Smoother edges for skins

[yiki]

Hello,

First off, I would like to thank all those who work hard on making QCD better and better and still stay light and functional with each new version.

I have noticed that the round edges of the skins (the default one, for instance) are not smooth at all. In winamp 3, there is a feature which, when enabled, applies anti-alias to the skin edges, making them look nice and smooth. It would be nice to see this feature implemented in QCD.

Thanks,
Yi

[acozz]

It's been requested before, the demand for it is great so it may be implemented sometime.

[yiki]

Thanks, that's awesome. I can't wait to see it implemented. :)
Keep up the excellent work.

[Young Twig]

haha... where's chicubs? :D

[shaohao]

The 32 bit high quality PNG image is the best solution. But I think QCD should be rewrite its whole skin architecture.

[chicubs]

ALPHA BLENDING!!!! ANTI-ALIASING!!! Lich, join in on this!!

[Paul]

The 32 bit high quality PNG image is the best solution. But I think QCD should be rewrite its whole skin architecture.
I happen to like the skinning engine. I'm not resorting to this engine, I'm deisigning it to be this way.

(and to repeat: png has nothing to do with skinning capabilities)

[fatal error]

I like the jaggies cuz I practiced making them look good to myself

[Toe]

(and to repeat: png has nothing to do with skinning capabilities)
I'm probably missing something here, but...

The biggest advantage to PNG that I know of (at least in the present context, and I assume this is the same reason shaohao wants PNGs) is its support for full alpha channels, ie every pixel having its own transparency level. AFAIK the current BMP setup has now way of allowing this, correct? I can think of many possibilities for skins that this would allow, although it would be limited without a decent layering system. And I have no idea how much work it would take to implement that, but I'd immagine it's no small task.

Just my 2 cents, of course. Simple anti-aliased edges is a much higher priority.

[Paul]

You're absolutely right about the benefits of using PNG images.

And I have no idea how much work it would take to implement that, but I'd immagine it's no small task.

And that is all I'm trying to get at. PNG doesn't buy anything when it comes to implementation.

Just my 2 cents, of course. Simple anti-aliased edges is a much higher priority.

Sure, but to make one pixel transparent takes a much effort as doing it for all.

Per-pixel alpha is on my list of skinning features. I'm just not jazzed to do it yet, not until the other items on the list above it are done. IMO P.P.A. doesn't make the player any better or more usable, and will be forgetten the moment it's implemented. It doubles the amount of RAM used (literally, since Windows must keep secondary internal display buffers for the entire application to pull the effect off) and it really crunches the CPU (Winamp 3 & 5 testify to that).

I understand that skinners want a canvas to do whatever their hearts desire. But I think most people want a player, and that's what I enjoy implementing. I also think that the real test of creativity comes when there are constraints that must be adheared to.

[Heigar]

P.P.A would be nice ,but I would rather save my computers rescources,seeing that I have photoshop running probably 95% of the time that I'm on it,among other programs.As being a skinner in my opinion being creative enough to make a skin without P.P.A is what makes you an artist.I'm not saying that with P.P.A that you wouldn't be an artist that i tend to like alittle creative challenge.

[Toe]

Sure, but to make one pixel transparent takes a much effort as doing it for all.
Really? Hrm, I was figguring that somewhere in the land of Windows APIs there was a way that you could turn on anti-aliasing for just the edges of an object, simmilar to how I can go into windows control panel and turn screen font anti-aliasing on or off, or how the alpha plugin sets a flag to turn on transparency for the whole window. Maybe off in DirectX land? (not that I'm suggesting that for QCD)

EDIT: And I think I agree with Heigar, I would probably leave it turned off most of the time. Besides, I'd rather see a few other things implemented into QCD first, like resizable playlists, or, well, a few other things I've had in mind for QCD and will probably start threads about sometime. ;)

[Paul]

Really? Hrm, I was figguring that somewhere in the land of Windows APIs there was a way that you could turn on anti-aliasing for just the edges of an object, simmilar to how I can go into windows control panel and turn screen font anti-aliasing on or off, or how the alpha plugin sets a flag to turn on transparency for the whole window. Maybe off in DirectX land? (not that I'm suggesting that for QCD)
There is a class style flag for XP that does an automatic drop shadow which is no extra code. But I don't think that is what's wanted. It only draws a shadow down and to the right (like on XP's menus), which won't help for edges facing up or to the left.

[Lich]

Hey! Don't forget I'm the Supreme Fanatic of Alphablending!
"I'll prove you wrong" (c) Sepultura

I've made some quick stress test on QCD 4.1 and WA5 beta 2. All plugins in QCD are disabled, except for MP3input and Crossfader, Phaseless skin. WA left on defaults, Mercury skin with alphablending enabled.

I've launced palyers with empty players, loaded 39 Gb of MP3's into them, played first track, minimized them, restored, scrolled alot forward and back, switched songs without order.
Results are... very interesting.
Without serious load QCD is doubtless leader. Minimized to tray and paused it uses lesser than 1Mb of RAM, while WA takes ~6Mb. In real environment difference is smaller, near 2 times. CPU usage is equal and nonessential - near 0%, very rarely 2-3%.
BUT after using both player with more zeal (scrolling, switching, sorting, jumping) QCD goes down to WA underworld and takes 26Mb against Winamp's 22Mb:) CPU usage is the same.

After re-enabling my favorite plugins in QCD (Resumer, Timer, Ogg input/encoder, AMIP) memory usage jumped to 32Mb. Make up yor mind.

So, what are findings?
1. I think 4-10Mb of 512Mb RAM installed on my Athlon is good payment for Resizeability, Alphablending and Animation with Scripting. Although I'm interested only in firsts two features:)
2. QCD has much more effective core.
3. I've tried QCD on some really old Pentium-75 with Win95.osr2 installed, and QCD crashed every five minutes and not allowed me to use Preferences (just blank window appeares). In the same time war between AMD and Intel, ATi and nVidia, Hyundai and Samsung, brought to us cheap and powerful computers. Why grasping for ten-years old crap?

Also, after a lot of thinking, I must agree with Paul about PNG. It neither nessesary for PPT implementation, nor too suitable. All can be done via additional BMP map, defining opacity level. This way we are getting superior backward compability and possibility for skinners not to use PPT just omitting this BMP.

"Hear me now!" (c) Cradle o Filth
Freeeform skinning of QCD is currently stopped by extrem ugliness of non-square edges. I see them every day using phaseless. Just give us possibility to use alphablending and we will prove it worth it.
Skinners unite!:)

[chicubs]

nice findings lich!...I love smoooooth edges, but its Paul's player, so its up to him.

[Lich]

nice findings lich!...I love smoooooth edges, but its Paul's player, so its up to him.
It's not just smooth edges, but soft shadows ans semitransparent areas, crispy small border details... It's possibility to create skins of new style, what is disabled for us right now.

It's up to Paul, you're right. But we can "raise" priority of alphablending in his Great ToDo List:)

[Toe]

One small point: remember that the skin used can affect memory usage +/- a few MB. I did a quick test simmilar to Lich's using the skins Tubular (mode 3) and Scarab. There was a difference of 3-4MB between the two while sorting/scrolling/etc and while playing a song non-minimized. I would immagine the same holds true for WinAMP.

Also, after a lot of thinking, I must agree with Paul about PNG. It neither nessesary for PPT implementation, nor too suitable. All can be done via additional BMP map, defining opacity level. This way we are getting superior backward compability and possibility for skinners not to use PPT just omitting this BMP.
I don't follow you here. If the alpha is stored in a seperate BMP, that means from Photoshop I'd have to export the alpha channel as one file, and then save the flattened image as another file. Not a huge deal I suppose, but saving it as a single PNG with all transparency intact would be simpler. But what about someone not familiar with how to export the alpha channel from Photoshop, or someone using an editor that can save PNGs with transparency but doesn't offer a simple way to export the alpha channel alone? As for backwards compatibility, why would we have to drop support for BMPs? And all else being equal, I'd rather deal with one file than two. "Possibility for skinners not to use PPT just omitting this BMP." Skinners could also not use PPT simply by saving it as a 24bit PNG without transparency.

Besides, once all the files are loaded into memory, the two would look pretty much the same. PNG would probably make a brief CPU spike for decompression, and BMP would probably make a brief CPU spike while the two files are added together.

PNG is certainly not a magic bullet that solves the problem of how to do the alpha blending itself, but support I think should be included for the sake of simplicity and completeness.

[Lich]

If the alpha is stored in a seperate BMP, that means from Photoshop I'd have to export the alpha channel as one file, and then save the flattened image as another file.

Compared with making of BorderSet.bmp this is nothing:) But you're right, exporting PNG image of skin body with disabled background (resulting in desired transparency and antialiasing) is much more simplier.

Not a huge deal I suppose, but saving it as a single PNG with all transparency intact would be simpler.

Skins using PNG won't work with old versions of QCD, while new BMP will be just ignored...
Don't get me wrong, I like PNG (and prefer to work with it), just... trying to see objectively:)

Besides, once all the files are loaded into memory, the two would look pretty much the same. PNG would probably make a brief CPU spike for decompression, and BMP would probably make a brief CPU spike while the two files are added together.

As we see, CPU is idle with bitmapped QCD and int the same way with PNG alphablended WA.
Draw.

[Toe]

Skins using PNG won't work with old versions of QCD, while new BMP will be just ignored...
Ah, I see what you're saying. Wouldn't that be "upwards compatibility"?

Still, I'm not terribly worried about older versions being able to use my skin. QCD's skin downloader/installer can already take required versions into account, can't it? Though I am kinda curious as to how many out there are still using somewhat older (ie 3.x) versions of QCD.

[Lich]

Ah, I see what you're saying. Wouldn't that be "upwards compatibility"?

Sorry:) I've mixed up definitions:)

Though I am kinda curious as to how many out there are still using somewhat older (ie 3.x) versions of QCD.

Everyone who got QCD not via internet, I think.

[chicubs]

hey lich im just curious...can you do that test you did with wa5 and qcd and do it with sonique 2 and qcd and post your results? pretty please :p

[Lich]

hey lich im just curious...can you do that test you did with wa5 and qcd and do it with sonique 2 and qcd and post your results? pretty please :p
No problem, man:)
Default plugins, default skin, default setup. Kinda old alpha 2.1 - I am too lazy to download 6Mb of pre-known crap:)
Just started - 8Mb, 0%.
Collection loaded - 25Mb, 0% (reading of tags took half an hour against minute in QCD. Too sloooooow:().
Playing first track - 27Mb, 0-2%.
Minimized, playing - 6Mb, 0-2%.
Heavy usage - 27Mb, 0-2%.

Also I've tried some alphablended skins (not a clean experiment 'coz they all have built-in animation) and saw it pushes CPU usage to ~2-6% and adds ~50% to RAM used.

Heavy player, yeah? And current tag reading system is completely POS:) But Mantis... hmm... and playlist with rearrangeable columns with sort-by-click...
ummy:)

[chicubs]

Nov 6 build is probably better, thanks for doing to test :)

btw check out eascape pod, phobia, and modster by cerberus, now THATS skinning power!!

[Young Twig]

DUDE! We NEED alpha-blending in a month. If we don't have it, chicubs will not skin S2... Read it on DA.

[chicubs]

DUDE! We NEED alpha-blending in a month. If we don't have it, chicubs will not skin S2... Read it on DA.

you @(*$&@(*$^!!!


:p bah...didnt think anyone read da, just venting....alpha blending takes a LONG time to implement anyway...please dont take this as a threat...i still love ya paul :p :p

[regener8ed]

alpha blending. feh.

not worth the expense imho.

[Young Twig]

you @(*$&@(*$^!!!


:p bah...didnt think anyone read da, just venting....alpha blending takes a LONG time to implement anyway...please dont take this as a threat...i still love ya paul :p :p
sorry. you gave me the link and i read it. was I not supposed to?


EDIT: Hey check it out. I made a big mistake in that post. It doesn;'t look that threatening to Paul.

[chicubs]

sorry. you gave me the link and i read it. was I not supposed to?


EDIT: Hey check it out. I made a big mistake in that post. It doesn;'t look that threatening to Paul.

lol, yah I forgot about the link I wrote the entry a while after I gave you the link, though.

[Young Twig]

lol, yah I forgot about the link I wrote the entry a while after I gave you the link, though.
I actually didn't click it when you gave me the link, but later on I was bored and noticed you had a "www" button in the bottom of your posts... I figured it was your DA site, so, I went.

[hedge]

bahh to alpha blending, its just gonna weigh things down...
look what happened with winamp 3 -->as good as dead
people preffered winamp 2 because it had speed, not smooth edges.
Winamp 5 might do it better, but when a modern skin is used its still a bulky pos.
There are other methods to make a skin look good.
People generally like programs that run fast even on older machines, hence winamp 2 won out over 3, hence y qcd is currently such a good playa, it manages speed whilst still looking good, alpha blending is just an afterthought, and usually only for skinners themselves.

[chicubs]

bahh to alpha blending, its just gonna weigh things down...
look what happened with winamp 3 -->as good as dead
people preffered winamp 2 because it had speed, not smooth edges.
Winamp 5 might do it better, but when a modern skin is used its still a bulky pos.
There are other methods to make a skin look good.
People generally like programs that run fast even on older machines, hence winamp 2 won out over 3, hence y qcd is currently such a good playa, it manages speed whilst still looking good, alpha blending is just an afterthought, and usually only for skinners themselves.

so we should stay with outdated computers?

[hedge]

so we should stay with outdated computers?
The truth of the matter is many people still use older, and somewhat outdated, computers.
These people should always be considered, they still make up a fair amount of the user base.

Most people like a music player that just sits in a corner, uses very little sys resources, and is going to reliably play music without slowing down other apps they are using. Alpha blended skins slow things down, use up memory and cpu power. Just look at S2's results in Lich's test, older computers would struggle with it, and multitasking would be thrown out the window.

Looking at this from another point of view (i am tired, therefore a little more biased then normal...), if alpha blending didn't weigh the app down much, and was maybe implemented in the form of a plugin that was able to be completely ignored in the installation, or turned off after, it would allow skinners to explore there ideas to a greater extent...

I wouldn't use it, or ever have it turned on, but that is just me, i want speed, i want a music player that sits in a corner and just plays music. I like a skin that looks good, but it has to have useability for me to use it. Music is after all about the audio, not the visual aspect.

[chicubs]

The truth of the matter is many people still use older, and somewhat outdated, computers.
These people should always be considered, they still make up a fair amount of the user base.

Most people like a music player that just sits in a corner, uses very little sys resources, and is going to reliably play music without slowing down other apps they are using. Alpha blended skins slow things down, use up memory and cpu power. Just look at S2's results in Lich's test, older computers would struggle with it, and multitasking would be thrown out the window.

Looking at this from another point of view (i am tired, therefore a little more biased then normal...), if alpha blending didn't weigh the app down much, and was maybe implemented in the form of a plugin that was able to be completely ignored in the installation, or turned off after, it would allow skinners to explore there ideas to a greater extent...

I wouldn't use it, or ever have it turned on, but that is just me, i want speed, i want a music player that sits in a corner and just plays music. I like a skin that looks good, but it has to have useability for me to use it. Music is after all about the audio, not the visual aspect.

Im just curious when you are playing music what other apps do you have going and what are your pc specs?
....I used to have a 466p3 with 64mb and Wa3 (yes 3) ran fine with photoshop, 2 ie, trillian open. So I dont understand all this crap about usage....now I have a 3000amd with 512mb and I can run just about every single program at the same time flawlessly....honestly its a joy to use skins like phobia, and mercury which have alpha blending, animations, etc and isnt the whole purpose of having skins to make the player look prettier?

[hedge]

Im just curious when you are playing music what other apps do you have going and what are your pc specs?
....I used to have a 466p3 with 64mb and Wa3 (yes 3) ran fine with photoshop, 2 ie, trillian open. So I dont understand all this crap about usage....now I have a 3000amd with 512mb and I can run just about every single program at the same time flawlessly....honestly its a joy to use skins like phobia, and mercury which have alpha blending, animations, etc and isnt the whole purpose of having skins to make the player look prettier?
Call me impatient, but i like a program to start up quickly, especially an audio player. Skins are nice, but not when they slow things down, even marginally. winamp 3 and winamp 5 with modern skins startup noticeably slower with alpha blending on. Sure, its a matter of a second or two, but y should i sacrifice that second on waiting for a program to load when i could be already playing a song.
Me, i have an athlon 2700 1gig ddr ram.
Sure, i could easily run winamp 3 along with everything else and not notice much of a slow down, but what im saying is that many people can't do this, and many people can't stand an audio player that is a resource hog. Look at the amount of posts on this forum talking about memory footprints, its obviously a concern to people...

[chicubs]

come on 1 or 2 seconds isnt going to decide anyones life here. Its like people who dont put a new toliet roll on because it takes 5-10 seconds....i understand your opinons/reasons, but I dont like my creativety held back because of people who have crappy computers...Id love it if you could do it via plugin but im 98% sure that is deinately not possible.

[hedge]

come on 1 or 2 seconds isnt going to decide anyones life here. Its like people who dont put a new toliet roll on because it takes 5-10 seconds....i understand your opinons/reasons, but I dont like my creativety held back because of people who have crappy computers...Id love it if you could do it via plugin but im 98% sure that is deinately not possible.
GO 2% GO!!!! :)
hmmm ive probably written quite a lot of crap in the last little while, but don't blame me, its 3 AM on a sunday morning...
neway, winamp 3 annoyed me when it took 2 seconds longer to load than winamp 2, winamp 5 with modern skins annoys me, and ive just tried sonique 2, and damm i didn't even get as far as dwl a skin for that and i was annoyed. TOO SLOW!!!
So in a nutshell --> I want speed. (help how did i get into this nutshell!!!):)

[chicubs]

GO 2% GO!!!! :)
hmmm ive probably written quite a lot of crap in the last little while, but don't blame me, its 3 AM on a sunday morning...
neway, winamp 3 annoyed me when it took 2 seconds longer to load than winamp 2, winamp 5 with modern skins annoys me, and ive just tried sonique 2, and damm i didn't even get as far as dwl a skin for that and i was annoyed. TOO SLOW!!!
So in a nutshell --> I want speed. (help how did i get into this nutshell!!!):)

lol, go to bed!! :p

[fatal error]

alpha blending. feh.
i echo this sentiment

[Young Twig]

I think a lot of people want alpha-lending and some don't. I have an idea, I have an idea... an option. You know those little checkbox things. If you click it it goes on and if you click it again it goes off. Those things are cool.

Personally, I have gotten remarks on SysMetrix skins like
"eww. get rid of the jaggies and then I'll use it."
Uh... Truth is, lots of people think jaggies are ugly as sin...

[Heigar]

come on 1 or 2 seconds isnt going to decide anyones life here. Its like people who dont put a new toliet roll on because it takes 5-10 seconds....i understand your opinons/reasons, but I dont like my creativety held back because of people who have crappy computers...Id love it if you could do it via plugin but im 98% sure that is deinately not possible.
And I'm sure people with slow and outdated (crappy) Computers don't want to be held back from listening to music with the awesome QCD,and IMHO I think a lot of people who have outdated computers are fortunate enough to have a computer at all.

[chicubs]

And I'm sure people with slow and outdated (crappy) Computers don't want to be held back from listening to music with the awesome QCD,and IMHO I think a lot of people who have outdated computers are fortunate enough to have a computer at all.

then they can stay with older versions of qcd that wouldnt support alpha blending. I mean QCD is flawless right now.

[Heigar]

then they can stay with older versions of qcd that wouldnt support alpha blending. I mean QCD is flawless right now.

Then what if a build comes out with a feature they were waiting for or some thing ,then they get held to an older build without that feature ?A way to turn alpa blending on and off would definenatly have to be implemented.(If paul would want to keep all of the user base)!

[chicubs]

Then what if a build comes out with a feature they were waiting for or some thing ,then they get held to an older build without that feature ?A way to turn alpa blending on and off would definenatly have to be implemented.(If paul would want to keep all of the user base)!

yes, of course! I know winamp 3/5 have this option...I wonder what the usage is without alpha blending on?...lich?
:p

[Heigar]

Man is my spelling bad ,What the hell is alpa blending?:o but anyway with alpha blending support IMHO the QCD user base would probably increase.For me though I've lived this long without it,but if QCD supported it I would use it!

[Young Twig]

Hey, I have a 566mHz computer. That's what I use 80% of the time. I've used Winamp 5 with alpha blending and it's not that bad. People need to calm down about speed... and stop taking speed. :p

[Heigar]

Hey, I have a 566mHz computer. That's what I use 80% of the time. I've used Winamp 5 with alpha blending and it's not that bad. People need to calm down about speed... and stop taking speed. :pBut I like speed!:D

What about people with 233's or less ,I think that would have a big impact on system performance.

[Young Twig]

What about people with 233's or less ,I think that would have a big impact on system performance.
233's? Those are kinda like WAY in the past. 566 is so far behind... 233 is less than half of that.

[Heigar]

233's? Those are kinda like WAY in the past. 566 is so far behind... 233 is less than half of that.
There are people who still have a 233 or even a 166,my mother in law still has a 233 ,but all she uses it for is emailing and instant messaging!

[Toe]

Given that Windows 2000 is necessary for desktop alpha blending, I think we can count on users having a system that can run w2k reasonably well if they're planning to use any alpha feature of QCD. Maybe a P2-400 with 256MB RAM as a realistic minimum for this feature?

Also, what would/will be done about skins meant to use alpha blending that are loaded on a version of QCD where the alpha option is available but disabled? Perhaps we'll need some sort of option in the skin's config file to provide an alternate form if alpha isn't available. Actually, come to think of it, it might be better if 'no alpha available' is treated as default, for reasons of backwards compatibility. A sort of "do this if and only if alpha is available" tag would be used any time the skin author wanted to use something that would break the skin if alpha were turned off. Hopefully this would make skin authors be a bit kinder to those who have alpha turned off. :rolleyes:

(for the record, I have no idea how this is handled in other apps)

[Lich]

2 Toe:
We've already discussed about compability, remember?:)
--
Enjoy simulation:)

[Xymantix]

Good one Lich :) But you forgot the other missing effect:

o Fade between button states

[Lich]

Fade between button statesYeah, you're right. This feature was a real candy in Sonique 1. Skinner-proof, free and always beautiful!

[l-courni]

Good one Lich :) But you forgot the other missing effect:

o Fade between button states

that would be sweet !

[Willow of Oz]

To add another voice to the throng:
Alpha blending et al would be nice. If it was there I might use it.
Increasing the load time will disproportionately decrease the perceived responsiveness of the application (that's a mouthful!).

I guess the main thing that people should consider is the development time. Even if it is snappy and responsive, and can be turned on or off, Paul still has to spend time implementing it. And if you've ever glanced at the sticky of requested features, I dare say everyone* is bound to see at least a few that they'd rather have before AB.


excluding skinners