BASS Sound System Plug-in

[shaohao]

Hi, everyone:
This is Shao Hao.
I've finished my new input plug-in "BASS Sound System" for Quintessential Player. I post it here for beta test!

BASS (http://www.un4seen.com/) is a excellent sound system. This plug-in can play MP*, OGG and MOD files. Also stream media.
There are two mode you can choose:

"Decoding" mode--You can use BASS's decoding core and playback with others output plug-in.
"Playback" mode--When your output method is NOT "Decoding", plug-in will enable playback mode automatically. NO output plug-in is needed, 'cause BASS will do it itself. Visual plug-in won't work under this mode. But you will got a better sound quality and faster seekings.
NOTE: This is a BETA version. Use it for your own risk. RELEASE verion will be released when beta finished.
Please post your wishlists and bug reports here!

ChangeLog:
I've created a Project named "QPlug-ins" on Sourceforge.net, and upload the source-code to CVS.
Visit the Project QPlug-ins (https://sourceforge.net/projects/qplugins/)

[Qaz]

Connfig looks wrong. And that sort of a makes hard to read the instruction 'bout restarting plug-in...

[krazyd]

Wow, thanks Shaohao! Looking forward to playing around with this plugin. :cool:

[brian]

Shao Hao, thanks very much for this! I've tried out the plugin with some mp3 streams, and with some ogg files and mp3 files on my hard drive. Some first results, please:

(1) Decoding mode seems to work fine, except for point (2) below.

(2) If I change the output plugin selection when in decoding mode, I have to restart QCD in order to get the BASS plugin working again.

(3) In system mode, ogg files and mp3 files on my hard drive will play, but mp3 streams will not play.

Looking forward to more news!

[hedge]

Alright, this is a start, but the plugin is very problematic at this stage.
Problems I've found so far:
All these have occured when Bass is in decoder mode.
1. If i start a song by double clicking it in the playlist then quickly hit the stop button, qcd freezes for about a second then jumps to the next song in the playlist and starts playing it. This has happened with OGG's and MP3's so far.

2. When playing MOD's, the time displayed keeps reseting to 0:00 everytime a new bar is started (like when one section is finished... its late ill explain it better tomorrow ;) )

3. The visualisations always seems to be maxed out (or close to), even when theres a very quiet part in a song.

4. kbps info isn't there anywhere :(

5. When i try to change skin modes, QCD will regularly crash on me.

And also, I can't get it to change to full output mode, everytime i try to change the setting and restart the plugin it keeps resetting to decoder mode.
Mind you, this is probably because of the crappy onboard sound on this computer.

[jawpr]

When playing mp3's, if I have the wave-out plug-in selected and click the stop button, Qcd just changes to the next track and keeps playing. If I click the pause button and then click the stop button, QCD will stop playing just fine. However, if I have the direct-sound plug-in selected while playing mp3's and click the stop button, it works just fine. Thanks for the plug-in!

Edit - When in system mode with no out-put plug-ins checked,after closing QCD and restarting QCD,it turns my Asio plug-in back on.

[madjo]

I can confirm the not-stopping bug.
when I just press the stop button, it stops for a second, to skip to the next track
when I press pause first and then press stop, it does stop as it should.

it only does that when I've set it up to use the wave-out option, whenever I have set it to "decode" it works as it should. Except load streaming media... (at least, SomaFM didn't want to start then, whereas with the wave-device option it did)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Sweet! This thing works without an output plugin on my computer :p. No issues with preferences window here, see pic. So far i pressed play and so far it is advancing to next track no problem. Too bad it doesnt work with the visuals...can this be fixed?

[Tokelil]

I have the same config dialog problems as posted above.

Anyone has any good links on the BASS decoder? Dithering methods used etc.? (Just got curious about implementation details after working a bit on MAD)

[brian]

Anyone has any good links on the BASS decoder? Dithering methods used etc.? (Just got curious about implementation details after working a bit on MAD)
There's some basic information here (probably doesn't go into enough detail for your purposes):

http://support.xmplay.com/Guide_Options_Device.html

[jkrzok]

The not-stopping thing might not be a BASS problem. I've had that self-same problem with mp3s using both MAD and Q's default mp3 plug-in. So far BASS has been problem free for me, with the exception of the kbps not reporting. Oh and the visual thing too. But that seems kind of subjective to me; my jury is still out on that.

[madjo]

The not-stopping thing might not be a BASS problem. I've had that self-same problem with mp3s using both MAD and Q's default mp3 plug-in. So far BASS has been problem free for me, with the exception of the kbps not reporting. Oh and the visual thing too. But that seems kind of subjective to me; my jury is still out on that.
it only started happen to me, when I started using BASS with the wave-out device set up. before I never had this problem.

[jkrzok]

kpbs info is displayed for streams (mp3). Now the not stopping thing is happening with BASS too.

[hedge]

Sweet! This thing works without an output plugin on my computer :p. No issues with preferences window here, see pic. So far i pressed play and so far it is advancing to next track no problem. Too bad it doesnt work with the visuals...can this be fixed?
Hmmm i still can't get it to work in output mode... And this time using a different onboard sound chip (same as yours, the AC97 :( )
Also, with mod's the timer is also not counting correctly, instead of counting seconds properly it seems to be dependant on the speed of the specific mod.

And the thing with the timer resetting every so often, it happens after each pattern (as its called in mod plug tracker...).

[hedge]

And the crashing after skin mode changes also aren't happening on this computer, so its probably a problem with a plugin or something on the other computer.

EDIT:
nope the vis's aren't working fine all of a sudden :P it was just me forgetting that i had enabled the quinn mod plugin again ;)

[jkrzok]

It seems that I've lost the ability to 'physically delete' files from the playlist when using BASS. I'd get the message that the file is being used by another program. Switching to the default mp3 plugin restored the ability.

[Roj]

It seems that I've lost the ability to 'physically delete' files from the playlist when using BASS. I'd get the message that the file is being used by another program. Switching to the default mp3 plugin restored the ability.
It doesn't look like we've got seamless / gapless mp3 playback yet a la XMPLay unless I'm much mistaken. Also, what's the story on diterhing / soundshaping?

[jkrzok]

It seems to have a problem when first trying to connect to a stream. I'll get an error message to the tune of 'unable to open output plugin.' Then I'll just reopen that stream and it will play fine. All other streams opened subsequently open normally.

It's sad that mostly all I see are bug reports. Let me say that while it's a little rough around the edges it has become my default input plugin and plays just fine and sounds great. Many thanks to Shao Hao.

[madjo]

It's sad that mostly all I see are bug reports. Let me say that while it's a little rough around the edges it has become my default input plugin and plays just fine and sounds great. Many thanks to Shao Hao.
Indeed despite the few problems I've had encountered with it, I also use it a my default plugin at the moment :)... good job Shao Hao.

[jkrzok]

It seems that streamng titles stop refreshing after a while.

And if it wasn't Miles Davis streaming right now, I would investigate further... :bandit: Gotta love Radio Paradise. Patsy Cline then Miles Davis.

[Roj]

It seems to have a problem when first trying to connect to a stream. I'll get an error message to the tune of 'unable to open output plugin.' Then I'll just reopen that stream and it will play fine. All other streams opened subsequently open normally.

It's sad that mostly all I see are bug reports. Let me say that while it's a little rough around the edges it has become my default input plugin and plays just fine and sounds great. Many thanks to Shao Hao.As far as I'm concerned, this BETA should continue for MONTHS. Why? Because this plugin should be BULLETPROOF and a SHOWCASE for the player when it's done.

It should have seamless / gapless mp3 and ogg playback.

It should have flawless streaming and full title support.

It should have dithering and soundshaping.

It should have flawless seeking.

It should work flawlessly with the playlist and the Crossfader.

It should have flawless EQ and VIS support.

It should be ROCK SOLID STABLE and as BUG FREE as is (in)humanly possible.

In short it should be PERFECT.

And this community, including myself should do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get it that way.

Why?

Because it should become the STANDARD against which ALL plugins are measured.

It's our last chance.

[brian]

We need to hear back from Shao Hao on the various issues raised here. But I don't agree that this is our last chance; if one person can develop a BASS plugin, so can somebody else.

[Roj]

We need to hear back from Shao Hao on the various issues raised here. But I don't agree that this is our last chance; if one person can develop a BASS plugin, so can somebody else.
Well, BASS isn't free. Shaohao ponied up the cash to buy a license for it. I don't think too many others would. Also, devs for QCD plugins have not been forthcoming in the past and I can't see the trend changing much in the near future unless the demise of Winamp spurs more people to experience the excellence that is QCD. Extrapolating from that possibility, new people experiencing the player will notice a marked paucity of *finished* quality playback plugins and that could be a turn-off. If people get turned off, then so will devs. It's a vicious circle which has killed many another software package and even operating systems (OS/2 comes immediately to mind) and that's why I say it's likely our last chance.

I mean, where is Case today?

[brian]

Seems like a better then even chance, if Shao Hao has bought a licence; it makes it that much more likely that he'll see it through, which he hasn't always been able to do with his other plugins.

By the way, how come you (and others) put so much effort a while back into trying to convince me that there are a whole bunch of active QCD input plugin developers out there? I never did believe it.

[shaohao]

THX everyone for your help to test:)


Config UI: Fixed! Now, I use "MS Sans Serif 8". Wish this will work fine.
Mode Switch: Output method change will affect after a new track play. You don't need to restart QCD.
System Mode for Stream Playing: Bug fixed. It should work OK.
Not-Stopping: I've rewritten the code. If you click "Play" button then quickly hit the "Stop" button. It should stop really.
But for stream media. Please don't swich you hit too fast!! I have no idea how to solve this problem. Otherwise, you will get a "Unable to open output plug-in", 'cause BASS does net connect by itself.
Max Out Visualisations: If you enable the 32-bit floating-point. the data sent to play will be in float format. I think QCD's visualisation system can't work fine with this format.
Bitrate Display: Bug fixed. But I can only display averagebitrate now. VBR display is under development and I'm getting information from the author of BASS about how to get and display VBR.
Skin Mode Change Crash: It should be NOT a bug:)
About Output Plug-in: There is no output plug-in needed under System Mode. But...So far as I know, playback will stop when you check or uncheck a ouput plug-in.
Physically Delete: Bug fixed.
Time Display for MOD files: Sorry, Bug is still ON :(. I'm trying to fix it. But I think you can play MOD files well, just the bug of time display.
Stream Title: Please try again. I also update and add some stream functions.
Others: [ghighlight]Seamless, gapless[/highlight]--Roj,I want to know the exact meaning of them, So I will think whether I can write codes for them. dithering, soundshaping--I've no idea about them and I don't know how to realize them. I havn't researched so deeply, But reaplaygain may be done later. Flawless Seeking--Under system mode, I think seeking works very fast. Flawlessly with the playlist and the Crossfader--?? Flawless EQ and VIS: I think I can do that after all of the main bug s fixed.ROCK SOLID STABLE and as BUG FREE as is (in)humanly possible--??

NOTE: This plug-in is free forever, No money is needed for it, for BASS:)

Goto first post download new version

[Tokelil]

Nice Shahao! :)
About dithering and soundshaping it should make clear difference in sound quality and is used it all profecional gear.
(Dithering being a method for getting a higher percieved resolution when going from f.e. 32->24 bit. It is done by adding some "white" low level noise to the signal, so signals that without dithering would be rounded down to 0, now might still be present in the sound. Sound shaping is a technique where the "white noise" is move to areas of the sound that are less likely to be noticed. I believe when implemented it would be the last thing that is done before sending the sound to the output plug-in/hardware. In this case it would be something like taking the 32bit float data and running it through the dithering/soundshaping algorithmes when converting it to PCM format (16 or 24 int))


About BASS from their website:
"The BASS library is free for non-money making use"

[brian]

Shao Hao, many thanks. Two points, please:

(1) Yes, I can now play most mp3 streams in system mode (a few won't play and cause a loud buzzing noise to come from my speakers).

(2) There seems to be something wrong with the stream buffer setting box - it won't go above 9 seconds.

[jawpr]

shaohao - It still turns my asio plug-in on when I am in system mode playing music with no output plug-ins and stop playing and close QCD, then reopen QCD. AS long as I don't close qcd, it plays without any output plug-in but if I close qcd and start it back up, it turns on the asio plug-in every time.

[shaohao]

to jawpr: In System Mode, BASS won't use any output plug-in. So...Even if the ASIO output plug-in is enabled, BASS still won't use it! I can't figure it out why this happen. I'll have it a check.

to brian: About stream, I set the buffer length to 10 seconds. It should be set from 5-60 seconds. I don't know why it can't go above 9 seconds. I'll also have a check on it :)

[brian]

shaohao - It still turns my asio plug-in on when I am in system mode playing music with no output plug-ins and stop playing and close QCD, then reopen QCD. AS long as I don't close qcd, it plays without any output plug-in but if I close qcd and start it back up, it turns on the asio plug-in every time.
I suggest you simply keep your usual output plugin checked at all times. As Shao Hao says, the BASS plugin in system mode doesn't make use of any output plugin, so there's no need to uncheck your usual one.

[Roj]

Seems like a better then even chance, if Shao Hao has bought a licence; it makes it that much more likely that he'll see it through, which he hasn't always been able to do with his other plugins.

By the way, how come you (and others) put so much effort a while back into trying to convince me that there are a whole bunch of active QCD input plugin developers out there? I never did believe it.Believe it or not, I'm optimistic by nature. I was hoping, given the influx of efforts by folks like Shao, Case, Tokelil, the gentleman who took over Shaohao's efforts with the Winamp Plugin Manager (I'm *terrible* with names) and several others whose nyms escape me, that things would improve. Alas it was not so which is why I gave you full credence in an earlier post for your original assessment.

In short, I was wrong and you were right. :)

[Roj]

Seamless, gaplessOK, this is what it means:

If I play a trance mix, there should be absolutely no pause or gap between the songs, despite them being different files. I seem to remember a discussion where this was aachieved using a flag in the mp3 if it was encoded with versions of LAME past 3.91. Also i recall discussion to do with buffer settings and holding the sound driver open, if that makes any sense.

dithering, soundshapingThose are functions that MAD implements as well as XMPlay. Basically, the mp3 is decoded to 24-bit (in the case of MAD) or 32-bit (in the case of BASS) precision and then dithering and soundshaping is applied to the result to render it down to standard 16-bit. This brings out more of the detail in the resulting sound. It's an old trick in audio circles. Here's a thread on the XMPlay board that provides a bit of insight:

http://www.un4seen.com/forum/?board=2;action=display;threadid=3175;start=msg209 85

Check Rob Leslie's site (and MAD source code) for more detailed information. Ian should also be able to give you some as well since he put the functionality in XMPlay. I know how it works but have no idea how to program it.

NOTE:

In the XMPLay thread I say that I cannot hear a difference. That's because I was using my Revo which is a 24-bit card. I *can* hear a difference with my Santa Cruz which is a 16-bit card.

Flawlessly with the playlist and the CrossfaderBugs were reported by other folks in the past that were linked to playlist and Crossfader functionality. I'm not saying that your plugin has these problems - only that it should not. :)

ROCK SOLID STABLE and as BUG FREE as is (in)humanly possibleThat's why WE'RE here - to Beta test the plugin and ensure that between your efforts and ours it ends up in that state. :)

NOTE: This plug-in is free forever, No money is needed for it, for BASS:)Thank you very much Shaohao - that's very generous of you. This one could be QCD's Gold Standard against which all others are measured and we greatly appreciate it.

[Tokelil]

Check Rob Leslie's site (and MAD source code) for more detailed information. The dithering used in the source for MADPlayer (or what its called) isn't very good and better algorithms exists out there... (Of course it is better than nothing) Cant find any info on the algorithm used in XMPlayer.

[Roj]

The dithering used in the source for MADPlayer (or what its called) isn't very good and better algorithms exists out there... (Of course it is better than nothing) Cant find any info on the algorithm used in XMPlayer.
Give Ian a yell and see if he reciprocates...

[madjo]

THX everyone for your help to test:)

[list]
Not-Stopping: I've rewritten the code. If you click "Play" button then quickly hit the "Stop" button. It should stop really.
But for stream media. Please don't swich you hit too fast!! I have no idea how to solve this problem. Otherwise, you will get a "Unable to open output plug-in", 'cause BASS does net connect by itself.
hmm now it is even worse, I can't get my QCD to shut up.

I have set BASS to the wave-out device ('c-media wave device' in my case). and when I click stop, it stops the current track, and then starts the next.
In the first beta, you could press pause and then stop to completely stop it, but now, whatever you do, it will simply stop the current song and start the next.

This, however, does not happen when you have set BASS to 'decoding'.

[brian]

This is beginning to look promising...

Now that all the desiderata for the perfect plugin have been run up the flagpole and duly saluted, let's support Shao Hao in giving first priority to bug-free basic functionality, with enhanced functionality to follow a bit later as he has the opportunity. Enhancement overload at this stage is not recommended.

[brian]

I have set BASS to the wave-out device ('c-media wave device' in my case). and when I click stop, it stops the current track, and then starts the next.

I'm not experiencing any problems of this kind when handling an ogg playlist, with my soundcard as the selected output in system mode.

[madjo]

I'm not experiencing any problems of this kind when handling an ogg playlist, with my soundcard as the selected output in system mode.
I'll try reinstalling it, and do some more tests.... but it has been quite persistent on my 'puter

[o2xygen]

I don't know about others but for me BASS is playing without any bass :ermm:
I have a 5.1 and the subwoofer seams dead...
I tried changing the Playback plugins from DirectSound that I am using to Waveout but nothing again... Actually waveout never worked well with any input plugin

[shaohao]

I don't know about others but for me BASS is playing without any bass :ermm:
I have a 5.1 and the subwoofer seams dead...
I tried changing the Playback plugins from DirectSound that I am using to Waveout but nothing again... Actually waveout never worked well with any input plugin
Hi, o2xygen:
I need your testing--Are you using a 5.1 sound-speaker? Do all of the speakers work fine under System Mode of BASS?

[o2xygen]

I moved the speakers so that I can have a clear hearing... I can hear sound coming from the Front Right Speaker and the Front Left Speaker... No sound comes from the rear speakers and the subwoofer is not working...
The center speaker is also not working, but it never gets to work with any input plugin (neither the default XAudio unless I enable the virtual 5.1 surround from the soundcard control panel)
To sum up...
Working:Front Left, Front Right
Not working: rear left, rear right,subwoofer,center

[shaohao]

I moved the speakers so that I can have a clear hearing... I can hear sound coming from the Front Right Speaker and the Front Left Speaker... No sound comes from the rear speakers and the subwoofer is not working...
The center speaker is also not working, but it never gets to work with any input plugin (neither the default XAudio unless I enable the virtual 5.1 surround from the soundcard control panel)
To sum up...
Working:Front Left, Front Right
Not working: rear left, rear right,subwoofer,center

THX, I'll fix it next version.

[madjo]

apart from all the problems I mentioned :) the good news is, that in beta2 the streams now also work for me in "decoding" mode :)

[matty28carter]

to brian: About stream, I set the buffer length to 10 seconds. It should be set from 5-60 seconds. I don't know why it can't go above 9 seconds. I'll also have a check on it :)

i see the problem. the box is only big enough to show one digit, it goes between 5 and 60 but you can only see the last digit. need to make the box bigger.

[shaohao]

beta3:

Goto first post download new version (http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23426#post23426)

beta...beta...:)

[brian]

Shao Hao, many thanks once again - some nice improvements here.

(1) I'm getting much better sound quality with this version, richer and with more bass. I don't have a multi-speaker system, I have my PC hooked up to my hi fi, but there's definitely a marked difference.

(2) What can you tell us about the internal equaliser, please? What bands is it applied to, and at what settings? XMPlay has a configurable equaliser, although it's only 5-band (63hz, 250hz, 1khz, 4khz, 16khz). I'm not saying I want a configurable one for your plugin, I'd just like to know what the equaliser is doing.

(3) The stream buffer setting box is now fine.

(4) For some reason there is no bitrate display with Live365 streams played through QCD. This isn't a big deal, but I thought I should mention it. The display is fine with Shoutcast streams.

(5) Just a very small point, please - in the BASS section of the QCD context menu, `stream saving' has been spelt `stram saving'.

Your hard work on this plugin is very much appreciated.

[shaohao]

(2) What can you tell us about the internal equaliser, please? What bands is it applied to, and at what settings? XMPlay has a configurable equaliser, although it's only 5-band (63hz, 250hz, 1khz, 4khz, 16khz). I'm not saying I want a configurable one for your plugin, I'd just like to know what the equaliser is doing.
BASS invoke DirectSound system to implement the EQ function (So you need DirectX 8 or above installed). Before implement it, you should tell it what to do and define a struct like this:

typedef struct _DSFXParamEq {
FLOAT fCenter;
FLOAT fBandwidth;
FLOAT fGain;
} DSFXParamEq, *LPDSFXParamEq;

Here: fCenter is the band value. XMPlayer only 5-band, but for QCD, you've got 10--80, 120, 250, 500, 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 12k and 16k.
as to fGain: I've converted it to match QCD's EQ value.
but for fBandwidth: I set it to default value--12. I don't know how to convert it to match QCD's EQ value--This is why I said "Maybe is sound not very good".
Here is the struct description about this struct on msdn:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directx/htm/dsfxparameq.asp

(4) For some reason there is no bitrate display with Live365 streams played through QCD. This isn't a big deal, but I thought I should mention it. The display is fine with Shoutcast streams.
In stream media system, the band radio station will send stream info in text format. There will be a section--such as "bitrate=192"--in it. I just grab it and display it on QCD. Maybe Live365 has no such text section in its stream info, so...no bitrate info for it.

(5) Just a very small point, please - in the BASS section of the QCD context menu, `stream saving' has been spelt `stram saving'.
I'll fix it.

[brian]

BASS invoke DirectSound system to implement the EQ function (So you need DirectX 8 or above installed). Before implement it, you should tell it what to do and define a struct like this:
Thanks for the explanation. I take it that you have already done this - you don't mean that the user has to do it?

[Qaz]

1) The issue with configuration dialog lookin wrong got fixed with the font change. Cheers on that :)

2) It's showin M1L3 for MP3s in the status field.

3) There's still an issue with the configuration dialog. I have to disable and re-enable the plug-in everytime I open the dialog. I can live with it if it's necessary for the changes to take action but I have to do it even when I don't do any changes to the settings.

[jkrzok]

I like the M1L3 thing. It's like visual confirmation of which plugin is active.

[shaohao]

3) There's still an issue with the configuration dialog. I have to disable and re-enable the plug-in everytime I open the dialog. I can live with it if it's necessary for the changes to take action but I have to do it even when I don't do any changes to the settings.
??
Sorry, I don't know what's the exact meaning of your words.
All of the change will take effect when next track playback starting. Some will take effect immediately such as VBR display.

[Qaz]

??
Sorry, I don't know what's the exact meaning of your words.
All of the change will take effect when next track playback starting. Some will take effect immediately such as VBR display.
What I mean is that I can't close the dialog by clicking OK or cancel button.

[shaohao]

What I mean is that I can't close the dialog by clicking OK or cancel button.
It should be OK. I can close it.
Anyone else has this problem?

What's your OS version?

[brian]

I'm getting some strange behaviour of QCD recently, which may or may not be related to the plugin. Sometimes QCD stops responding when I open my playlists menu from the `play' button and am about to click on an entry. I have to close the program down using Task Manager. I haven't been able to localise the problem yet because for some reason it isn't picked up by Dr Watson. So I'm going to uninstall the plugin for a while and see whether that makes a difference. I used to get a similar problem when using the MAD plugin, by the way.

[o2xygen]

To shaohao: I installed beta3 and I hear sound from the front left and front right speakers only... :ermm:

[Qaz]

What's your OS version?
Win2k

[hedge]

The 'Show average bitrate on vbr files' option seems to work in reverse to what it should. For instance, it displays the instant bitrate when the option is checked, and displays the average when it is not checked.

I'm not really sure if the average bitrate displayed is correct either. On a song which is encoded in good quality and is always a higher bitrate, yet is supposedly only 32kbps.

[madjo]

Whenever you change the output method now, there is some odd behaviour :)
The visuals start showing blockwaves (or distortions) as if there is a lot of noise... and the progressbar reaches the end, even before the song starts playing.

Whereas if you don't change it, the visuals show nothing (they don't appear to work), and the progress-slider works as it should.

This happened also under beta2, just hadn't noticed it until today, right before I upgraded.

The good news about any output method (in beta3) is, that I can now just click "stop" and QCD stops playing :)

[hedge]

Whenever you change the output method now, there is some odd behaviour :)
The visuals start showing blockwaves (or distortions) as if there is a lot of noise... and the progressbar reaches the end, even before the song starts playing.

Whereas if you don't change it, the visuals show nothing (they don't appear to work), and the progress-slider works as it should.

This happened also under beta2, just hadn't noticed it until today, right before I upgraded.

The good news about any output method (in beta3) is, that I can now just click "stop" and QCD stops playing :)
Yep the thing with the visuals happened to me before too. For a moment I thought ya had gotten visuals working in system mode :P

[Roj]

To shaohao: I installed beta3 and I hear sound from the front left and front right speakers only... :ermm:That's normal if you have a modern sound card. The only players that mirror sound to front and rear speakers fake it by intentionally sending a signal to the rear channels. If the player is working to spec, that should not happen because two channel sound is just that: two channel sound.

[shaohao]

To shaohao: I installed beta3 and I hear sound from the front left and front right speakers only... :ermm:Have you set your speakers correctly in Control Panel?

[madjo]

Yep the thing with the visuals happened to me before too. For a moment I thought ya had gotten visuals working in system mode :P
Using "output method: decoding" the visuals seem to work for me.. but somehow, it doesn't stop the song, when I click stop... that bug has returned for me :(

[o2xygen]

That's normal if you have a modern sound card. The only players that mirror sound to front and rear speakers fake it by intentionally sending a signal to the rear channels. If the player is working to spec, that should not happen because two channel sound is just that: two channel sound.
But with other input plugins (xaudio,mad) I hear sound from all 4 satelite speakers, even thought is faked, but not from center, and the subwoofer is working... With BASS a very low sound from the front speakers

[o2xygen]

Have you set your speakers correctly in Control Panel?
Yes it is set at pure 5,1 not virtual etc

[Roj]

But with other input plugins (xaudio,mad) I hear sound from all 4 satelite speakers, even thought is faked, but not from center, and the subwoofer is working... With BASS a very low sound from the front speakersMuted audio from the FRONTS? I thought that you weren't getting any audio from the REARS but that the fronts were fine. In that case, I don't know...

What sound card is it?

[shaohao]

I've released two sub-beta testing files on the firest post.
Please, o2xygen or others who have a 5.1/7.1 multi-speaker system to test it. Whether it work on your multi-speaker sound system.

Go to the first post to download test version.

[brian]

I'm getting some strange behaviour of QCD recently, which may or may not be related to the plugin. Sometimes QCD stops responding when I open my playlists menu from the `play' button and am about to click on an entry. I have to close the program down using Task Manager. I haven't been able to localise the problem yet because for some reason it isn't picked up by Dr Watson. So I'm going to uninstall the plugin for a while and see whether that makes a difference. I used to get a similar problem when using the MAD plugin, by the way.
I'm still getting the problem, so the plugin can't be the culprit. I guess that's good news!

[Roj]

I'm still getting the problem, so the plugin can't be the culprit. I guess that's good news!
What other plugins do you have installed?

[brian]

What other plugins do you have installed?
Thanks for asking. I've just uninstalled QCD and done a clean install, adding plugins one by one. No firm conclusions as yet, but the Winamp mpg123 plugin is a possible suspect. The strange thing is that the problem has only appeared in the last week, coinciding with the time I first installed the BASS plugin, whereas I've had the mpg123 plugin installed for ages. I may raise a shout in the help section of the forum if the problem persists, so don't let's hijack this thread.

[o2xygen]

Muted audio from the FRONTS? I thought that you weren't getting any audio from the REARS but that the fronts were fine. In that case, I don't know...

What sound card is it?
No no no no... I get sound from the 2 front satelites but NOT from the rear...
Its a cheap one... A cmedia 8738 something

To shaohao: I tried the 5.1 beta3... This time, I used the system mode you said about, I selected the soundcard and unchecked the playback plugins (correct?)

Only this time I get sound from the CENTER speaker ONLY... but not from any other speaker... Neither the fronts nor the rears... I

With decoding mode, i get the same result i got with previous releases

[Roj]

No firm conclusions as yet, but the Winamp mpg123 plugin is a possible suspect.
Yup.

No surprise here. That one seems to have problems "playing nice" which is why I stopped using it.

[madjo]

BASS also seems to have a problem handling Wave files. Even though I have the Quinnware QV output plugin enabled and placed on top of the list, it seems that BASS tries to play that file, resulting in a lot of noise and a crash of QCD when you click stop, pause, next or previous.
When I use the Quinnware MP3 output plugin, that problem with wav files does not exist.

[brian]

The BASS plugin also tries to play streams in AAC format (Spinamp) - I have to disable it so that the streams will be picked up by the correct plugin (Nullsoft MPEG decoder).

[shaohao]

New beta released.

Multi-Speaker support:
I've found how to solve it, but I have to rewrite some fo my code.

WAV file:
I'll test it.

AAC Stream:
I have no idea about it, 'cause BASS do it by itself.

Go to the first post to download test version (http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23426#post23426)

[brian]

Shao Hao, thanks very much for the update. Could you very kindly just give us an idea of what you have changed in this version, please?

As far as I know, BASS doesn't support AAC - in XMPlay you have to install a separate plugin (such as the Nullsoft MPEG decoder) in order to play AAC streams. I guess the fact that in QCD the BASS plugin seems to block the path to the Nullsoft decoder (in my Winamp plugins folder) may be a quirk of QCD rather than of the BASS plugin. Of course Paul would be the best person to clarify this, but in any case it's no big deal so please don't worry about it.

Thanks again - it's good to see this plugin in active development.

[matty28carter]

BTW:
After this beta version. I will take time on Dither, NoiseShaping & ReplayGain--Maybe and Multi-Speaker support (I must reconstruct my code for Multi-Speaker support).

As Paul said: Enjoy the Silence:chinese: .

Hope its not too longa silence!
:silly:

[Roj]

Hope its not too longa silence!
:silly:
He nails down that list and includes seamless / gapless playback of OGG and MP3 and I will be utterly ecstatic. :)

[shaohao]

Shao Hao, thanks very much for the update. Could you very kindly just give us an idea of what you have changed in this version, please?

I've written down the changelog in the first post.

As to the AAC Stream:
I have a idea to fix it. But I think it will take a few time when playing AAC (or other unsupported stream), 'cause BASS will try to connect the stream and decode it. If it found the stream is unsupported, it will return FALSE. So, when you play a AAC stream, BASS decode it first and other plug-in latter.

I won't fix this bug until next version.

[Inthewoods]

I have noticed one little quirk in all 4 beta versions of this plugin. While I'm not a big fan of DSPs, I do occasionally use them, in particular Shibatch's SuperEQ.

If the BASS plugin's 32 bit box is checked, DSP effects go away at the end of each song, i.e., the next song starts with the DSP effect disabled, even though the DSP plugin itself is still enabled. I then have to stop QCD, disable and then re-enable the DSP, then restart the song. This problem does not exist when running the BASS plugin at (I'm assuming) 16 bits, with the box unchecked.

The good news is that, at least on my system, the sound is superb, and the plugin is very stable (my speaker setup is 2.1). Thank you, shaohao!!

[MLO]

As to the AAC Stream:
I have a idea to fix it. But I think it will take a few time when playing AAC (or other unsupported stream), 'cause BASS will try to connect the stream and decode it. If it found the stream is unsupported, it will return FALSE. So, when you play a AAC stream, BASS decode it first and other plug-in latter.

I won't fix this bug until next version.
Hey Shao, all you need to do is change your GetMediaSupported function so that it returns 0 if medianame starts with uvox://. AAC streams can start with http also, but there isn't too much you can do about those. :)

[brian]

I have noticed one little quirk in all 4 beta versions of this plugin. While I'm not a big fan of DSPs, I do occasionally use them, in particular Shibatch's SuperEQ.

If the BASS plugin's 32 bit box is checked, DSP effects go away at the end of each song, i.e., the next song starts with the DSP effect disabled, even though the DSP plugin itself is still enabled. I then have to stop QCD, disable and then re-enable the DSP, then restart the song. This problem does not exist when running the BASS plugin at (I'm assuming) 16 bits, with the box unchecked.
I believe Winamp DSP plugins only operate at 16 bit, with whatever player you use them. By the way, I find that they don't operate at all with the BASS plugin in system mode, which I guess is to be expected since it doesn't go through QCD's usual output channels.

[brian]

I've written down the changelog in the first post.
What does `custom extensions' refer to in the changelog, please? Is it the options on the Advanced tab? If so, could you tell me more about them, please?

[shaohao]

What does `custom extensions' refer to in the changelog, please? Is it the options on the Advanced tab? If so, could you tell me more about them, please?
In General Tab, you can edit the extensions which BASS supported. This will be useful in the future.


Hey Shao, all you need to do is change your GetMediaSupported function so that it returns 0 if medianame starts with uvox://. AAC streams can start with http also, but there isn't too much you can do about those.
THX, I'll have a try.

[shaohao]

I've just upload a beta version for Multi-speaker testing.
Please, anyone who have a multi-speaker system, test it.

Go to the first post to download test version

Read my red color words and follow those steps.

[o2xygen]

Shaohao:
Congratulations... It works... :ditsy: All speakers seem to work on my 5.1 system

BUT

the sound is not coming out right... Its very choppy...
But you are in the right road

And there is a small mistake, instead of speakers it says speakes :reallymad

[matty28carter]

Every time i close QCD whilst using BASS (normal, not 5.1) i get an error when i close QCD (QCD has experienced a crash in such and such error) and every time it brings the DrWatsonPostmortum thingy with it.

[hedge]

Every time i close QCD whilst using BASS (normal, not 5.1) i get an error when i close QCD (QCD has experienced a crash in such and such error) and every time it brings the DrWatsonPostmortum thingy with it.
Yep same here:
The instruction at "0x00478631" referenced memory at "0x00caafa8". The memory could not be "read"
Happens just about everytime i close QCD with BASS enabled.

[brian]

Every time i close QCD whilst using BASS (normal, not 5.1) i get an error when i close QCD (QCD has experienced a crash in such and such error) and every time it brings the DrWatsonPostmortum thingy with it.
No problems of that kind here (but I'm not using the version with the 5.1 option).

[brian]

BASS invoke DirectSound system to implement the EQ function (So you need DirectX 8 or above installed). ... I've converted it to match QCD's EQ value. "Maybe is sound not very good".
Just to report that the QCD equaliser works fine with the plugin as far as functionality goes. I can't tell whether the sound might be improved, but it certainly isn't bad at all.

[shaohao]

I've upload v1.0beta5

Add Dither, Noiseshaping & Replaygain

Go to the first post to download the latest beta version (http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23426#post23426)

[Tokelil]

What does the options for soundshaping mean? (low, medium, high)
What soundshaping and dithering algoritmns are used? (Those used in XPPlay or some of the industry standards?) Hope you dont mind me asking, but the technology got me interrested a few weeks back...

(Not that I can hear the difference anyway with my current setup... Especially after I blew the treble and the middle tone speakers in my right speaker :()

[brian]

Wow, this is amazingly quick progress! A few points, please:

(1) How come dithering is available only in decoding mode?

(2) Yes, the AAC problem seems to be resolved.

(3) The vis still doesn't work in system mode - will this be possible?

Many thanks!

[jawpr]

Wow, this is amazingly quick progress! A few points, please:

(1) How come dithering is available only in decoding mode?

(2) Yes, the AAC problem seems to be resolved.

(3) The vis still doesn't work in system mode - will this be possible?

Many thanks!


I don't understand. Are you saying your visuals don't work with this plug-in in system mode? I just tried mine and they are working fine. Also some are having trouble getting sound from all their speakers. I have creative 4.1 speakers and I have sound from all of them. This is true with the previous versions as well. Speakers and vis both work on mine. Maybe I misunderstood some of the previous messages? :puzzled:

[brian]

Different people seem to get different results. Visuals have only ever worked in decoding mode on my system. I believe someone else mentioned earlier on that they had the same problem.

[jawpr]

Different people seem to get different results. Visuals have only ever worked in decoding mode on my system. I believe someone else mentioned earlier on that they had the same problem.

I think they did also. Have you also had trouble with your speakers working?
I haven't tried the visuals in decoding mode yet. I have winXP,Creative 4.1 speakers, and revolution 7.1 sound card.

[brian]

The speakers issue doesn't affect me because I have my PC hooked up to my hi fi. I use the two-speakers setting in my Revo config.

[hedge]

Shaohao himself said that visuals wouldn't work in system mode... Don't think he's managed to fix that.

Why are the dithering and soundshaping options only available in 32bit floating point mode?

Hmmm and that crash is still happening, same message still being given.

[shaohao]

Shaohao himself said that visuals wouldn't work in system mode... Don't think he's managed to fix that.

I'll try to fix it. I've got a idea how to solve it.


Why are the dithering and soundshaping options only available in 32bit floating point mode?

Dither means adding some white noise to the original sample data in order to represent some weak&small signals more detially when converting from high bps to low bps. And the noise shaping is only avaliable under dithering that add white noise into the data.

BTW: the Dither, Noise shaping and replaygain is based on the source code of FLAC which is better than MAD.


Hmmm and that crash is still happening, same message still being given.
Which output method did you use? "Decoding only" or "Playback with device"?

[hedge]

Which output method did you use? "Decoding only" or "Playback with device"?
Decoding only

[jawpr]

Shaohao himself said that visuals wouldn't work in system mode... Don't think he's managed to fix that.

Why are the dithering and soundshaping options only available in 32bit floating point mode?

Hmmm and that crash is still happening, same message still being given.


I know he said visuals didn't work in system mode. That's why I am confused. Mine are working so I wonder why?

[jawpr]

Since my visuals are working now when they are not supposed to work, It makes me wonder if after he gets them fixed so they are supposed to work, if mine will even work at all. Sounds to me like I have something in my system set up wrong and I sure would like to correct it. If I only knew what it was and how to fix it. Same thing with my Creative 4.1 speakers. Mine are working now when most of the others are not working.

Shaohao - No, the visuals are not dancing the way they should. Please give me the exact path to the playback mode you suggested and I will check it. I know very little about computers so give me the exact path and thanks for your help!

[shaohao]

I know he said visuals didn't work in system mode. That's why I am confused. Mine are working so I wonder why?
Make sure you are running under Playback(System) Mode by selecting your output hardware device under "Output Method" in General tab.

You said the visual works--Did the visual graphic really dancing with the music?

[Qaz]

I know he said visuals didn't work in system mode. That's why I am confused. Mine are working so I wonder why?
Are you then absolutely certain that BASS is the plug-in your using?

[jawpr]

Are you then absolutely certain that BASS is the plug-in your using?


Yes - I unchecked all the other input and all output plugins to make sure Bass was the one being used. Do you know the exact path to the output mode Shaohao was talking about in the above post?

EDIT - OK, I might have found what Shaohao was refering to. In the player,when Bass is selected and clicking on configue,it has 2 selections available in output method. My 2 selections are (I)Decode) and (2)m-audio revolution. Mine is set on M-audio revolution. Is that not right?

[Qaz]

Preferences -> Plug-ins -> Input -> Configure of BASS -> Output method

For me it says ESS Maestro for the system mode. You probably have something else.

By the way shahao, is there any reason why it only shows one option at a time?

EDIT:
EDIT - OK, I might have found what Shaohao was refering to. In the player,when Bass is selected and clicking on configue,it has 2 selections available in output method. My 2 selections are (I)Decode) and (2)m-audio revolution. Mine is set on M-audio revolution. Is that not right?
Yes, that's what should be selected.

[shaohao]

By the way shahao, is there any reason why it only shows one option at a time?

??
Sorry,:confused:
I can't figure out what you're talking about?

Which one only show one option at a time?

[Qaz]

Which one only show one option at a time?
The drop down menu for output method. See the picture (I was suppose to add this to my previous post, but I uploaded the wrong pic back then...). Or is this again a thing that happens only for me?

[brian]

The drop down menu for output method. See the picture (I was suppose to add this to my previous post, but I uploaded the wrong pic back then...). Or is this again a thing that happens only for me?
I don't have this problem - all available options are shown.

[Tokelil]

This depends on the windows version you are running. XP will show them all, but I think versions before that will only show 1... Easily fixed though, but something I tend to forget myself when creating dialogs. :ermm:

[o2xygen]

This is one crazy plugin :biggrin:
1) Visuals are always working for me
2)In decoding mode when simpledirectsound is selected, music comes from FL FR RL RR
3)I can only use system mode with a playback plugin selected
:bandit:

[shaohao]

This is one crazy plugin :biggrin:
1) Visuals are always working for me
It's impossible! 'cause there is no data sent to playback plug-in of QCD which will send the vis data to vis module later.


2)In decoding mode when simpledirectsound is selected, music comes from FL FR RL RR
3)I can only use system mode with a playback plugin selected
:bandit:It seems multi-speaker system works fine under decoding mode.
BTW: Is your multi-speaker system works fine using other input plug-in such as MAD, XAudio, APE and etc.

As for system(playback) mode, I think it may be a bug of BASS or you need install a correct sound driver.
'Cause It should work within stereo(2 channel) media as QCD's playback plug-in do.
The beta4a which I've uploaded before is a stupid plug-in--I just duplicate the 2 channels data multi-channel data.
I'm planning to give up the development on multi-speaker support if the problem is a result of bug of BASS or invalid installation of sound driver.

[brian]

Shao Hao - do you feel like telling us your current plans for the plugin, please? At this point it would be good to take stock and look forward.

[shaohao]

Shao Hao - do you feel like telling us your current plans for the plugin, please? At this point it would be good to take stock and look forward.
OK:

Fix a non-close bug on config dialog box on some OS. I create a modaless PropertySheet with PropertySheet() function, but I don't know how to Destroy it with DestryWindow(). I know it can be destroyed within a message loop--but in a .dll file, how to do that? Anyone can give me a hand?
Apply dither&noiseshaping to playback mode.
Have a try on seemless & gapless playback on playback mode.
Fix other bugs.

[brian]

That's excellent - thanks very much indeed. I take it that `playback mode' is now your preferred way of referring to system mode.

[Roj]

OK:

Fix a non-close bug on config dialog box on some OS. I create a modaless PropertySheet with PropertySheet() function, but I don't know how to Destroy it with DestryWindow(). I know it can be destroyed within a message loop--but in a .dll file, how to do that? Anyone can give me a hand?
Apply dither&noiseshaping to playback mode.
Have a try on seemless & gapless playback on playback mode.
Fix other bugs.
Every artist has a masterpiece. I think this plugin will be yours. :)

Does the above means that seamless / gapless already works for system mode? (I'm afraid to try).

Thanks so much for your hard work on this.

[brian]

Does the above means that seamless / gapless already works for system mode?
What Shao Hao started out calling `system mode' he now calls `playback mode', if I've followed him correctly. So I take it he's going to try the seamless/gapless trick in playback mode only; presumably it isn't relevant to decoding mode.

[shaohao]

What Shao Hao started out calling `system mode' he now calls `playback mode', if I've followed him correctly. So I take it he's going to try the seamless/gapless trick in playback mode only; presumably it isn't relevant to decoding mode.
Use QCD's Crossfade plug-in which support gapless playback when useing Decoding mode. As for Playback mode, I should write my own codes.

[Roj]

Use QCD's Crossfade plug-in which support gapless playback when useing Decoding mode. As for Playback mode, I should write my own codes.
Crossfader seamless / gapless never worked for mp3 - only ogg. :( Methinks it had to do with the way the default mp3 decoder was written and nobody's MAD plugin except Case's ever supported that function (neither your's nor Winamp's).

[jawpr]

It's impossible! 'cause there is no data sent to playback plug-in of QCD which will send the vis data to vis module later.

It seems multi-speaker system works fine under decoding mode.
BTW: Is your multi-speaker system works fine using other input plug-in such as MAD, XAudio, APE and etc.

As for system(playback) mode, I think it may be a bug of BASS or you need install a correct sound driver.
'Cause It should work within stereo(2 channel) media as QCD's playback plug-in do.
The beta4a which I've uploaded before is a stupid plug-in--I just duplicate the 2 channels data multi-channel data.
I'm planning to give up the development on multi-speaker support if the problem is a result of bug of BASS or invalid installation of sound driver.



Originally Posted by o2xygen
This is one crazy plugin
1) Visuals are always working for me


I agree,it is crazy. My 4.1 speakers always work and my visuals work in system mode with bass and vqf being the only 2 input plug-ins selected and with no output plug-ins selected. My visuals work pretty good although not as good as the visuals in WMP. Shaohoa says that is impossible. Well, it might be a miracle or mystery but it is happening on my computer!
BTW - To me the sound really sounds GREAT.

[brian]

Crossfader seamless / gapless never worked for mp3 - only ogg. :( Methinks it had to do with the way the default mp3 decoder was written and nobody's MAD plugin except Case's ever supported that function (neither your's nor Winamp's).
Can you, or someone, please report on whether this problem persists when the BASS plugin is used as the decoder?

[o2xygen]

It's impossible! 'cause there is no data sent to playback plug-in of QCD which will send the vis data to vis module later.

It seems multi-speaker system works fine under decoding mode.
BTW: Is your multi-speaker system works fine using other input plug-in such as MAD, XAudio, APE and etc.

As for system(playback) mode, I think it may be a bug of BASS or you need install a correct sound driver.
'Cause It should work within stereo(2 channel) media as QCD's playback plug-in do.
The beta4a which I've uploaded before is a stupid plug-in--I just duplicate the 2 channels data multi-channel data.
I'm planning to give up the development on multi-speaker support if the problem is a result of bug of BASS or invalid installation of sound driver.
yes multi speaker works under mad and xaudio fine...
as for the visual thing, jawpr said before that visuals work in system mode as well

[shaohao]

OK, I've uploaded a new beta version.

Go to the first post to download the latest beta version.

Everything are in the Changelog.

[Roj]

Can you, or someone, please report on whether this problem persists when the BASS plugin is used as the decoder?OK, I just tested it and got the daylights scared out of me.

First the good news:

I turned Dithering / Noiseshaping ON with it set to HIGH.


Using "decoding" output method with all fading turned off in the Crossfader Plugin and Seamless / Gapless play turned ON, the BASS plugin gives perfect seamless / gapless playback. (YAY!!!! :) :) :) )

HOWEVER...

When I set it to use the sound card driver for output, the volume JUMPS DRASTICALLY when the player switches from one song to another. That caused more than a few eyebrows to be raised at my office when I tried it just now. I had the "adjust volume on primary buffer (system wide)" option in the Crossfade plugin UNCHECKED as is my custom.

Tres scareee...

EDit:

My test was with Beta 5.

[Qaz]

Yay, my config dialog issues are fixed now :)

[brian]

When I set it to use the sound card driver for output, the volume JUMPS DRASTICALLY when the player switches from one song to another. That caused more than a few eyebrows to be raised at my office when I tried it just now. I had the "adjust volume on primary buffer (system wide)" option in the Crossfade plugin UNCHECKED as is my custom.
But weren't strange goings-on to be expected, given that the plugin doesn't yet support seamless/gapless output in playback mode?

[brian]

OK, I've uploaded a new beta version.

Go to the first post to download the latest beta version.

Everything are in the Changelog.
More superfast development - amazing! A few points, please:

(1) Yes, visuals now work in playback mode.

(2) In the dialog which includes dithering, preamp, etc, the heading still says `decoding only'; it needs to be changed to `DSP' or whatever, since it now applies across the board.

(3) For some strange reason, the plugin config window now opens BEHIND the main QCD plugins config window; it didn't do this with earlier betas.

(4) When I click on OK in the plugin config dialog, QCD crashes (every time); this didn't happen with earlier betas.

Glad to see Paul has been helping you out here and there - I've been wondering whether he was in the picture somewhere!

Many thanks once again.

[Roj]

But weren't strange goings-on to be expected, given that the plugin doesn't yet support seamless/gapless output in playback mode?
Strange goings-on? Yes. Full volume? No. :)

[matty28carter]

More superfast development - amazing! A few points, please:

(1) Yes, visuals now work in playback mode.

(2) In the dialog which includes dithering, preamp, etc, the heading still says `decoding only'; it needs to be changed to `DSP' or whatever, since it now applies across the board.

(3) For some strange reason, the plugin config window now opens BEHIND the main QCD plugins config window; it didn't do this with earlier betas.

(4) When I click on OK in the plugin config dialog, QCD crashes (every time); this didn't happen with earlier betas.

Glad to see Paul has been helping you out here and there - I've been wondering whether he was in the picture somewhere!

Many thanks once again.

Pops up behind here too. Don't get the crash though when pressing ok. Also speakers has been spelt "speakes" and there isn't anything in that drop down menu, but i'm gussing there isn't supposed to be as i don't have a multi-speaker system. Also I think you've fixed the crash on exit bug! Yay! Nice one. :ditsy:

[matty28carter]

Also I think you've fixed the crash on exit bug! Yay! Nice one. :ditsy:

Perhaps not, still getting it. Exit QCD whilst a song is playing. Doesn't like it one bit. I've got BASS in decoder mode.

[brian]

This may be a silly question, but why would you want to exit QCD while a song is playing? I wouldn't expect any plugin to take kindly to that.

[Roj]

This may be a silly question, but why would you want to exit QCD while a song is playing? I wouldn't expect any plugin to take kindly to that.
I do it all the time - just get fed up with the music or whatever. XMPlay handles it well as does Windows Media Player.

[Qaz]

This may be a silly question, but why would you want to exit QCD while a song is playing? I wouldn't expect any plugin to take kindly to that.
It's a bit faster than hitting stop first. And this haven't never been a problem for me.

[madjo]

I still get this problem:
when the Output method is set to 'decoding', it won't stop when you press "stop"... well, it stops for a second, and then it goes to the next track.
only when you press "pause" first and then "stop" it stops...

this is with beta 6.. just upgraded..

Also it seems that BASS tries to get the info from all tracks on the playlist, or something like that.. my hard drive makes a lot of noise upon loading QCD (searching for files etc.) , whereas with the default mp3 decoder of QCD, I don't have any of these 'experiences'...

[Tokelil]

Well this is shaping up rather well! :) Nice work... And really nice to see Paul being "involved". :)

[Roj]

Well this is shaping up rather well! :) Nice work... And really nice to see Paul being "involved". :)
I'll bet you that his cunning plan is to replace XAudio with this BASS decoder as the default when it's done.

Call it a gut hunch...

[shaohao]

I'll bet you that his cunning plan is to replace XAudio with this BASS decoder as the default when it's done.

Call it a gut hunch...

NO, he just help me fixing the UI bug.

I forgot to remove the speaker item from Advanced Tab which havn't been implemented.


Also it seems that BASS tries to get the info from all tracks on the playlist, or something like that.. my hard drive makes a lot of noise upon loading QCD (searching for files etc.) , whereas with the default mp3 decoder of QCD, I don't have any of these 'experiences'...

BASS will try to get the info from all tracks on the playlist to get some information such as playback duration.

[Inthewoods]

OK, I've found another little "bug" with the plugin (not sure if it's really a bug or some setting in my system), but the balance control does not work correctly. I'm speaking of the one in QCD, the system balance control is fine. The QCD balance control works ok with other input plugins (mp3, mad, etc) but not with the BASS plugin.

Has anybody else seen this? It's a minor nuisance, but I'm just curious about the possibility of something else gone awry in my system.

[brian]

It's a bit faster than hitting stop first. And this haven't never been a problem for me.
OK, I get the picture. But I don't get this problem on my system, either in decoding or playback mode, and with either mp3 streams or local ogg files.

[brian]

I'll bet you that his cunning plan is to replace XAudio with this BASS decoder as the default when it's done.

Call it a gut hunch...
I issue my usual reminder that talk of defaults and replacements is inaccurate. But Paul might well consider including the BASS plugin in the QCD installation package once it's working to everyone's satisfaction.

[brian]

OK, I've found another little "bug" with the plugin (not sure if it's really a bug or some setting in my system), but the balance control does not work correctly. I'm speaking of the one in QCD, the system balance control is fine. The QCD balance control works ok with other input plugins (mp3, mad, etc) but not with the BASS plugin.

Has anybody else seen this? It's a minor nuisance, but I'm just curious about the possibility of something else gone awry in my system.
The balance control seems to be fine on my system - not that I ever have occasion to move it off centre.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

When i select playback method for BASS plugin, disable output plugins, restart qcd, one of the output plugins (simple directsound) is selected again. This is quite annoying.

Also when i stream mp3 from di.fm with BASS as playback plugin and no output plugins selected, and my bandwidth is temporarily low, music naturally skips, but unlike using Xaudio and mp3 plugin, qcd crashes. :skull:

[brian]

When i select playback method for BASS plugin, disable output plugins, restart qcd, one of the output plugins (simple directsound) is selected again. This is quite annoying.
This has been mentioned before (by jawpr, I think). There's no need to disable output plugins when using BASS in playback mode, just leave your usual one checked. I imagine it's a feature of QCD that it ensures an output plugin is enabled on restart, not a feature of the BASS plugin.

[brian]

I must say that when it comes to sound quality on my system, the full benefit of BASS is to be felt only in playback mode. In decoding mode, it can't hold a candle to MAD.

[Roj]

I must say that when it comes to sound quality on my system, the full benefit of BASS is to be felt only in playback mode. In decoding mode, it can't hold a candle to MAD.Now I'm curious:

Why exactly is that?

Can anything be done about it?

Shaohao?

[brian]

Now I'm curious:

Why exactly is that?

Can anything be done about it?

Shaohao?
I imagine BASS wasn't designed to be used only for decoding. In fact it isn't clear to me why Shao Hao has split the options in this way (not that I object).

[Roj]

I imagine BASS wasn't designed to be used only for decoding. In fact it isn't clear to me why Shao Hao has split the options in this way (not that I object).
Some people would want to use the Crossfader which wouldn't be possible with BASS running in native mode.

[jawpr]

This has been mentioned before (by jawpr, I think). There's no need to disable output plugins when using BASS in playback mode, just leave your usual one checked. I imagine it's a feature of QCD that it ensures an output plugin is enabled on restart, not a feature of the BASS plugin.


If there's no need to disable the output plugin, doesn't that mean that the output plugin is not being used? If that is the case, why does QCD stop playing if you disable that plugin while the track is being played? Then you have to restart the track to continue. If it is not using that output plugin, it seems to me that disabling it would have no effect. I am not disputing anyone's word, just curious as to why it would stop the track being played.

[brian]

If there's no need to disable the output plugin, doesn't that mean that the output plugin is not being used? If that is the case, why does QCD stop playing if you disable that plugin while the track is being played? Then you have to restart the track to continue. If it is not using that output plugin, it seems to me that disabling it would have no effect. I am not disputing anyone's word, just curious as to why it would stop the track being played.
I'm not very well up on the inner workings of QCD, yet it seems reasonable to me that it should be resistant to having all output plugins disabled, and that any attempt to do this during playback should cause an interruption. But in any case, why this sudden urge to disable all output plugins? It seems to be based on an anxiety that only by doing so can we be sure that BASS in playback mode isn't using any of them.

[jkrzok]

If there's no need to disable the output plugin, doesn't that mean that the output plugin is not being used? If that is the case, why does QCD stop playing if you disable that plugin while the track is being played? Then you have to restart the track to continue. If it is not using that output plugin, it seems to me that disabling it would have no effect. I am not disputing anyone's word, just curious as to why it would stop the track being played.

I've noticed a similar problem when disabling unused input plugins i.e. disabling the monkey's audio plugin while mp3s are playing.

[hedge]

I imagine BASS wasn't designed to be used only for decoding. In fact it isn't clear to me why Shao Hao has split the options in this way (not that I object).
The crossfading plug allows for volume control, actual crossfading, gapless playback and silence removal.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I think that it would be much better if there were an 'output' (playback) plugin version of BASS and an 'input' (=decoding) plugin version of BASS. I mean not both in one plugin, but separated into a playback plugin and an input plugin. Anyone else agree with me on this? :bulb:

[brian]

The crossfading plug allows for volume control, actual crossfading, gapless playback and silence removal.
Well, yes, except that the object of using BASS is defeated if its sound quality in decoding mode is noticeably poorer than that of the best existing input plugins, as seems to me to be the case. Moreover, Shao Hao plans to introduce at least some of the features you list in playback mode anyway. But as I said, if people want decoding mode as an option, that's fine.

[brian]

I think that it would be much better if there were an 'output' (playback) plugin version of BASS and an 'input' (=decoding) plugin version of BASS. I mean not both in one plugin, but separated into a playback plugin and an input plugin. Anyone else agree with me on this? :bulb:
How would that leave us better off than we were before BASS came along? (even assuming that such a split would be technically possible within the BASS architecture, and that it would be fair to ask Shao Hao to do all the additional work involved)

[hedge]

To shaohao: Why does BASS take some time before it starts playing a song in Decoding mode?
Also, I'm still noticing the crash after closing qcd with bass enabled, and now I'm also getting the crash when clicking on Ok in the config window.

And I would also like to know why there would be a quality difference between decoding mode and system mode? (not that i can hear one...)

[shaohao]

Well, yes, except that the object of using BASS is defeated if its sound quality in decoding mode is noticeably poorer than that of the best existing input plugins, as seems to me to be the case. Moreover, Shao Hao plans to introduce at least some of the features you list in playback mode anyway. But as I said, if people want decoding mode as an option, that's fine.OK, I've been working on BASS for a few weeks. In my opinion, I don't think BASS's decoding module is a very good one (maybe mpg123/MAD are still best.) Everyone say BASS is good--I think it means BASS is a good module for developping media player, 'cause it supply All in One functions: decoding, playback, customize input stream and etc. The author of BASS said the mp3 decoder module is based on the ISO standard. He just write some his own codes. Its output module should be based on DirectX Sound object(should be not better than Xfade plug-in). As for 32-bit floating-point. It just raise 16-bit to 32-bit which give you a more wide dynamic range. If you use Dither, it will fall to 16-bit!!

I can seperate BASS into input & playback module (I think this will make my code more simply and easy to manager).
If all of you like this way. I'll do it.
BTW: If I seperate playback module from BASS, you can play any media format through BASS, not only MOD/MP*, but also FLAC, MPC, APE and etc.


And I would also like to know why there would be a quality difference between decoding mode and system mode? (not that i can hear one...)
In decoding mode, QCDBASS will get the decoded data from BASS and send them to QCD's playback mode. In this way, QCD is not only a shell to manager playing behave (such as time display, play/pause/stop and etc), but also is a bridge which data will tansport from it.
In playback/system mode, BASS decode data and play it by itself. So it should be fast, 'cause there is no data transport. In this way, QCD is only a shell

[brian]

I can seperate BASS into input & playback module (I think this will make my code more simply and easy to manager).
If all of you like this way. I'll do it.
If it makes things easier for you and we don't lose any overall functionality, then I'm in favour. (with apologies to Rex for prematurely dissing his suggestion!)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I can seperate BASS into input & playback module (I think this will make my code more simply and easy to manager).
If all of you like this way. I'll do it.
BTW: If I seperate playback module from BASS, you can play any media format through BASS, not only MOD/MP*, but also FLAC, MPC, APE and etc.


If you could do that no problem, then you would make me very happy :)

[hedge]

In decoding mode, QCDBASS will get the decoded data from BASS and send them to QCD's playback mode. In this way, QCD is not only a shell to manager playing behave (such as time display, play/pause/stop and etc), but also is a bridge which data will tansport from it.
In playback/system mode, BASS decode data and play it by itself. So it should be fast, 'cause there is no data transport. In this way, QCD is only a shell
Hmmm but aren't all input plugins for qcd like that too? Even Case's MAD input plugin has close to instant song starts (despite having realllly slow seeks).
If the decoding core can manage to supply the playback core of BASS very quickly, why can't it do the same with qcd's core?

[Inthewoods]

I must say that when it comes to sound quality on my system, the full benefit of BASS is to be felt only in playback mode. In decoding mode, it can't hold a candle to MAD.
My first reaction to your post was "say WHAT?", but then I did some careful listening tests. I noticed the same thing, but when I listened a couple days ago, I thought it was on a par with MAD, quality wise.

The bottom line, at least on my system, is that version b4 is MUCH better sounding in decoding mode than b6. In addition, the preamp control seems to ad considerable IM type distortion. I'm back to b4 for now.

[Roj]

I think that it would be much better if there were an 'output' (playback) plugin version of BASS and an 'input' (=decoding) plugin version of BASS. I mean not both in one plugin, but separated into a playback plugin and an input plugin. Anyone else agree with me on this? :bulb:
Given what we're seeing, that definitely gets my vote.

[BALTY]

Yes, this will be great!!
And b4 is a bit better that way. but not a big deal
Keep up the GREAT work!~

The visuals are still a question. I thought at first they had gotten fixed with b6. but if you could fix that it would be so cool dude!!! Maybe with the separation this will help!
I also get this very loud buzz at the biginnings of songs. Then as if it finds it's sound level , it gets good again (maybe 3 seconds worth of noise). It just started after installing BASE.
*OOOOppps It only happens in the DECODING mode. (for both issues above) sorry, works well in the soundcard (NATIVE) mode.


Maybe just a quintess-a-dence. I'll try reloading!

Given what we're seeing, that definitely gets my vote.

Thanks for your work..... in advance~ :apple:
Wow you guys (user threads) are busy in this matter! Get a Life people! .... Like Gaming or something, like I do with no other life! ha,ha! just kidding,. Thanks for all of you! really, it keeps us informed and with all the "INPUT" (INPut User Threads)
it's been great to hear all of YOU and your experiences!

[brian]

Shao Hao - four people have spoken in favour of asking you to create separate input and playback plugins. Nobody has spoken against. Several people have stayed silent, probably waiting to see what happens. So I suggest that you go ahead and make the split, please.

[matty28carter]

I have no objections to you spliting the decoding methods. if it makes it easier for you.

[BALTY]

;)
Shao Hao - four people have spoken in favour of asking you to create separate input and playback plugins. Nobody has spoken against. Several people have stayed silent, probably waiting to see what happens. So I suggest that you go ahead and make the split, please.
Yea here!

[MLO]

Shao Hao - four people have spoken in favour of asking you to create separate input and playback plugins. Nobody has spoken against. Several people have stayed silent, probably waiting to see what happens. So I suggest that you go ahead and make the split, please.
What exactly are you asking Shao to do? A, B, or C

A) You want two input plugins?
1. one that decodes and sends QCD the data for playback
- and -
2. one that just does playback via BASS w/o sending data to QCD?

Or

B) You want one input plugin and one playback plugin?
1. one input plugin that always decodes and sends QCD the data for playback
- and -
2. one playback plugin in which QCD will use BASS for all playback?

Or

C) something else?http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/post/confused.gif


If A) is what you want, then I think it should remain in one input plugin with the option in the Configuration as it is now.http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

If B) is what you want, then Shao has some work to do for the Playback plugin... I suppose it is possible using the BASS_RecordStart function with the callback parameter being used to fill in the WAVEFORMATEX data. This method would mean that the data could get converted from 16 to 32 bit on the Playback side of things. This is an interesting idea, hopefully this is what you are talking about... is it?http://www.quinnware.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[acozz]

I'm pretty sure they want B.

[brian]

Rex suggested (B). Shao Hao said he could do that if we wanted, and that moreover it would make things easier for him. So that's what we've been voting on. I would have thought that's clear enough if you read the thread, but apologies if it isn't. It's hard to see why anyone would want (A).

[o2xygen]

Mine:
1) Decoding is better than playback...
2) Playback with SimpleDS: too high pitched music from FL FR
2)Playback without any playback plugin: lower music, and a bit lower pitched sound that 2... Again FL, FR

[brian]

Mine:
1) Decoding is better than playback...
2) Playback with SimpleDS: too high pitched music from FL FR
2)Playback without any playback plugin: lower music, and a bit lower pitched sound that 2... Again FL, FR
Have you tried out XMPlay with your speakers? That would throw light on whether the problem is with Shao Hao's plugin or with BASS itself. XMPlay doesn't have settings for different numbers of speakers.

[Roj]

Rex suggested (B). Shao Hao said he could do that if we wanted, and that moreover it would make things easier for him. So that's what we've been voting on. I would have thought that's clear enough if you read the thread, but apologies if it isn't. It's hard to see why anyone would want (A).
Shaohao still hasn't answered my question on why decode mode has lesser audio quality than playback mode...

[shaohao]

Shaohao still hasn't answered my question on why decode mode has lesser audio quality than playback mode...
You can control Dither/Noiseshaping, Replaygain and Preamp/6dB hard limiter in Decoding mode. But You can only control Replaygain and Preamp/6dB hard limiter in Playback mode. So...Disable Dither/Noiseshaping and have a listen on decoding & playback mode, is there still any difference? I have no idea on why decoding mode give you a lesser audio quality. Maybe, my Dither/Noiseshaping code is not very good

[Roj]

You can control Dither/Noiseshaping, Replaygain and Preamp/6dB hard limiter in Decoding mode. But You can only control Replaygain and Preamp/6dB hard limiter in Playback mode. So...Disable Dither/Noiseshaping and have a listen on decoding & playback mode, is there still any difference? I have no idea on why decoding mode give you a lesser audio quality. Maybe, my Dither/Noiseshaping code is not very good
Thanks Shaohao. :)

OK guys (brian / InTheWoods and Co.):

Let's do what he says and see what happens.

Post back here what you hear. :)

[brian]

It's hard to see the point of any further testing until such time as the two separate plugins become available. If Shao Hao can manage to create them, that is; and if we don't start backtracking to the idea of a single plugin. I suggest we let him get on with that task, if he feels able to do so, before raising any more queries. That's what I intend to do, in any case.

[Inthewoods]

For what it's worth, I can't hear any sound quality difference between the 2 modes. There might be a perceived difference to some folks, because in system mode, the output is a bit louder, but I can't hear any difference in sound quality. Another factor that could be affecting sound could be how a person's particular soundcard/amp combination handles different gain levels, some amplifiers sound better with a higher signal input, others are just the opposite. Thus, the difference in gain between the 2 methods could cause real, rather than perceived differences in sound quality, on some systems and not others.

As for splitting the plugin, isn't that what the dual-mode option effectively does?
Or am I missing some significant advantage of splitting it up?

[MLO]

For what it's worth, I can't hear any sound quality difference between the 2 modes. There might be a perceived difference to some folks, because in system mode, the output is a bit louder, but I can't hear any difference in sound quality. Another factor that could be affecting sound could be how a person's particular soundcard/amp combination handles different gain levels, some amplifiers sound better with a higher signal input, others are just the opposite. Thus, the difference in gain between the 2 methods could cause real, rather than perceived differences in sound quality, on some systems and not others.
If your soundcard can't handle 32 bit music, which most can't... then you shouldn't hear any difference since the 32 bit music BASS is trying to play in the "playback" mode since it is just getting converted back to 16 bit. Furthermore, the entire exercise of creating a BASS input plugin in decode mode seems worthless considering QCD only handles 16 bit. I suppose that is why Shao is talking about creating a BASS playback plugin, so that he can convert the 16 to 32 bit during playback (after QCD hands the data to the playback plugin). But this begs the question, why even bother making an input plugin at all?

As for splitting the plugin, isn't that what the dual-mode option effectively does?
Or am I missing some significant advantage of splitting it up?
This is why I asked this:
http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24615&postcount=165

It appears B) is the option that Brian and a few others want... although it doesn't really seem so clear to me either. Especially considering that Shao isn't really splitting anything apart, but rather he is creating something totally new - a BASS playback plugin.

[Roj]

the entire exercise of creating a BASS input plugin in decode mode seems worthless considering QCD only handles 16 bit.
I asked Paul about that once (it had to do with the various drop-down options) and he said QCD would handle anything the sound card did. I specifically asked him that because I have a true 24-bit card.

[MLO]

I asked Paul about that once (it had to do with the various drop-down options) and he said QCD would handle anything the sound card did. I specifically asked him that because I have a true 24-bit card.
Well I've never discussed this with Paul, but if you look at the format that QCD input plugins need to give QCD, it is the WAVEFORMATEX struct. And if you look at the wBitsPerSample part of that struct, you'll see this:
wBitsPerSample Bits per sample for the wFormatTag format type. If wFormatTag is WAVE_FORMAT_PCM, then wBitsPerSample should be equal to 8 or 16.
Perhaps there is a way around this... but it looks to me like you have to give either 8 or 16 bits to QCD in the WAVEFORMATEX struct.

[Inthewoods]

If your soundcard can't handle 32 bit music, which most can't... then you shouldn't hear any difference since the 32 bit music BASS is trying to play in the "playback" mode since it is just getting converted back to 16 bit. Furthermore, the entire exercise of creating a BASS input plugin in decode mode seems worthless considering QCD only handles 16 bit. I suppose that is why Shao is talking about creating a BASS playback plugin, so that he can convert the 16 to 32 bit during playback (after QCD hands the data to the playback plugin). But this begs the question, why even bother making an input plugin at all?


I disagree. If you are using the BASS plugin in decode mode, then you must be using a different output plugin, so of course there could be differences, just as there are sonic differences between the Crossfader plugin and WaveOut.

As to your last question, I feel just the opposite is true. We NEED a good sounding, well designed input plugin to supercede the antiquated QCD MDA plugin as well as the other options like mpg123 and WA plugin manager.

Since the crossfader plugin works fine as it is, the only advantage I see in the BASS output plugin would be the 16 to 32 bit output conversion, which is important only to a select few. I mean, really, we are talking about compressed audio here, be it mp3, ogg, or (heaven forbid) wma here, for the most part. If I want to seriously listen to a CD, I'll be in my livingroom, not in front of my computer, which is not to say 16 bit vs 32 bit output doesn't matter, only that it's not as important as the end goal: excellent sound from a (usually) compact, office sized system.

So, to me, this begs the question, why even bother making an output plugin at all?

JMO

[Roj]

Well I've never discussed this with Paul, but if you look at the format that QCD input plugins need to give QCD, it is the WAVEFORMATEX struct. And if you look at the wBitsPerSample part of that struct, you'll see this:
wBitsPerSample Bits per sample for the wFormatTag format type. If wFormatTag is WAVE_FORMAT_PCM, then wBitsPerSample should be equal to 8 or 16.
Perhaps there is a way around this... but it looks to me like you have to give either 8 or 16 bits to QCD in the WAVEFORMATEX struct.I know that in SP1 the audio subsystem was upgraded to handle 24-bit audio. might that have some bearing on the situation?

[Roj]

So, to me, this begs the question, why even bother making an output plugin at all?
Given that dithering and soundshaping could / would be built into the input plugin and the input plugin could be developed to support seaml;ess / gapless playback (it already does as I understand it), I concur.

[MLO]

As to your last question, I feel just the opposite is true. We NEED a good sounding, well designed input plugin to supercede the antiquated QCD MDA plugin as well as the other options like mpg123 and WA plugin manager.
Do you honestly feel that a decoder makes that much difference? I'll bet that the bits coming out are so close that you would need to be a dog to hear the difference. I mean really what exactly are talking about with your "antiquated" remark? Perhaps you just want something different... but it is going to be more or less the same thing.


I mean, really, we are talking about compressed audio here, be it mp3, ogg, or (heaven forbid) wma here, for the most part. If I want to seriously listen to a CD, I'll be in my livingroom, not in front of my computer, which is not to say 16 bit vs 32 bit output doesn't matter, only that it's not as important as the end goal: excellent sound from a (usually) compact, office sized system.


So, to me, this begs the question, why even bother making an output plugin at all?

Why bother making any of these BASS plugins then, as you said "we are talking about compressed audio here". Personally I don't think any of this is really worth doing, but the playback plugin idea is at least interesting (from a development stand point). It will be interesting to see if Shao can pull it off. :)

[MLO]

I know that in SP1 the audio subsystem was upgraded to handle 24-bit audio. might that have some bearing on the situation?
I think you're referring to WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/multimed/htm/_win32_waveformatextensible_str.asp), but this can't be what Paul is using since it is only available in XP.

It appears that WAVEFORMATEX can be used to give more than 16 bits per sample if you set the wFormatTag to something other than WAVE_FORMAT_PCM, like WAVE_FORMAT_EXTENSIBLE. Then you can set the wBitsPerSample to any multiple of 8. Not sure how this would affect Visuals and DSP's but who knows, perhaps that really is how it works?

[Inthewoods]

Do you honestly feel that a decoder makes that much difference? I'll bet that the bits coming out are so close that you would need to be a dog to hear the difference. I mean really what exactly are talking about with your "antiquated" remark? Perhaps you just want something different... but it is going to be more or less the same thing.

Perhaps "antiquated" isn't the right word, but rather "incomplete". And, yes I can hear the difference between, for instance, the "official" QCD mp3 decoder and any of the available MAD decoders, and I'd venture a guess that most others can as well. There's even a couple of threads about this issue:

http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2865&highlight=mad+plugin
http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2507&highlight=mad+plugin

Of course, there are other issues with the input plugins, like seamless playback, seek times, resource usage and so forth.

That said, for my own wish list, plugin wise, I simply listen to the music, and evaluate what my ears tell me. I don't buy into either extreme, that "nothing matters" or "everything matters" I simply want a fully functional, low resorce usage, excellent sounding input plugin, and the BASS decoder seems to be closest to the mark, for me, at this point in time.:foureyes:

[brian]

Let's recap. Shao Hao has said that:

(1) he can create separate input and playback plugins;
(2) doing so will make things easier for him;
(3) a separate input plugin will support a wider range of file extensions.

Those were my reasons for supporting separate plugins. So unless he has had second thoughts on any of these points, they stand. He hasn't asked for clarification of what `separate plugins' means, so I presume he's clear about it in his own mind.

Sound quality is of course a different issue - the premise, I thought, was that the whole BASS package would offer an improvement over any currently available combination of input and playback plugins. At the moment, and for my purposes, I'm afraid it doesn't.

[o2xygen]

I read before about replacing the default XAudio plugin with BASS... I strongly disagree with this... QCD is QCD and will never be xmplay... Why do you want it to be like xmplay so much... I tried it and it looks like a beta work...
In my opinion XAudio is THE plugin... I heard a lot about MAD, tried MAD and realised that its like Xaudio with Rock(?) eq preset... And it skips a LOT... BASS skips as well... So i believe that trhe only thing that has to be done is some improvements to xaudio...

With this post i am not underestimating the work that Shaohao has done with his input plugins, I just argued the idea of replacing xaudio

[hedge]

Alright heres all i want from this:
A fast input plugin that still allows for all the features of the crossfading plugin to be used whilst not having to give up on something else.
EVERY other input plugin out there gives up on something.
For instance, the default mp3 plugin does everything perfectly, EXCEPT for calculating song lengths correctly.
The mp3pro plug does everything fine, but isn't a good quality decoder.
The mad plugin by case is fine, apart from its inability to play some files and its extremely slow seeking.

So that's what i want from a BASS input plugin.
Something that will play every file i through at it, be able to correctly calculate the file lengths, and still give me some reasonable quality, and do all this with speed.

The only problem i've got with BASS decoding mode at the moment is the lack of speed starting songs and seeking em. In beta1 this wasn't a problem. What happened between 1 and 6???
(oh and theres still that crash bug on exit... ;) )

[BALTY]

As mentioned above...by InTheWoods. .. I disagree with the following... *Since the crossfader plugin works fine as it is, the only advantage I see in the BASS output plugin would be the 16 to 32 bit output conversion, which is important only to a select few. I mean, really, we are talking about compressed audio here, be it mp3, ogg, or (heaven forbid) wma here, for the most part. If I want to seriously listen to a CD, I'll be in my livingroom, not in front of my computer, which is not to say 16 bit vs 32 bit output doesn't matter, only that it's not as important as the end goal: excellent sound from a (usually) compact, office sized system.

So, to me, this begs the question, why even bother making an output plugin at all?

JMO[/QUOTE]*

I agree with..... below....by ... me!
Why do we make anything better?
Some day, most all of us will have 32 bit cards.It may become a standard. Some of us may DJ now, and tie into said living room stereo!
Hey, Audio is all digital anymore. From the moment it's recorded in a studio, all the way to your amplifier (in some cases all the way to the speaker). we must pursue perfection. It's in our nature (well some of us anyway!). But that been said... I still spin a few of my old LPs. Sometimes just to re-record them to CD-R. I like the pops - and scraches sometimes. Keeps me grounded! And maybe with 32 bit, I'll hear those better~ Scaaaatch.... POP! POP! Hissss! :cool: Some day I'll be a Junk-box hero~

[brian]

The mp3pro plug does everything fine, but isn't a good quality decoder.
I believe this is a mistake - Paul told us a long time ago that this plugin is essentially the same as the mp3 plugin, it just has minor modifications to take account of the quirks of mp3PRO.

[Roj]

I think you're referring to WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/multimed/htm/_win32_waveformatextensible_str.asp), but this can't be what Paul is using since it is only available in XP.

It appears that WAVEFORMATEX can be used to give more than 16 bits per sample if you set the wFormatTag to something other than WAVE_FORMAT_PCM, like WAVE_FORMAT_EXTENSIBLE. Then you can set the wBitsPerSample to any multiple of 8. Not sure how this would affect Visuals and DSP's but who knows, perhaps that really is how it works?


Me Not Programmer, Me Completely Ignorant Of Magic Behind The Curtain. :)

[Roj]

Perhaps "antiquated" isn't the right word, but rather "incomplete". And, yes I can hear the difference between, for instance, the "official" QCD mp3 decoder and any of the available MAD decoders, and I'd venture a guess that most others can as well. There's even a couple of threads about this issue:

http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2865&highlight=mad+plugin
http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2507&highlight=mad+plugin

Of course, there are other issues with the input plugins, like seamless playback, seek times, resource usage and so forth.

That said, for my own wish list, plugin wise, I simply listen to the music, and evaluate what my ears tell me. I don't buy into either extreme, that "nothing matters" or "everything matters" I simply want a fully functional, low resorce usage, excellent sounding input plugin, and the BASS decoder seems to be closest to the mark, for me, at this point in time.:foureyes:
What Woods said. I have an additional bug up my butt in that I want seamless / gapless playback but that pretty much covers it for me.

[shaohao]

Sorry to everyone :depressed.
I found it's very hard for me to write playback module of BASS (while Decoding/input module is easy).
And...I feel a litter tired on this plug-in (maybe I need help on developing this plug-in).
Does anyone have interests in this plug-in? I can send the source-code to him to continue developing, 'cause I don't want this plug-in to be dead.

Hey, MLO or others?

[brian]

Shao Hao - sorry to hear you've been struggling with this. In my view, if you could just manage to fix the few remaining bugs in the last beta, we would have a perfectly respectable plugin. Of course I appreciate that you have put in a huge amount of work over the past few weeks and are feeling tired. There's no hurry.

[Tokelil]

Considered making it open source and putting it on a cvs server? I could spare some time on helping, but Im not sure I have the skills. CVS managed project might make it easier for people to help...

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Is Paul not willing to help out? After all qcd is his player. Any opportunity that arises to make the player better he should take into consideration. Or is he really unavailable?

[Roj]

Considered making it open source and putting it on a cvs server? I could spare some time on helping, but Im not sure I have the skills. CVS managed project might make it easier for people to help...
Greattttttttt... He does that, it'll surely languish into obscurity and die. Too many6 things go open source and do just that because of lack of interest.

[Roj]

Sorry to everyone :depressed.
I found it's very hard for me to write playback module of BASS (while Decoding/input module is easy).
And...I feel a litter tired on this plug-in (maybe I need help on developing this plug-in).
Does anyone have interests in this plug-in? I can send the source-code to him to continue developing, 'cause I don't want this plug-in to be dead.

Hey, MLO or others?
I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties - I know you've put a LOT of VERY hard work into this.

How about this:

As I understand it, you *already* have an input / decode plugin that can have seamless / gapless playback, has complete support for streaming and does dithering / soundshaping. It will output to QCD's wav , simple directSound and crossfade plugins. It'll support the equalizer. If we have all that in an input / decoder plugin, I'd call it a day, get rid of the playback aspect of the plugin and we'd all say a very heartfelt "thank you".

Is this possible?

[Inthewoods]

Just a thought...why do we need to ask shaohao to get rid of the output function? It is, after all, a selectable option.

[Roj]

Just a thought...why do we need to ask shaohao to get rid of the output function? It is, after all, a selectable option.For me at least the rationale was to streamline the code - not have anything in it that wasn't necessary. Also, that part of it doesn't work quite right. Yeah, call me anal... :)

[brian]

I'm happy to go along with Roj's suggestion, as an alternative to a cleaned-up version of the last beta. I'm still intrigued by Shao Hao's by-the-way remark that a solo input plugin will support a much wider range of file extensions than mp3 and ogg.

[Inthewoods]

Yeah, call me anal... :)
Nope...just concise.........

[shaohao]

THX for your replies. OK. I'll make a decoding only version and give up the playback version (actually, BASS's playback module is not very good. QCD's Xfade plug-in should be better.)
Give me a few more days.

[brian]

Shao Hao - thanks very much indeed. I'm sure this will be a most welcome addition to the range of input plugins.

[o2xygen]

:confused:
Decoding only? I downloaded the newer version of BASS ( just realised that I never downloaded beta6)... In last version, I managed to find he difference that others where talking about... In decoding the sound is low, but in playback with 32bit floating point off, the multi speaker sound's very well and clear... The center speaker works as well but "beats" are heard instead of sound(subwoofers job)... If you could invert those two...

[shaohao]

:confused:
Decoding only? I downloaded the newer version of BASS ( just realised that I never downloaded beta6)... In last version, I managed to find he difference that others where talking about... In decoding the sound is low, but in playback with 32bit floating point off, the multi speaker sound's very well and clear... The center speaker works as well but "beats" are heard instead of sound(subwoofers job)... If you could invert those two...
OK, I think the best solution is keeping current mode: decoding+playback. What I should do is fixing bugs.

[Roj]

OK, I think the best solution is keeping current mode: decoding+playback. What I should do is fixing bugs.
Please don't. DirectSound volume is always lower than wav output which almost certainly accounts for the differences being heard. This is borne out by both myself and Woods (I can't remember if brian ever commented on this and am too lazy to read the entire thread again :) ).

In the interests of having a more streamlined plugin, I do hope you'll reconsider and stick to the decoder only path.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I concur. Decoder only is good. It means that there are also fewer bugs to fix.

[brian]

My view is that everybody has now had their say, and that we should let Shao Hao do as he thinks best without attempting to influence his decision any further one way or the other.

[o2xygen]

But if shaohao remove the playback mode, then his work and time will be lost and it is a pity to do so... The wise solution is shaohao leave the plugin as it is, and continue just fixing bugs... It is up to you which mode you will use, and since the plugin was designed this way in the first place...

[matty28carter]

OK, I think the best solution is keeping current mode: decoding+playback. What I should do is fixing bugs.

Have you worked out that crash on exit bug yet?

But if shaohao remove the playback mode, then his work and time will be lost and it is a pity to do so... The wise solution is shaohao leave the plugin as it is, and continue just fixing bugs... It is up to you which mode you will use, and since the plugin was designed this way in the first place...

I agree.

[Roj]

I concur. Decoder only is good. It means that there are also fewer bugs to fix.I agree - less bugs to fix, less extraneous code AND a less jumbled architecture.

The way the plugin is now isn't true to the modular architecture of QCD, with input plugins separated from those for output.

That is why we have two separate panels for each of those functions.

As to losing time and work, sometimes projects have to take a step back in order to move forward, especially when the original path turns out to be a less correct one. We had "scope creep" with more and more features slipping in and a blurring of the lines between the input and output functions. A decoder-only plugin corrects that and goes back to the original concept of a pure input plugin and not a hybrid.

[brian]

My view is that everybody has now had their say, and that we should let Shao Hao do as he thinks best without attempting to influence his decision any further one way or the other.
Hello? Is anybody listening...?

[Roj]

Hello? Is anybody listening...?
Eh? :)

[Tokelil]

Well first of, I dont care! :pirate:
If data is sent to QCD in 16 bit format from the input plug-in then quality might be lost compared to the "true" 32bit mode on 24 bit cards...

[hedge]

Fix:
Crash on exit bug and Speed up track starts and track seeks
And I'll be eternally grateful. :nervous:

[brian]

Eh? :)
I'll spell it out. Shao Hao is now very familiar with all the software issues and with everybody's arguments for their preferred outcome. He has said he is tired of working on the plugin. If you all want to drive him to give it up altogether, just keep on badgering him with the same arguments over and over again.

[Roj]

I'll spell it out. Shao Hao is now very familiar with all the software issues and with everybody's arguments for their preferred outcome. He has said he is tired of working on the plugin. If you all want to drive him to give it up altogether, just keep on badgering him with the same arguments over and over again.
I was being facetious. I'm quite sure your message was understood.

[jawpr]

I'll spell it out. Shao Hao is now very familiar with all the software issues and with everybody's arguments for their preferred outcome. He has said he is tired of working on the plugin. If you all want to drive him to give it up altogether, just keep on badgering him with the same arguments over and over again.


Hope that is not what has happened to Paul!!!!!!

[Todd The Kiwi]

Hope that is not what has happened to Paul!!!!!!
aaw jeez man, don't say that :ermm:
maybe we all sound like Peg from married with children - "hey, Paaaauuullll" :biggrin:

[jawpr]

aaw jeez man, don't say that :ermm:
maybe we all sound like Peg from married with children - "hey, Paaaauuullll" :biggrin:


At least I did notice Paul was looking at the forum this morning around 3:30AM. Who knows, maybe that means something????????

[Zayoos]

That means he's alive :)

[jkrzok]

That means he's alive :)

And his baby was hungry.

[Todd The Kiwi]

maybe he was hungry...
man we've talked about Paul & Matt so much i reckon their ears would've burned off by now :P

[Roj]

At least I did notice Paul was looking at the forum this morning around 3:30AM. Who knows, maybe that means something????????Yeah - the baby either needed feeding or changing... :) :) :)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

The baby is probably his new project. An upgrade to qcd especially at night! :silly:

[shaohao]

I've created a project named "QPlug-ins" on sourceforge.net.
Goto first post for more details.

[Roj]

I've created a project named "QPlug-ins" on sourceforge.net.
Goto first post for more details.Does that mean that you're signing off on the plugin as it exists now? I sincerely hope not...

[brian]

A titbit of news - some people on the XMPlay forum are saying that the program doesn't work well with multiple speakers. So it looks as though this is an inherent issue with BASS, nothing to do with Shao Hao's plugin coding.

[Roj]

A titbit of news - some people on the XMPlay forum are saying that the program doesn't work well with multiple speakers. So it looks as though this is an inherent issue with BASS, nothing to do with Shao Hao's plugin coding.I'm not surprized.

I'm going to take a purist approach to this:

Music material is two channel (that's changing but it's a whole different discussion so let the statement stand for now). Sound card drivers today intentionally process it as such, which means that they don't send any signal to the rest of the channels if the source is two channel. To FAKE multichannel usually involves jumping through some hoops (Fubar does this) and I'm of the opinion that it's simply not worth it because that's not what the source was to begin with. It's "cutesy sound".

"But wait" you say, "I bought a 4.1 / 5.1 system and darn it I want to hear sound from every speaker!". Fine. Play a movie or a game. Music doesn't work that way. To cut a long story short, I don't think any resources should have been spent there in the first place; that's a PeeCee mindset versus real audio.

Just my two cents, seasonally adjusted for inflation.

[brian]

Does that mean that you're signing off on the plugin as it exists now? I sincerely hope not...
I take it he's just looking for some practical help with coding, which unfortunately we haven't been able to provide here. I see that Tokelil is listed as a co-developer at SourceForge, so we can be hopeful that development is still active.

[Sheepeh]

Roj, (how come all my points are directed at you lately ;) ) I use my rear speaker output set to Quadraphonics, and have my headphones plugged in to them...there's at least one reason to have it working...

[Tokelil]

I take it he's just looking for some practical help with coding, which unfortunately we haven't been able to provide here. I see that Tokelil is listed as a co-developer at SourceForge, so we can be hopeful that development is still active.Right now I am only listed as developer as my WinLIRC plug-in is uploaded to sourceforge and I will probably list all my comming plug-ins in the CVS... After all it is nice that all my work isn't wasted if I some day stops supporting my plug-ins and others could take over and fix bugs. (Not that I plan on leaving QCD plug-in development anytime soon...)

Anyway, I would like to help with the development of BASS but I have very little experience in coding input/output plug-ins. :( I'll sure have a look at the source the comming days, but Im not really sure what the problems with the plug-in is right now. (Going to use the bug tracker shaohao?)

[Roj]

Right now I am only listed as developer as my WinLIRC plug-in is uploaded to sourceforge and I will probably list all my comming plug-ins in the CVS... After all it is nice that all my work isn't wasted if I some day stops supporting my plug-ins and others could take over and fix bugs. (Not that I plan on leaving QCD plug-in development anytime soon...)

Anyway, I would like to help with the development of BASS but I have very little experience in coding input/output plug-ins. :( I'll sure have a look at the source the comming days, but Im not really sure what the problems with the plug-in is right now. (Going to use the bug tracker shaohao?)

Eerie silence in this thread...

[brian]

I wouldn't be surprised if Shao Hao got fed up with all the conflicting demands made on him in this thread. But perhaps he's just giving it a rest so that he can return to it fresh.

[Roj]

I wouldn't be surprised if Shao Hao got fed up with all the conflicting demands made on him in this thread. But perhaps he's just giving it a rest so that he can return to it fresh.

I'm sorry but if you're a dev, conflicting demands are part of your daily life, like breathing air. Also, detailed discussion is what makes products better. I daresay that if some of the other plugins had been subjected to a fraction of the scrutiny and discussion that this one has, they would be a damned sight better than they are today.

That being said, I hope he is indeed giving it a rest. What we don't need is yet another unfinished plugin.

[brian]

When a person undertakes development work as a hobby, rather than because they are paid for it, they are free to decide exactly how much hassle they are prepared to live with. Shao Hao is under no obligation to anyone here.

[madjo]

I'm sorry but if you're a dev, conflicting demands are part of your daily life, like breathing air. Also, detailed discussion is what makes products better. I daresay that if some of the other plugins had been subjected to a fraction of the scrutiny and discussion that this one has, they would be a damned sight better than they are today.

That being said, I hope he is indeed giving it a rest. What we don't need is yet another unfinished plugin.
Don't you F-ing forget Dev's are members of the human spieces too! And can get fed up by people demanding things without paying... remember ShaoHao does this in his spare time, without getting paid.. you have no right (I repeat NO RIGHT) to make demands this and that... just suggestions to make.

How would you feel if your boss would make large amounts of demands, without paying you for your work?

[Aaron]

When a person undertakes development work as a hobby, rather than because they are paid for it, they are free to decide exactly how much hassle they are prepared to live with. Shao Hao is under no obligation to anyone here.

Indeed. He's 'working' for free.

The fact he has made the source code available (under the GPL no less) gives an opportunity for others to contribute. It also gives people the opportunity to learn from the source code.

There is essentially nothing stopping other's from learning C++ and contributing if they wish to see this plugin in a more complete state.

If you *really* want this plugin finished, and don't want to or can't contribute in a direct fashion, why not pay Shao Hao some $'s?

He could 'opt-in' to the sourceforge.net donation system and any funds could be contributed to the project.

Either way - its a case of put up or shut up ;)

Aaron

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I believe that all Shao Hao wishes for is some one who can help him and has an extensive knowledge of coding. I cant help him. I know nothing about coding, c++ or whatever. I can, however, give advice and suggestions, which is what i've done. I would be a shame if the finished product would not be satisfactory. It is, however, also a shame if a suggestion is carried out but not completed, which is what's at stake here. If at first you dont succeed...

[Roj]

When a person undertakes development work as a hobby, rather than because they are paid for it, they are free to decide exactly how much hassle they are prepared to live with. Shao Hao is under no obligation to anyone here.

Well and good. It also says a lot about someone if a job is left unfinished or in a broken state. I invite you to review plugin history here before making further comment.

[Roj]

Don't you F-ing forget Dev's are members of the human spieces too! And can get fed up by people demanding things without paying... remember ShaoHao does this in his spare time, without getting paid.. you have no right (I repeat NO RIGHT) to make demands this and that... just suggestions to make.

How would you feel if your boss would make large amounts of demands, without paying you for your work?

First off:

CHILL.

There are people here who I daresay are considerably further up the dev foodchain than you are (one is responsible for several large database apps) and THEY don't appear to be taking this nearly as personally as you are.

I do a LOT of things in my spare time without getting paid for it and if someone comes to me and says the job isn't done right, you know something? I Fix It. Why? For one reason and one reason only, since it's on My Time: I Take Pride In My Work And I Always Finish Whatever I Start. Sometimes that requires that I go not one but several extra miles

YMMV.

As to devs being members of the human race, that's correct - often however they appear to forget that they are and develope products that definitely leave that in question because they were built with a mindset that was anything but user-oriented. Then others have to step in and correct the mess.

There are enough products out there fitting that description that obviate any hope you could ever have of denying that fact.

Paul is a great example of a dev who doesn't fir that profile as evidenced by his work - I trust that you don't either.

[Roj]

If you *really* want this plugin finished, and don't want to or can't contribute in a direct fashion, why not pay Shao Hao some $'s?

He could 'opt-in' to the sourceforge.net donation system and any funds could be contributed to the project.

Either way - its a case of put up or shut up ;)

If and when I pay, I call ALL the shots and that means timeline, quality assurance and deliverables. At that point I'm the customer and that by definition makes me God. Now THAT is a "put up or shut up sitiuation" as more than one contractor with the organization I work for has found out to his dismay. (BFEG)

Always be careful what you ask for... :) :) :)

[Roj]

I believe that all Shao Hao wishes for is some one who can help him and has an extensive knowledge of coding. I cant help him. I know nothing about coding, c++ or whatever. I can, however, give advice and suggestions, which is what i've done. I would be a shame if the finished product would not be satisfactory. It is, however, also a shame if a suggestion is carried out but not completed, which is what's at stake here. If at first you dont succeed...

I've done the advice / suggestion / beta test thing which is as far as I'm prepared to go since I'm no programmer nor will I ever be. Aparrently some feel that's untoward. I care not. To them I say one thing they seem ill acquainted with, namely "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well - welcome to the real world".

That may mean taking some heat every now and then. I know because I've been there on occasion (yes, even for free).

"You learn to deal or you squeal" as an old buddy from the armed forces used to say.

[Aaron]

That may mean taking some heat every now and then. I know because I've been there on occasion (yes, even for free).

"You learn to deal or you squeal" as an old buddy from the armed forces used to say.

That quote sounds like it comes from a prison but anyway :o

To quote a friend of mine:

"Free software projects are usually developed by various individuals scattered around the Internet, forming an online community of developers. Often they get involved because they themselves want to use the program. Usually one person is in charge of the project and various contributors submit changes to that person. If a change is not considered worthy, it is publicly discarded. There is strong social pressure to submit quality material — your position in the community is determined by the material you submit. It is a modern example of a gift economy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy"

I trust Shaohao takes sufficient pride in his work (and the vast majority people in the free and opensource community do) to see this plugin to fruition. Since this is a volunteer effort it is really down to whatever time he can allow to the project.

There are a number here who are able to beta-test which is always very helpful for a programmer.

Aaron

[Roj]

That quote sounds like it comes from a prison but anyway :o


As I said, he was in the military. :) :) :)

Your other points are well taken.

[madjo]

First off:

CHILL.okay, so I may have overreacted (a little)... but still it gives me great pain, that people start demanding stuff, while the developer is just doing them a favor...

There are people here who I daresay are considerably further up the dev foodchain than you are (one is responsible for several large database apps) and THEY don't appear to be taking this nearly as personally as you are. I may not develop some large scale software product... I am however working as a volunteer on a (forum) helpdesk for a weblogtool (for say about 10 hours a week, often more)... and I will go (and have done so in the past) above and beyond the call of duty to help out... often taking large amounts of time out of my spare time to help out... be it template redesigning, or digging into the code to fix things/find things out. And yes, also there I encounter people who make demands that this and this should be fixed immediately... and most of the time I'm much more civilized in dealing with that than I've been here lately (sorry 'bout that)

I do a LOT of things in my spare time without getting paid for it and if someone comes to me and says the job isn't done right, you know something? I Fix It. Why? For one reason and one reason only, since it's on My Time: I Take Pride In My Work And I Always Finish Whatever I Start. Sometimes that requires that I go not one but several extra miles
That may be, but you don't go demanding this and that... you simply ask, or suggest... that was the part that struck me the most...

Shaohao is doing a fine job with this plugin.. it isn't finished yet, but he is on the right road.

again, I apologize for my rude behaviour...

*rant out*

[Aaron]

again, I apologize for my rude behaviour...

*rant out*

Don't sweat it. We're all friends here...

Aaron

[Roj]

Stress I can understand and sympathize with entirely. Just yesterday I wrote a six hour exam, the preparation for which has monopolized my every waking scrap of *personal* free time since last October.

I may make strong suggestions and / or requests but I never out and out demand. If I did, trust me, you would recognise it without any difficulty whatsoever. :)

Peace, mon.

I do hope that Shaohao *stays* on this road.

[brian]

The basic problem, as I see it, is that Shao Hao didn't get a clear message from the contributors to this thread. He was doing fine, patiently fixing bugs in his all-in-one plugin, then the idea of splitting it came up and threw the whole discussion off balance. So at this stage it simply isn't clear what we are expecting him to do.

[hedge]

The basic problem, as I see it, is that Shao Hao didn't get a clear message from the contributors to this thread. He was doing fine, patiently fixing bugs in his all-in-one plugin, then the idea of splitting it came up and threw the whole discussion off balance. So at this stage it simply isn't clear what we are expecting him to do.
The thing is, in any peice of software there will always be differing requests. The thing the developer needs to do is decide which he thinks will be worthwhile to do. We were ultimately only putting across our thoughts on the matter, not forcing his hand one way or the other.

[Roj]

The thing is, in any peice of software there will always be differing requests. The thing the developer needs to do is decide which he thinks will be worthwhile to do. We were ultimately only putting across our thoughts on the matter, not forcing his hand one way or the other.

Thank you for saying that. Enough of this "poor confused puppy" nonsense. You have to be a big boy and say what you can and cannot do, ask questions if you're still unclear (what a novel concept!), Make A Decision and then Follow Through With It. That's not much to ask in the grand scheme of things - it's called "Life".