It's gotten a little more intense

[B.E.L.B.H.D.]

Doctor: Yushchenko Poisoned With Dioxin (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041211%2F1605280490.htm&sc=1103&photoid=20020328FRA103)

[jkrzok]

What comes to mind after hearing about the Ukraine is that if it's so difficult to hold democratic elections in a relatively well-off, well-educated country more or less at peace with itself...

What the hell kind of chance does Iraq have?

What scares me most of all is Russian behavior through all of this. Are we seeing the rebirth of an Imperialist Russia? Is Russian behavior not all that different from the elections fixed or overthrown by the US? Russia certainly has national security issues in Ukraine and that is the kind of justification used by the US time and again. Perhaps we're seeing a new version of old Russian Pan-Slavism with Russia again in the big brother role.

I just can't believe the Russians would be so incompetent. Perhaps they need CIA advisors.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I suppose we all hope that Yushchenko wins the next elections. Putin's actions are indeed a bit pathetic towards Urkraine. He should realise by now that the majority in Ukraine (at least in Kiev) do not want to remain under Russian control no more. I'm glad that so far there has been little bloodshed. That is the last thing we'd want.

Incidentally, the colour Yushchenko's supporters use is orange, the same colour the Netherlands uses as national colour (ie see Dutch national football team). So if there are some supporters in the Ukraine still needing something orange, they should give us a buzz :laugh:

[rorythedog]

It could be a return to a more Imperialist outlook or, maybe the Russians recognize that US foreign policy requires a counterweight. I remember, all through school, being told how the USSR was the evil Empire, and maybe it was, to Soviet citizens. But to the rest of the world, in hindsight, the USSR was a tremendous stabilising force. Mutually Assured Destruction had it's benefits. The world, bizarrely, was a safer place then.

The Ukranian election results were undoubtedly fraudulent but , like in the US, the outcome of the new election is still likely to be a very close run thing. I for one hope they can maintain their alignment with Russia. I suspect it will be better for the rest of us.

[rorythedog]

And Rex, the Ukranians are not under "Russian control". They are an independent Nation.

[jkrzok]

With the exception of its large stockpile of aging nukes I don't think Russia has what it takes to serve as an effective counterweight to the US. They don't even have an ideology they can sell the rest of the world anymore. I'm looking more to the EU or China to balance out the world. Perhaps only within their own spheres of influence, but by both acting as counters to US imperialistic influences within those spheres they could be as effective as a single super power.

Then there's part of me wondering if we're seeing the world split along a religious dichotomy (Christian-Secular-Western vs Islamic-Eastern). This rivalry has a history older than even the existence of the modern nation-state. Is it any wonder that al-Quada calls the West 'Crusaders?'

It's interesting how with the end of the Soviet collapse we went from a high stability-high consequence (the world could end in a nuclear war but it wasn't likely) to a low stability-low consequence (the world won't end but very bad things are more likely to happen) world.

[B.E.L.B.H.D.]

Well politically everyone is unsure about what will happen. We do know that, with that face, he is not going to be on the cover of GQ anytime soon :skull:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

And Rex, the Ukranians are not under "Russian control". They are an independent Nation.

Yeah, slip of the tongue. I meant Russian sphere of influence.

I for one hope they can maintain their alignment with Russia. I suspect it will be better for the rest of us.

I totally disagree man. People in Ukraine know that their lives will improve if their country opens up to the west. I think they should be given that chance. Then there is always that slight possibility that in the distant future Ukraine may become part of the European Union.

Go Yushchenko! :)

[jkrzok]

People in Ukraine know that their lives will improve if their country opens up to the west. I think they should be given that chance. Then there is always that slight possibility that in the distant future Ukraine may become part of the European Union.

Go Yushchenko! :)

I don't think it's that simple. There's a very sizable minority of ethnic Russians in Ukraine, especially the east. they have a very different view on closer ties to the West.

[rorythedog]

My point was not so much that they would be a "real" threat to the US, more that they would be a "perceived" threat. The world was a safer place when the Americans had something to be afraid of. Hell, I don't believe that the USSR was ever a threat to the USA. More, that the "perception" of a threat suited both parties at the time. It is, despite recent events, the US public that controls the reigns of power. And, when the time is right, I believe the US public will do the right thing.

Can I just say at this point that, as alluded to in another thread, that I do not blame Americans for the current state of world affairs. I am equally powerless over here. I am genuinely fearfull of what I suspect is coming next. US leaders are doing all this under the pretence of protecting Christian beliefs. If this is the case, and you are a Christian who does not believe in this way, then, as a Christian, you must stand up and be counted. It follows that, if you are a Christian, and you do believe in your country's foreign policies, then I for one, want to hear it. We have a very short time on this Earth and I want to see it. I've said all this before. I don't think it's too much to ask that we all try to accomodate each other a bit more. For all our sakes.

Pitiful Rant is over.

P.S. I belong to no Religion.

[Sheepeh]

Can I just say at this point that, as alluded to in another thread, that I do not blame Americans for the current state of world affairs. I am equally powerless over here. I am genuinely fearfull of what I suspect is coming next. US leaders are doing all this under the pretence of protecting Christian beliefs. If this is the case, and you are a Christian who does not believe in this way, then, as a Christian, you must stand up and be counted. It follows that, if you are a Christian, and you do believe in your country's foreign policies, then I for one, want to hear it. We have a very short time on this Earth and I want to see it. I've said all this before. I don't think it's too much to ask that we all try to accomodate each other a bit more. For all our sakes.

Pitiful Rant is over.

P.S. I belong to no Religion.

If only more people thought like this, the world would be a utopia. The world's a big place, but once a war starts we're all gonna see it. Or rather, we won't - war doesn't exist any more. There are no rules, no honour. Whatever happened to mutual respect? You're down in the local, you spill a bloke's pint - you say "sorry mate, what are you having?" without being asked, an unwritten rule and that goes even if he isn't a seven foot tall built-like-a-brick-excrement-house wrestler. There's no need for confrontation. Just as there's no need for poverty, famine or any of that crap. It's just the Western government being greedy f*cks. I actually agree with many of the terrorists in fact on a lot of their points (except the freaky radical guys) but the way they've blown innocents up means I automatically WILL NOT help them in any way,shape of form. I'm happy to see som sense in Ireland at the moment, with the peace talks growing ever likely to succeed. Now all we need to do is get that whining f*ck to stop insisting on a polaroid when he's got an independant witness already ffs!

[rorythedog]

Re:Northern Ireland. I couldn't agree more about Paisley. Fact is, without the "Troubles" he would be an irrelevance. He's a moron. Unbelievably, in my country, he has a lot of support. Just come to a Scottish pub when the "Old Firm" are playing each other. High streets throughout the Central Belt turned into a war zone by bigots. And everybody else effectively held to ransom.

The irony is that, without the US publicly funding the IRA terrorists through NORAID, we'd have never got to this point. Another reason why US foreign policy garners very little support in this country. Hypocrisy!

[Zayoos]

Ukraine now = Poland 15 years ago...

I agree with Rex --> Go Yushchenko! :)