 5 people because of it. Their bodies simply gave up.

Roj and Rory, I'm glad you guys are getting along again. I personally value both of you, and your opinions. I hope I helped you two see a middle ground, I was trying to. It's what I always try to do.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

So as you guys probably know we have a new pope! Or should i say "Habemus Papam" ha ha. Interesting in a way because Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now pope--Benedict XVI is already like 78 years old! Are you guys happy he's the new pope? I dont care as much except that he is like ultra conservative. That's not what i hoped for, for the obvious reasons. I am more in favour of progression. I wonder if he will succeed in uniting the Roman catholic church community. :ponder:

Still kinda crazy seeing all those people standing on st peters square in the vatican screaming with euphoria when Ratzinger made his first public appearance as pope. I couldnt imagine doing to same!

[acushla]

So as you guys probably know we have a new pope! Or should i say "Habemus Papam" ha ha. Interesting in a way because Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now pope--Benedict XVI is already like 78 years old! Are you guys happy he's the new pope? I dont care as much except that he is like ultra conservative. That's not what i hoped for, for the obvious reasons. I am more in favour of progression. I wonder if he will succeed in uniting the Roman catholic church community. :ponder:

Still kinda crazy seeing all those people standing on st peters square in the vatican screaming with euphoria when Ratzinger made his first public appearance as pope. I couldnt imagine doing to same!

I know you mean well Rex (what are you studying?) but for some of us this could be viewed as bait.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I know you mean well Rex (what are you studying?) but for some of us this could be viewed as bait.

Im sorry, did i say something wrong? :puzzled:

[acushla]

Im sorry, did i say something wrong? :puzzled:

No...not at all. It's just that discussions of Pope's can lead to discussions of religions and I suppose I'm a little sensitive to it given the last discussion about religion in this forum.

That's my problem though...not yours.

PS In another thread you mentioned something about exams and I was curious as to what you were studying. Care to share?

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

PS In another thread you mentioned something about exams and I was curious as to what you were studying. Care to share?

Have a look here (http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32415&postcount=60) . This is my reply in the other thread.

You know, I thougth i'd just mention that we have a new pope. It's big news, kinda hard to ignore ;). But decided i didnt want to make a new thread for it though. If no one has the desire to say something about pope--Benedict XVI then so be it.

There is this bit of interesting information i discovered today. An American, i believe, bought the domain name: www.benedictXVI.com the 1st of April without knowing for sure that this is the name Ratzinger would choose. He was correct, so now i wonder what he is going to do with it. You can read about it when you type the address in. It's kinda funny :)

[jkrzok]

It's sad this new Pope comes in with so much baggage; he was a very prolific author in the past and some of those writings may well haunt him. Like the statement that other Christian religions were "deficient." If they're "deficient" what's he think about Jews, Moslems, etc?

But as they say, "Past performance does not guarantee future results." It took the McCarthyite Nixon to go to China. Perhaps his conserative foundations will similarly allow Benedict to open up the Church in ways that a more liberal Poniff would have been unable to do.

He's also, what, 79 years old? How much of an impact can he have in a Church that's lasted millenia?

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Something else interesting about the pope. He chose the name Benedict because he wanted to relate himself to a previous pope with the same name who had the shortest ever pontification. The name means 'blessed'.

[acushla]

"Past performance does not guarantee future results."

Interesting saying...I had not seen this before. Good one. http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon3.gif

For some reason the 'Show All Smiles' feature wouldn't open...so I choose an icon 'from the following list'.

Whenever I do this, instead of going to the point of the cursor, as it does through 'Show All Smiles'...it goes to the title bar.

Since you are unable to 'cut' it from there...you have to copy it...which means now there are two in the post. I just want one...at the cursor point. Help.

Since I'm yelling Help...is there a way to have a private message you send saved? I've looked around in there but was unable to find a 'Sent folder'. I know I can create my own on my Hard Drive...but I'm lazy and would just prefer to have it saved at the time I send it.

[Willow of Oz]

1. Sent Items: go to the private messages and there's a drop down box with inbox and sent items
2. Yes, discussions of popes probably do lead to discussions of religion, but that's why the post was here, presumably, since this is the religious thread.

[Shadowraven]

I was also hoping for a more progressive man in that position. That's because, like it or not, the Pope does have an effect on everyone. It doesn't matter if you are Catholic or not, his actions can affect you.

I was hoping that the new Pope might signal a change in the Catholic church. It seems to be out of touch with alot of the Catholics I know. My wife and her family are Catholic, but I haven't had a chance to talk to them much about it. They would have a fit if they knew what I was.

I can tell you that the last thing we need in the world right now is another voice resisting change. The world needs big changes to happen, and soon, or we could all be in trouble. We need more progressives in postions of authority that's for sure.

[acushla]

1. Sent Items: go to the private messages and there's a drop down box with inbox and sent items
2. Yes, discussions of popes probably do lead to discussions of religion, but that's why the post was here, presumably, since this is the religious thread.

You know, about the thread thing...you're right! I had totally forgotten that this in fact was 'that' thread...is seems so long ago now. Anyway...I felt I did cover myself when I freely acknowledged it was 'my problem' and not anybody else's.

Mucho gratis for the instructions on where to find the sent items. I kinda knew there had to be one...just couldn't find it.

[madjo]

I was also hoping for a more progressive man in that position. That's because, like it or not, the Pope does have an effect on everyone. It doesn't matter if you are Catholic or not, his actions can affect you.

I was hoping that the new Pope might signal a change in the Catholic church. It seems to be out of touch with alot of the Catholics I know. My wife and her family are Catholic, but I haven't had a chance to talk to them much about it. They would have a fit if they knew what I was.

I can tell you that the last thing we need in the world right now is another voice resisting change. The world needs big changes to happen, and soon, or we could all be in trouble. We need more progressives in postions of authority that's for sure.as long as he can say "Bedankt voor die bloemen" (thanks for the flowers) every year with easter (and christmas?). :)

[acushla]

as long as he can say "Bedankt voor die bloemen" (thanks for the flowers) every year with easter (and christmas?). :)

Maybe if he could say it for 1 year...then bye-bye.

[Shadowraven]

Maybe if he could say it for 1 year...then bye-bye.

You know, I also find it very strange that they would pick a man for that job who is already pretty old. I mean he's 78 now, just how long do they think he can actually last, or is that the point? Maybe that's a signal that they will move foward soon. Who knows? We can only hope.

[Qaz]

Have popes ever been all that young?

I also heard that he has a nazi background? Have any of you heard about this?

Personally I would have found it pretty interesting if the African one (Francis Arinze? Yeah, I didn't pay very much attention to the elections.) had been chosen. He might even been a bit more progressive.

[jkrzok]

I also heard that he has a nazi background? Have any of you heard about this?

EVERY German of his age was a member of the Hitler Youth or some such Nazi youth organization. It was not optional, unless you liked lead in your diet.

[Qaz]

EVERY German of his age was a member of the Hitler Youth or some such Nazi youth organization. It was not optional, unless you liked lead in your diet.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. Was just wondering whether there were anything more to this.

[acushla]

Personally I would have found it pretty interesting if the African one (Francis Arinze? Yeah, I didn't pay very much attention to the elections.) had been chosen. He might even been a bit more progressive.

Come to think of it...Rev. Falwell would be a bit more progresssive.

[Shadowraven]

Come to think of it...Rev. Falwell would be a bit more progresssive.

LOL! Now THAT is funny!

[acushla]

Not to sound insulting or anything that may offend anyone, but are there any atheists here? I am one myself but i tend not to go into religious discussions. I feel people should believe in what they think is right and gives them moral support. Out of curiousity, I feel the urge to make a poll with the main religions but i'm not sure if i should. :nervous:

Here is a site I think you will enjoy.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/index.shtml