13.1 Surround Anyone?

[rorythedog]

What do you guys think of this then?

13.1 Sound (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/06/news_6115922.html) :carrot:

[Willow of Oz]

Interesting.
I haven't seen the layout for this - anyone?
One sensible solution would be to have 7.1 go into an upper and lower configuration, barring the centre channel.
So,
centre (front and centre)
sub (off somewhere)
2 front ground
2 front up high
2 side ground
2 side up high
2 rear ground
2 rear up high

That way we finally get a vertical soundspace. Which would be way cool in games. Oh, and movies too.
(...goes off to study bedroom and plan where to put another six speakers...)

[Roj]

Interesting.
I haven't seen the layout for this - anyone?
One sensible solution would be to have 7.1 go into an upper and lower configuration, barring the centre channel.
So,
centre (front and centre)
sub (off somewhere)
2 front ground
2 front up high
2 side ground
2 side up high
2 rear ground
2 rear up high

That way we finally get a vertical soundspace. Which would be way cool in games. Oh, and movies too.
(...goes off to study bedroom and plan where to put another six speakers...)
I hate to burst your bubble but IMO anything over 5.1 is useless overkill, not to mention utterly impractical in the PC environment> I mean, really now... :)

[Psy]

I bet half the manual will be to learn how to get out from inside the speakers circle... :silly:

[jkrzok]

Thinking about 13.1 I remember the oppositon my mother gave me when I was setting up a surround sound system in her house. "But they're ugly and there's no place to put them and..." Now she doesn't use them.

Can you picture "Now mom, it's twice the speakers but you get up and down, right and left, front and back. Yes they're still ugly, and no, you have no place to put them, but but but you get up and down!!!"

Real world... Does that level of audio sophistication matter in a world where it seems the vast majority of people are willing to accept substandard mp3 sound, at least in comparison to CDs? I am disheartened when I see the mass proliferation of hardware mp3 players at the same time super cds and audio dvds are meeting with a lukewarm reception.

There will be a market for 13.1 I imagine for home theatres perhaps, most likely at the high end of systems. But practically, how many will really see a need?

[Aaron]

There will be a market for 13.1 I imagine for home theatres perhaps, most likely at the high end of systems. But practically, how many will really see a need?

People will buy them for bragging rights (a.k.a. penis measuring competition).

Marketing people are sneaky and know this :bandit:

Aaron

[madjo]

Real world... Does that level of audio sophistication matter in a world where it seems the vast majority of people are willing to accept substandard mp3 sound, at least in comparison to CDs? I am disheartened when I see the mass proliferation of hardware mp3 players at the same time super cds and audio dvds are meeting with a lukewarm reception.
How many systems do those 'super cds' justice? I, on my system (a Philips), don't hear a large difference... (but that also goes for the 'difference between mp3s and cds.. unless the mp3 is made in a very low bitrate, I don't hear much of a difference)

And how much more money are you prepared to spend on those cds? A lot of people already think that 'normal' cds are too expensive...

There is a market for those hardware mp3 players, because so many people have mp3s on their computer, which they want to hear on the bus or in the train too... And besides that, it is just a one-time-buy. whereas with those super cds: you buy one, and another, and another, ad nauseum.

[Roj]

People will buy them for bragging rights (a.k.a. penis measuring competition).

Marketing people are sneaky and know this :bandit:

Aaron
Yup - never underestimate the stupidity of the "more money than brains crowd". :)

[Roj]

There will be a market for 13.1 I imagine for home theatres perhaps, most likely at the high end of systems.Only if you have a **VERY** big room. I mean gargantuan as in "I have the high school gym here" type of gargantuan.

[Willow of Oz]

Real world... Does that level of audio sophistication matter in a world where it seems the vast majority of people are willing to accept substandard mp3 sound, at least in comparison to CDs?

...and you don't need 5.1 for substandard mp3s (currently listening to <unknown> by <unknown>). All you need are $5 headphones.

[Roj]

...and you don't need 5.1 for substandard mp3s (currently listening to <unknown> by <unknown>). All you need are $5 headphones.I'm not willing to go that far.

While mp3s are not CD quality, when done correctly they do produce quite decent sound. PC audio isn't a set of Martin-Logans but the better designed sound cards and speakers (*cough* Logitech and Creative Labs need not apply *cough*) also produce quite credible sound in the near-field environment they are designed for.

$5 headphones produce only noise.

I won't even start on why I have a bit of a problem with 5.1 for music.

[Todd The Kiwi]

man any more than two speakers pisses me right off.
i would own this setup, but i would not buy it...
it is nice to know what i could have if i wanted it though ;)

[acushla]

What do you guys think of this then?

13.1 Sound (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/06/news_6115922.html) :carrot:

WOW...personally...I can't wait. I think after that the only thing left is to just have the musicians play live in your living space. I am certain somewhere somebody is working on a Holographic Sound Stage where you not only hear your favourite group but you get to watch them play in 1:1 Real Time OMNI-VISION. No doubt there will be some special equipment involved.

[Roj]

What do you guys think of this then?

13.1 Sound (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/06/news_6115922.html) :carrot:

WOW...personally...I can't wait. I think after that the only thing left is to just have the musicians play live in your living space. I am certain somewhere somebody is working on a Holographic Sound Stage where you not only hear your favourite group but you get to watch them play in 1:1 Real Time OMNI-VISION. No doubt there will be some special equipment involved.
OK, I will start with why I have a problem with multi-channel for music.

If the music is recorded that way, then maybe it might be good... But wait a minute: what does 5.1 audio really buy you? When you go listen to live music, the performance is In Front Of You. What do you get from behind you or from the sides? The Sound Bouncing Off The Walls. Any attempt to place the listener in the middle of the performance is Totally Artificial And Unrealistic Gimmickry - in short, the same artificial crap that you get from movies in "full THX splendour".

The goal of audio has always been to recreate the music as closely to the original as possible. I would hate to see the industry devolve into cutesy-poo-golly-gee-whiz-gimmickry with fake surround effects ("FEEL The Performance - You Too Can Be In The Middle Of The Band!!"). That just cheapens the whole experience and adds another layer of artificiality to an industry already rife with snakeoil psuedo-technology such as "$200 a foot molecularly aligned audio cable". To me, this has a serious smell of El Toro Poo Poo about it.

[acushla]

The goal of audio has always been to recreate the music as closely to the original as possible.

Roj, believe me when I tell you that I know precisely what you mean in your dissertation. Understand me when I say that I think there are many who now accept the fact that a live performance is a live performance and a home entertainment environment is exactly that...an entertainment environment. And since it does not have the 'magic' of a live performance and in fact is NOT a live presentation, then let's enhance the experience in ways a live concert could never do. Then it becomes its own experience. I for one LOVE the THX experience...although I doubt that surprises you at this point!

[Roj]

The goal of audio has always been to recreate the music as closely to the original as possible.

Roj, believe me when I tell you that I know precisely what you mean in your dissertation. Understand me when I say that I think there are many who now accept the fact that a live performance is a live performance and a home entertainment environment is exactly that...an entertainment environment. And since it does not have the 'magic' of a live performance and in fact is NOT a live presentation, then let's enhance the experience in ways a live concert could never do. Then it becomes its own experience. I for one LOVE the THX experience...although I doubt that surprises you at this point!

Hey, I *loved* the experience of Master And Commander but do that to Peter White's "Glow" and I'll shoot ya. :)

[matty28carter]

personally i don't see the point in surround sound except when its used in films. even then its kinda a luxury that you don't really need. :pirate:

[acushla]

Hey, I *loved* the experience of Master And Commander but do that to Peter White's "Glow" and I'll shoot ya. :)

I really enjoyed 'Master and Commander' as well. Apart from everything else, any film which features music by Ralph Vaughn Williams is going to get my attention. As for Peter White's 'Glow'...I will have to search that one out. Roj...back in another thread we were discussing 'Soundboards and Speakers'. I was hoping you would go out on a limb and perhaps suggest 2 or 3 soundboards I might want to consider as alternatives to what I'm using now. In fact...I would be grateful to anybody who has suggestions in this regard. Thanks.

[acushla]

personally i don't see the point in surround sound except when its used in films. even then its kinda a luxury that you don't really need. :pirate:

Well of course you don't NEED it anymore than you NEED a TV set. It's just that it's nice to have. As for LUXURY...well...thats what North America is all about...LUXURY.

[Hanzo]

Well of course you don't NEED it anymore than you NEED a TV set. It's just that it's nice to have. As for LUXURY...well...thats what North America is all about...LUXURY.


I have to agree. In this speakers and surround sound, I've seen many people purchasing the cabling mentioned by Roj and speaker sets that costs 5 times the price of their TV and so on.

Surround Sound (whether artificially created or not) has to do with acoustics. The performance of a band in front of you does have surround sound just that is not created with speakers, is created naturally by the sound bouncing around in the stage. I agree with Roj in this: Anything above 5.1 is overkill, not only aesthetically (did I spell that right) but practically. Where the heck do you find 7.1 music and movies?

I've been on high end home theaters and low end ones... and there's not much to it... is the acoustics of the room you choose for it what makes the most difference. Obviously the quality of the gear you choose affect the quality of the sound, but you might still get decent surround if you have good acoustics.

Anyways, that is just my perception to all this.

[Roj]

Hey, I *loved* the experience of Master And Commander but do that to Peter White's "Glow" and I'll shoot ya. :)

I really enjoyed 'Master and Commander' as well. Apart from everything else, any film which features music by Ralph Vaughn Williams is going to get my attention. As for Peter White's 'Glow'...I will have to search that one out. Roj...back in another thread we were discussing 'Soundboards and Speakers'. I was hoping you would go out on a limb and perhaps suggest 2 or 3 soundboards I might want to consider as alternatives to what I'm using now. In fact...I would be grateful to anybody who has suggestions in this regard. Thanks.
Oh believe me, I'm definitely known for going out on that limb... :)

It has a lot to do with what you're going to be using it for and what you want to spend. before you blanch art the latter part of that sentence, let me assure you that you don't have to spend a lot of money. Basically, soundcards in the consumer genre have two uses:

- Music and movies
- Games

You as the end user decide which one is your primary use and then buy accordingly.

If you're primarily a gamer and listen to music occasionally, then go with a Creative Labs Audigy 2ZS. Any Creative Labs product above that is a waste of money, not just from a gaming perspective (you won't get any added functionality) but from an audio perspective (no matter what Creative Labs Audigy product you buy, it still won't match up to the competition for audio quality). You'll pay about $120CDN for an Audigy 2 ZS.

That segues nicely into the other choice - music and movies. If you primarily do music and movies and gaming is strictly a secondary concern, there is no reason whatsoever to buy a Creative Labs card, especially if you're using quality multimedia or hi-fi speakers. For those uses, I'd look at products by M-Audio (the Revolution line), AudioTrak (the Prodigy) or for more money Terratec. You can get the first two brands form any retailer who has an account with Ingram Micro. The third (Terratec) is available primarily form music stores. These cards will do gaming but do not have a dedicated gaming DSP so performance will be slower. Also, no other manufacturer will ever have an implementation of EAX equal to that of a Creative Labs card. Why? It's their API, they invented it and regardless of what anyone else says, the reality of it is that it's CLOSED.

Since I don't game on the PC, I personally own a M-Audio Revolution 7.1 and Monsoon Planar Media 14 flat-panel speakers. The M-Audio can be had for around $130CDN or you could opt for its little brother the Revolution 5.1 for around $100CDN. My personal experience with the Audigy 2ZD versus the Revo 7.1 in a head to head comparison using the same speakers and player is the following:

Play your speakers with the Revo. Now, take your speakers and two sheets of Kleenex tissue. Wet the Kleenex tissue. Drape one piece over each of your speakers. Play the same material again. You now have Audigy 2ZS sound. This is the effect with both sound cards played FLAT, which means that CMSS is disabled on the Audigy 2ZS. If you use CMSS, you can "pretty up" the sound and while it certainly becomes more listenable, it surely isn't the same linear and clean sound you get with the Revo. In short, it's totally warped out of proportion as far as I'm concerned - but I'm picky. :)

The most overpriced waste of money I see on the market today is the Audigy 4. You get typical Creative Labs "audio quality", a lot of doo-dads for doing home studio stuff (as if anyone in their right mind doing quality recording and mixing would use an Audigy product to begin with) and pay a simply ridiculous price running above $350CDN or so.

That's my 2 cents, seasonally adjusted for inflation. :)

[acushla]

If you primarily do music and movies and gaming is strictly a secondary concern, there is no reason whatsoever to buy a Creative Labs card, especially if you're using quality multimedia or hi-fi speakers. For those uses, I'd look at products by M-Audio (the Revolution line), AudioTrak (the Prodigy) or for more money Terratec. You can get the first two brands form any retailer who has an account with Ingram Micro. The third (Terratec) is available primarily form music stores. These cards will do gaming but do not have a dedicated gaming DSP so performance will be slower. Also, no other manufacturer will ever have an implementation of EAX equal to that of a Creative Labs card. Why? It's their API, they invented it and regardless of what anyone else says, the reality of it is that it's CLOSED.

Since I don't game on the PC, I personally own a M-Audio Revolution 7.1 and Monsoon Planar Media 14 flat-panel speakers. The M-Audio can be had for around $130CDN or you could opt for its little brother the Revolution 5.1 for around $100CDN. My personal experience with the Audigy 2ZD versus the Revo 7.1 in a head to head comparison using the same speakers and player is the following:

Play your speakers with the Revo. Now, take your speakers and two sheets of Kleenex tissue. Wet the Kleenex tissue. Drape one piece over each of your speakers. Play the same material again. You now have Audigy 2ZS sound. This is the effect with both sound cards played FLAT, which means that CMSS is disabled on the Audigy 2ZS. If you use CMSS, you can "pretty up" the sound and while it certainly becomes more listenable, it surely isn't the same linear and clean sound you get with the Revo. In short, it's totally warped out of proportion as far as I'm concerned - but I'm picky. :)

This is greatly appreciated, Roj (if you ever want advice of purchasing a camera...). I like people who are picky...usually indicates a sense of self worth and conscientious. Also like someone who recognizes 'best value' instead of just recklessly.purchasing the most expensive item they can afford mistakenly equating price with quality. Since I NEVER play games I will look long and hard at the boards you refer to for music and movies. I would still be interested in reading some other opinions...I'm certain a great number of you must have some! I have just learned that this conversation is going on in another thread...Chaintech AV-710, best budget stereo soundcard? (http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2798) I think I'll move over there.

[Roj]

This is greatly appreciated, Roj (if you ever want advice of purchasing a camera...).

Thank you - I just might take oyu up on that.

I like people who are picky...usually indicates a sense of self worth and conscientious. Also like someone who recognizes 'best value' instead of just recklessly.purchasing the most expensive item they can afford mistakenly equating price with quality. Since I NEVER play games I will look long and hard at the boards you refer to for music and movies.

Thanks for the kind words and good luck on your quest. From the perspective of speakers, you may find this link useful:

http://neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Guides/speakerguide/index.html

It's not a new article but the concepts are still viable.

Cheers!

[acushla]

[/QUOTE]If you primarily do music and movies and gaming is strictly a secondary concern, there is no reason whatsoever to buy a Creative Labs card, especially if you're using quality multimedia or hi-fi speakers. For those uses, I'd look at products by M-Audio (the Revolution line), AudioTrak (the Prodigy) or for more money Terratec.[/QUOTE]

Further to our conversation I decided what I needed to do first and foremost was to learn about the sound cards I already have...which meant I needed to find out exactly where my Creative SB Live! Value (WDM) card was and how to get it to work. After much trial and error I decided to go on line and see if I could track down a manual. Which is what I should have done in the first place as about a minute after reading I finally had sound. It turns out my ATI tuner was a curve ball...but now it's working. I find the difference between the SoundMAX and this card to be night and day...the Creative sounds so much better. Keeping in mind the repeated statement in the article you advised me to read (an excellent piece of writing, by the way...thanks) where the emphasis is put on YOU to determine what sound YOU like...do you still feel that I would have much to gain by purchasing the M-Audio Revolution 7.1? It is too bad that you are not able to audition sound cards before you buy...would make things a little easier...nevertheless...that's why we enquire from people who have first hand experience.

[Roj]

Keeping in mind the repeated statement in the article you advised me to read (an excellent piece of writing, by the way...thanks)

Thank you. - that was the first full-blown article I published on the web and it remains my favorite. :)

do you still feel that I would have much to gain by purchasing the M-Audio Revolution 7.1? It is too bad that you are not able to audition sound cards before you buy...would make things a little easier...nevertheless...that's why we enquire from people who have first hand experience.

Let me put it this way:

If you thought the Live was that much better than the SoundMAX, prepare to be shocked out of your tree by the Revo. I had a Live! No offense but it lasted a month and then I replaced it with a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz which was head and shoulders above it for audio quality. The Revo is significantly better than the Santa Cruz - it's clearer, crisper, cleaner, has more depth and presence and overall just walks away from it

That should tell you where the Live! sits on that totem pole and what you should expect by buying a Revo.

[acushla]

Thank you. - that was the first full-blown article I published on the web and it remains my favourite. :)



Let me put it this way:

If you thought the Live was that much better than the SoundMAX, prepare to be shocked out of your tree by the Revo. I had a Live! No offence but it lasted a month and then I replaced it with a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz which was head and shoulders above it for audio quality. The Revo is significantly better than the Santa Cruz - it's clearer, crisper, cleaner, has more depth and presence and overall just walks away from it

That should tell you where the Live! sits on that totem pole and what you should expect by buying a Revo.

Wow, I had no idea that you were the author of the article...confirms my initial impressions that you have a talent for expressing yourself with the written word. I felt then that you should consider doing some serious writing. With this article I see you are one step ahead of me...keep up the good work and if I might be so bold...perhaps you could inform me of any other articles (or the like) that you publish. I did some enquiring around town in regard to the Revo and what you say about it is confirmed by everybody I speak to. My computer will go in for its bi-yearly check up and cleaning in a couple of months...I will have the board installed at the same time.

[Roj]

Wow, I had no idea that you were the author of the article...confirms my initial impressions that you should seriously consider doing some serious writing. Seems you have...keep up the good work and if I might be so bold...perhaps you could inform me of any other articles (or the like) that you publish. I did some enquiring around town and everything you say about the Revo is confirmed by everybody I speak to. My computer will go in for its bi-yearly check up and cleaning in a couple of months...I will have the board installed at the same time.

Thanks for the kind words. I did a few other pieces (I generally don't have much time to spend on writing), but the most recent one I did was this one:

http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=570

I see you're in Toronto, so if I may, I'd like to recommend a set of speakers you may still be able to get that will be a fitting companion to the Revo. They are the Monsoon Planar Media 14s (I own two sets of these). When the company was closed by Eastech in Singapore (they were a Canadian company bought by Eastech for their technology), Radio Shack bought up the remaining stock. They generally sell them as clearance stock for $100CDN - the speakers originally retailed for $225CDN and were worth every penny, easily surpassing the Klipsc pro media 2.1 system for clarity, soundstage and detail. Check out the various Radio Shack stores in your area and ask them if they have any or if they'll contact the other stores and check for you. You may have to explain to them that they're flat panel. IMO a better pair of mutimedia speakers cannot be had at twice the price.

Here they are:

http://www.biline.ca/monsson.htm

You'll have to go after them now though; if they're still around, they're all but gone. I saw a set here in town (Ottawa) three weeks ago - they were gone the next weekend.

[acushla]

Thanks for the kind words. I did a few other pieces (I generally don't have much time to spend on writing), but the most recent one I did was this one:

http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=570

I see you're in Toronto, so if I may, I'd like to recommend a set of speakers you may still be able to get that will be a fitting companion to the Revo. They are the Monsoon Planar Media 14s (I own two sets of these). When the company was closed by Eastech in Singapore (they were a Canadian company bought by Eastech for their technology), Radio Shack bought up the remaining stock. They generally sell them as clearance stock for $100CDN - the speakers originally retailed for $225CDN and were worth every penny, easily surpassing the Klipsc pro media 2.1 system for clarity, soundstage and detail. Check out the various Radio Shack stores in your area and ask them if they have any or if they'll contact the other stores and check for you. You may have to explain to them that they're flat panel. IMO a better pair of mutimedia speakers cannot be had at twice the price.

Here they are:

http://www.biline.ca/monsson.htm

You'll have to go after them now though; if they're still around, they're all but gone. I saw a set here in town (Ottawa) three weeks ago - they were gone the next weekend.

It would seem that you always give good advice! I searched around the Radio Shack web site to no avail and then ended up using the 'contact us' and explained the situation and asked if they would search their data base and see if they might track a pair of these speakers for me. After that I went into GOOGLE (my personal favourite search engine) and was very discouraged by my findings. The best I could come up with was this site :

http://www.global-online-store.com/search.php?mode=electronics&search=Monsoon

Although they do not have the 14s in stock (and no real indication that they ever will) you can add your name to a waiting list and if they find a pair through another seller (used or new) they will nofify you. They do this through AMAZON.COM. They do have a good number of other Monsoon Models to choose from including model numbers: Planner Media 9, 9LCD Flat Panel, MM-505, MM-700, MM-1000 and MM-2000. Perhaps you could comment on any or all of these. And now for something completely different...I am certain I am not the only one who is curious as to where you are going on your trip. Good thing for Internet Cafes...we won't have to miss any of your postings. Perhaps QUINTESSENTIAL could begin a new forum...How I am Enjoying My Trip or Glad Your Not Here. Whatever.

[Roj]

It would seem that you always give good advice!

I try. :)

They do have a good number of other Monsoon Models to choose from including model numbers: Planner Media 9

I own a set of those as well as a set of MH-505s and MH-500s (my first pair of Monsoons). The PM9s are hooked to my wife's Santa Cruz (they were mine before I acquired the 14s). They're excellent speakers, although since they're less powerful, they lack a bit more in the mid bass. They use the same satellites as the 14s (ergonomnics notwithstanding) - they just have more power goint to them and flat panels are hungry little beasts.

And now for something completely different...I am certain I am not the only one who is curious as to where you are going on your trip.


Well, I'm going out to Calgary to see my folks in an emergency. The flight is at 7AM tomorrow and I'll be gone for a week. . My dad who is 83 and has Parkinsons fell and broke his hip last Saturday and the drugs are conflicting with his Parkinsons medication making him a bit difficult to deal with. He has already had surgery for the hip on Sunday (I'm not sure what they did but it was aparrently a bad break) and mom is with him night and day, which is to say she's not eating or sleeping. She just turned 80. I'm likely going to be living at the hospital to give her a breather. I'll be gone for seven days.

Take care and I'll see y'all in a bit.

[madjo]

And now for something completely different...I am certain I am not the only one who is curious as to where you are going on your trip.

Well, I'm going out to Calgary to see my folks in an emergency. The flight is at 7AM tomorrow. My dad who is 83 and has Parkinsons fell and broke his hip last Saturday and the drugs are conflicting with his Parkinsons medication making him a bit difficult to deal with. He has already had surgery for the hip on Sunday (I'm not sure what they did but it was aparrently a bad break) and mom is with him night and day, which is to say she's not eating or sleeping. She just turned 80. I'm likely going to be living at the hospital to give her a breather. I'll be gone for seven days.

Take care and I'll see y'all in a bit.
Could luck with your parents.. especially your father.

sorry, I'm not so good with words :)

[Roj]

Could luck with your parents.. especially your father.

sorry, I'm not so good with words :)

You're great with words. Thanks, mon. :)

[acushla]

And now for something completely different...I am certain I am not the only one who is curious as to where you are going on your trip.


Well, I'm going out to Calgary to see my folks in an emergency. The flight is at 7AM tomorrow and I'll be gone for a week. . My dad who is 83 and has Parkinson's fell and broke his hip last Saturday and the drugs are conflicting with his Parkinson's medication making him a bit difficult to deal with. He has already had surgery for the hip on Sunday (I'm not sure what they did but it was apparently a bad break) and mom is with him night and day, which is to say she's not eating or sleeping. She just turned 80. I'm likely going to be living at the hospital to give her a breather. I'll be gone for seven days.

Take care and I'll see y'all in a bit.

I am very sorry to hear about your father and the reason for your trip. I'm certain that it means a great deal to both of them that you were concerned enough to be with them in this time of need. I trust, in this case, that I can speak for all of us here at the QUINTESSENTIAL forum when I say our thoughts and best wishes are with you.