iraq

[ianjohnson_nz]

Dear all

I can't hold it in, I just have to get my anger about this out to someone, so thanks in advance for listening.

I've just been reading about the latest set of photos and videos obtained by the Washington Post. story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43783-2004May20.html)

Naive as it may sound, I am still in shock at the contempt in which the US armed forces hold the very people they are supposed to be liberating. Just in the last few days, we have seen a wedding party decimated (although the US claims it was "foreign insurgents", this seems increasingly unlikely) and the release of further appalling evidence of gross abuse and negligence of fellow humans at Abu Ghraib.

How can any US citizen possibly stand up for the conduct of their armed forces? The US armed forces have a well-earned world reputation for being better attackers than facilitators. Shoot first, ask questions later. Sure, it might keep US casualties to a minimum, but at what cost? 82% of Iraqis reportedly "hate" Americans, yet the USA was supposed to be the very country that liberalised those same people. Who is to blame for this? The Iraqis? No way. The USA's heart might be in the right place (and even that seems debatable), but boy, are they going about it in the wrong way.

It's no longer a matter of "God Bless the United States of America" - but rather "God Save the United States of America". What horrifies me the most is that Bush seems to genuinely believe he is acting out God's will. Well, I'm no priest, nor even religious, but I don't see what part of God's will includes treating fellow human beings in the manner USA forces do.

Shame on you, the USA.

[georgiek50]

"What horrifies me the most is that Bush seems to genuinely believe he is acting out God's will."

I highly doubt that...I genuinely believe he is carrying out his own will while effectively passing on an image that it is the will of the Lord.

Anyone with a bit of scepticism in them can see through his intentions, it's just too bad that so few people question the actions of their government. But people are starting to wake up though, slowly but surely.

[Tokelil]

I just hope that Bush isn't running things after next election. Needless to say that Im not a big fan of him and I dont understand why Denmark has to support him and his war. :( (Though I wouldn't want the Danish government to pull the plug now that we are there...)

[jkrzok]

War dehumanizes. I don't care who or what you're fighting for, you have to think of the "enemy" as something different and apart from you and your compatriots in order to freely kill them. This then makes atrocities possible. I can see that the American soldiers in those famous pictures see those prisoners as something less than American, or human. This is the nature of war. When one starts a war one has to accept this sort of behavior as a natural consequence of war. This then has to be added to the costs of war. What does war do to the humanity of the combatant? Is this an acceptable price to pay?

There are of course degrees involved. I would much rather be a prisoner of Americans than Al-Quada. In World War 2 there was the horror of the Eastern front, with two combatants plumbing new depths of inhumanity. There was the Western front, still a war zone, but without the same level of horror. Yes there were atrocities committed, even by the Western Allies, but at least there was some effort to obey the rules of war. Even Hitler didn't use weapons of mass destruction.

I do not support this war. I never have. From day one I saw the "weapons of mass destruction" justification as a cynical ploy. Bush would have invaded Iraq no matter what. As to his intentions, I do believe he thinks he is carrying out God's will. He speaks too often about the battle between good and evil for my comfort. I think that 9/11 cost Bush his ability to see shades of gray. He really does think that if you're not with him you're against him.

I fear the long term consequences of this war. What enemies has Bush created? The events in those pictures are a natural outcome of the decision to go to war. It seemed to me that the best way to win the war on terror was to win the "hearts and minds" of the Islamic street. Which image of America will last the longest after the war? I fear it will be the image of a hooded prisoner, wired to electrodes, not the American handing out chocolate bars to the people he liberated. America's credibility is lost. We in America fought a revolution against the very behavior we're exhibiting in Iraq.

I was unashamedly proud to be an American. I now have questions about Bush's America. Notice my UN flag in my country selection. A small protest.

What will be the final cost of this war? I would bet Saddam is still smirking.

[chicubs]

Maybe we should all shout "God is great" while cutting off an american's head....Maybe a little bit worse than Bush? Maybe?... I support our soldiers 100%, I dont give a damn if the cause is a little iffy. Without them, I would be drafted into the war. And I am thankful everyday for that.
The last two admins of the US have both gone about terrorism in different ways with differing success. Clinton was a nice pres as he was able to get good relations with most countries; however, when terrorism did happen like the US embassy's in Africa, he did little to nothing about it. Bush, on the other hand, attacked terrorism straight on, and in Afghanistan was largely a success besides not capturing Bin Laden. In Iraq, I believe they were right in deposing Saddam and I think that most Iraqis were thankful, but then the US is being stupidly slow in changing power back to the iraqis. Too many US soldiers have lost their lives recently, and so have the new iraqi officials (one is seemingly assainated everyday)

jkrzok, I am going to be brutally honest with you. I cant respect you if you are ashamed to be american. I have lived outside the US and have never been more happy when I moved back to the US. If people in other countries dont realize that not everyone is as blodd-thirsty as Bush, then thats their stupidty. Does Bin Laden represent the Middle East? Of course, not. Does the Saudi gov represent Saudi Arabia? Again, of course not

[Tokelil]

The really sad thing about this Bush crusade agaist terrorism is that Im afraid it might have the opposite effect. USA attacked Irak claiming that they was a threat to USA and IMO the whole war showed that there was no threat! So there is the reason to remove a dictator left and frankly thats no reason to attack another country. This war has only achieved to make more enimies of USA (and allies) and turn the middel east and muslims agaist them. (IMO)

[Roj]

Just in the last few days, we have seen a wedding party decimated (although the US claims it was "foreign insurgents", this seems increasingly unlikely) and the release of further appalling evidence of gross abuse and negligence of fellow humans at Abu Ghraib.From what I know of US military servicemen, this is most definitely NOT the norm in terms of conduct.

The US armed forces have a well-earned world reputation for being better attackers than facilitators.Hold up here. there's a distinction between the soldiers of the armed forces and those who command them. Please don't blame soldiers for the stupid orders of their commanders. One should not tar and feather an entire force for the actions of a number of bad apples.

Now, as to the war itself:

IMO, the US waged war on Iraq for a couple of reasons, none of which had anything to do with liberating the Iraqui people. The weapons of mass destruction were a lie - a constructed excuse, if you will - plain and simple. Several people, some with very high standing, have stepped forward with that statement and all have been hushed in various ways. The US went to Iraq because of oil resources and Saudi urging (that has clearly backfired in the face of rising oil prices) and perhaps because George W. wanted a PR coup to distract the American public from his lame duck domestic policies (again this has backfired - the PR backlash has only just begun). He also wanted to appear as the tough guy in the face of 9/11 and indicate that "no one pushes the US around".

Useless posturning.

John Wayne he ain't.

That being said, I do wish that the US would mind its own business instead of everyone else's. They have enough problems at home without going looking for others abroad that don't concern them and result in 20 years of foreign policy coming home to roost rather graphically (9/11). If they would learn from those mistakes and tend to their own more pressing domestic issues (health care and urban decay perhaps?), it might save some of their citizens needless grief in the future.

Was the US right to depose Saddam?

No.

They had no moral right.

In fact they had no right whatsoever in any way, shape or form.

It was none of their business.

Any more than the foreign policy scenarios of the Shah of Iran, Pinochet, Marcos and Noriega were their business (there's that 20 year foreign policy track record I referred to earlier).

I found it amusing that Paul Martin when he first took office issued a statement that Canada could take care of its own security affairs and didn't need any help from our neighbours to the south - a rather interesting tongue-in-cheek comment on American "aid". I'm equally glad that Cretien kept us out of an unjust war that was based on a lie. We have a global reputation of having cooler heads and had no business being there.

Finally, here's a point that will illustrate the situation vis a vis American foreign policy and respect for the country and its citizens quite clearly (since I've noticed the word "respect" has cropped up in this thread):

Canadian citizens can still proudly wear the Canadian flag on their backpacks wherever in the world they go without fear of reprisal.

Can American citizens do the same?

[Paul]

Bush, on the other hand, attacked terrorism straight on, and in Afghanistan was largely a success besides not capturing Bin Laden. In Iraq, I believe they were right in deposing Saddam and I think that most Iraqis were thankful, but then the US is being stupidly slow in changing power back to the iraqis. Too many US soldiers have lost their lives recently, and so have the new iraqi officials (one is seemingly assainated everyday)
How has Bush attacked terrorism head on?

- Afghanistan is a mess. The only part of the country under control is the capital Kabul, the rest has fallen back into warlords, and even Taliban control.

- Name one thing in Iraq that went they way the Bushies said it would?

The Bushies planned this Iraq war back in '98. So part of their war plans must have included a) getting elected b) finding (or making?) a reason to convince every one else that war was needed.

[Paul]

Oh, and about Bin Landen. I'll almost guarantee that he'll be caught the moment it's politically advantageous for Bush (close to the election?). Then many mindless voters will go "Holy shit we won! Bush really is great!".

How will he pull this off? Bin Laden is a tired old man wandering some hillside. He's been under the coallition's foot for years. He hasn't been picked up yet because it would be too embarrasing for Bush to have to him caught as he would have to find another reason to launch his wars.

[Roj]

If people in other countries dont realize that not everyone is as blodd-thirsty as Bush, then thats their stupidty.
They've had twenty years of gunboat diplomacy and invasive foreign policy to form their opinions.

I for one cannot blame them - the perception is quite compelling.

[matty28carter]

People see these pictures and videos and believe that this sort of thing has never and doesn't ever go on. War ISNT a pritty thing and the media just highlight things that will shock people. Obviously in this day and age this sort of thing shouldn't happen but to think it doesn't is just stupid.

[jkrzok]

jkrzok, I am going to be brutally honest with you. I cant respect you if you are ashamed to be american

Here we go. I am ashamed of what George Bush is doing to my country. He has made what I consider to be the most egregious error of the post WW2 era for what seem personal and ideological reasons that have nothing to do with the betterment of the US as a whole. How has the invasion of Iraq improved the security of the US? How has it bettered our standing in the war on terrorism? It has done neither. It has done the exact opposite. It has further radicalized countless Moslems around the world, all ready to die for their God in a sea of American blood.

We are in a war against terrorism. The invasion of Afghanistan could be justified in that war, even as the outcome is being botched by the Bush administration. The invasion of Iraq can not be justified by any standards of a just war. It is an example of wrong-headed short-term thinking that is proving disasterous for my country. We have destabilized a region of the world vital to our interests. What, for example, do you think Iran (or Syria, or Turkey) may do once the US leaves? What will we leave? We have also lost all our credibility in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

And I won't even go into what Bush II is doing domestically. Oh yes I will. These are but two recent examples of why Bush II has to go.

The non-partisan General Accounting Office (a Congressional office run by both parties) found that the Bush administration engaged in illegal, covert propaganda when it produced fake news segments about the new Medicare law and distributed them to local television stations. How Orwellian of George.

In December 2003, just after the president signed the Medicare bill, chief Medicare administrator Tom Scully joined a law firm that represents drug manufacturers and other major players in the health care industry who benefited from the law. The Bush administration granted Scully an ethics waiver "so that he could negotiate with potential employers while he helped write the Medicare law." How corrupt of our administration.

And a quote: "Being poor is a state of mind, not a condition." – HUD Secretary Alphonso Jackson's explanation to the House Financial Services Committee about why he refused to discuss housing the poor. How Christian of our administration. Apparantly HUD isn't about housing in Bush's America.

"I may not agree with what you say but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it" attributed to Voltaire. But wait, he's French... hence unacceptable. Freedom Fries!

[jkrzok]

If people in other countries dont realize that not everyone is as blodd-thirsty as Bush, then thats their stupidty. Does Bin Laden represent the Middle East?

But the President does represent the US. That is the function of his job. He is to act for the US in the international arena and when our representative is blood thirsty we all come off as blood thirsty. We hired (sort of) him. He's our responsibility.

The US armed forces have a well-earned world reputation for being better attackers than facilitators.

The US military are designed to kill our enemies. The State Department is designed to talk to them. It's all about what tool is best for what job. If there even is a job. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Paul]

I cant respect you if you are ashamed to be american
I understand where you're coming from, but I do think this attitude is a source of American problems.

Basically it says "My self worth is identified by being American. If I were to be removed from America, I would be less." Which doesn't say much for strength of character.

It can also lead to a belief of superiority (which all groups try to install - such as religions, nations, and cults) that leads to believing others are inferior. And that can lead to a mentality that non-american life is less important. This mentality can be seen played out in America's foreign policies.

I think the rest of the world (which protested the Iraq war, for example) is more inclined to see America as far less than perfect or even moral as they are not indentured with this mentality.

[Paul]

If people in other countries dont realize that not everyone is as blodd-thirsty as Bush, then thats their stupidty. Does Bin Laden represent the Middle East?
Then why is the next election even going to be close? Seems ~50% of Americans are just as blood thirsty.

[Qaz]

That being said, I do wish that the US would mind its own business instead of everyone else's. They have enough problems at home without going looking for others abroad that don't concern them and result in 20 years of foreign policy coming home to roost rather graphically (9/11). If they would learn from those mistakes and tend to their own more pressing domestic issues (health care and urban decay perhaps?), it might save some of their citizens needless grief in the future
And think about the amount of money spent on all those military operations and how else it could have been used. To improve everyday life.

np: Sly & The Family Stone - War (What Is It Good For)

And the answer is absolutely nothing.

Edit: Blah, I must be really tired. You pretty much said my whole point and I didn't get until I had posted myself.

[jkrzok]

I cant respect you if you are ashamed to be american

Basically it says "My self worth is identified by being American. If I were to be removed from America, I would be less." Which doesn't say much for strength of character.

What it means to be an American. A lot of our problems in this area stems from the fact/belief that America is a nation founded on an ideal. We are not just an accident of geography. To be an American is not just to be born within the geographical confines of the US but to subscribe to the ideals expressed in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. All American students repeat the Pledge of Allegiance each day. This and other propaganda events help setup the mind set that says if you don't agree with what the US is doing, you aren't a true American. We saw this in the Vietnam era and we're starting to see it now. In my mind someone that stands up and says that what my country and President is doing is wrong, out of true conviction, is more of an American than the man that marches behind that President in lock step merely because he is the President.

[GildedSplinter]

That being said, I do wish that the US would mind its own business instead of everyone else's. They have enough problems at home without going looking for others abroad that don't concern them and result in 20 years of foreign policy coming home to roost rather graphically (9/11). If they would learn from those mistakes and tend to their own more pressing domestic issues (health care and urban decay perhaps?), it might save some of their citizens needless grief in the future.

Bless you, Roj!!! Never have truer words been spoken! I told myself I was gonna stay away from this thread, but this one paragraph sums up my feelings on the matter, precisely. It seems that the American government has this insane habit of blowing countries up and then dumping billions of dollars back into them. 1 airplane full of money for each airplane full of bombs. I guess the government feels the need to ensure that there's a healthy, happy atmosphere for all of the people we've left alive, to hate our guts. STOP THE MADNESS :mad: This is what's referred to as a lose/lose situation!!! You could combine the annual income of every person I know, and still fall WAY short of HALF the cost of ONE of the bombs dropped during "shock & awe" (where they were tossing 'em around like beer cups at a hockey game). Tell me THAT money couldn't have been better spent. Our government doesn't take care of its elderly, retirement is a thing of the past, federal aid for health care (now THERE'S an idea!!!), it's virtually impossible to be a one income family so that parenting can once again become a priority (which would solve about a million other domestic issues we're suffering with). The list of good things that we could've done with that money goes on & on.
I'm all FOR the idea of finding the fuckers responsible for the murders of the 9/11 victims, and those who support them, stringing them from a tree and gutting them like deer. We can do that without spending billions of dollars, or getting our troops killed, or jeopardizing our allies or our relationships with them. Zakke Wylde & Ted Nugent would more than likely be able to handle the task themselves :bandit: HELL... They'd prob'ly do it for FREE!!!
This "keeping our nose in our own business" thang, is a double edged sword. Any time some small country somewhere is having a problem... who do they turn to for a hand out??? It's one thing, to strole over to the neighbors house to borrow a cup of sugar, but this "couple million dollars here, couple million dollars there" thang needs to stop every bit as quickly as the "bombs & dollars" campaign. Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing, if everybody just rolled out of bed in the morning, went to work, came home & enjoyed their families & went to bed again??? Why is THAT an antiquated notion??? :cry:

[chicubs]

Then why is the next election even going to be close? Seems ~50% of Americans are just as blood thirsty.

Because Bush has done pretty well for the country on the inside...all the complaints are about his foreign policy. My life has not changed in any significant way since 9/11 and I think thats doing a good job.

[chicubs]

Oh, and about Bin Landen. I'll almost guarantee that he'll be caught the moment it's politically advantageous for Bush (close to the election?). Then many mindless voters will go "Holy shit we won! Bush really is great!".

How will he pull this off? Bin Laden is a tired old man wandering some hillside. He's been under the coallition's foot for years. He hasn't been picked up yet because it would be too embarrasing for Bush to have to him caught as he would have to find another reason to launch his wars.

Thats bullshit Paul. I understand Canadians are generally a stand off country, but to say Bush is a mean spirited person is just stupid...I dont think he honestly started the war thinking "Im goignt to kill all those filthy a-rabs"....The afghan war was legit. If you dont see it that way, I would kick you a$$ if I saw you in teh street.

Dont call my countrymen mindless either...there is a reason why we are a super power and you guys are "america jr" - simpsons.

[Mootang]

Just a few points from me:

- The US, the only country in history to drop two deadly atomic bombs on populated residences, whipes out roughly 200,000 japanese CIVILIANS in a span of 9 months to initial insineration, hours of black rain and fallout(not insurgents cough cough), and this is a country currently loaded with 1000's of nuclear weapons (the US has used mini nukes in current Iraq war), and they have the audacity to call for war based on the the reason that Sadamn may find, make and use nuclear weapons on civilians (of course he had supposedly looked to Africa, maybe Nelsom Mendela (joke) to obtain them,it is too laugh).

- I can not stand people who think that this war has nothing to do with oil. Oil is not all the Iraq war is about but anyone can see it holds majority here (it did when Iraq invaded Kuwait after the US broke friendly relations with Iraq and decided to pimp Kuwaits oil instead). Not only is oil suppose to where thin in 100 years or so, but the high prices and high taxes on oil (further government revenue) are almost proof enough. Plus there is that little neocon plan to bring "peace" to the Middle East but I wonder if oil has anything to do with it?

-Prediction: US and Canada will eventually merge into NAU (the process is starting because Canada is selling all (except for one) of it many types of oil shares in Canada to the US. Canada wants to offshore oil drill by British Columbia (in 5 years) and the US wants to oil drill in Alaska (in which they would need oil pipelines through BC to reach California). This of course would bring upon complications, debates and backstabing relations (see US/Afghanistan oil pipeline deal with Taliban). The pressure will be too great for Canada as usual, and North Americas version of the EU will transpire. When Paul Martin (Canada's next PM, yes I do not need an election to assume results) gets a majority govn't this will definitely happen in the next 10 to 20 years.

-A draft will eventually transpire in the US, Bush needs it, Kerry says it may be part of his plans (he feels an extra 140,000 troops are needed (but how?), and since most of US population doens't even consider a third independant party (like Nader even though this guy is one smart cookie, saw him at a university presentation in Canada) member to lead their country because of a laughable vote Kerry or else situation.

[Paul]

Because Bush has done pretty well for the country on the inside...all the complaints are about his foreign policy. My life has not changed in any significant way since 9/11 and I think thats doing a good job.
And that's what it must be that anyone can still support Bush, "Hey, I'm still OK".

What has he done besides take away constituation rights and caused more debt than any pres on record? If Bush has done absolutely nothing about the 9/11, just kept on reading to the kids like he did that day, your life would still be unchanged. Would that still make him a good pres?

[chicubs]

I understand where you're coming from, but I do think this attitude is a source of American problems.

Basically it says "My self worth is identified by being American. If I were to be removed from America, I would be less." Which doesn't say much for strength of character.

It can also lead to a belief of superiority (which all groups try to install - such as religions, nations, and cults) that leads to believing others are inferior. And that can lead to a mentality that non-american life is less important. This mentality can be seen played out in America's foreign policies.

I think the rest of the world (which protested the Iraq war, for example) is more inclined to see America as far less than perfect or even moral as they are not indentured with this mentality.

All other nations need to get off their mighty high horse.
-Canada - hasnt meaningfully helped anyone with anything in a long time and has no affect on any foreign affairs
-France - Colonialism, cowardly,
-Britain - brutal colonialism and they have had a part in Iraq too, lets not forget...I wish we hadnt gone into Iraq, but now that we have I feel I must support our soldiers as I am eternally thankful for them
-Belgium - unbievable horrific slavery/murders/colonialism in the Congo
-Germany- nuff said (you shouldnt forget 2 world wars too soon....im half german, so I am not biased)
-Russia - Afghanistan, Checneya, Vietnam
-Irael - Palestine
-Palestine - Israel
-Afghanistan - harboring terrorists for years
-USA - Vietnam, Iraq, Hiroshima (even though I am thankful it ended WWII, it seems brutal by today's standards, however, wars were far different then, there were no "smart bombs" Everyone just bombed everything in sight.
-India - Kashmir
-Pakistan - Kashmir
-North Korea - South Korea abductions

[Mootang]

Dont call my countrymen mindless either...there is a reason why we are a super power and you guys are "america jr" - simpsons.
Ahhh when in Rome.

[chicubs]

And that's what it must be that anyone can still support Bush, "Hey, I'm still OK".

What has he done besides take away constituation rights and caused more debt than any pres on record? If Bush has done absolutely nothing about the 9/11, just kept on reading to the kids like he did that day, your life would still be unchanged. Would that still make him a good pres?

As far as I know I have freedom of speech, I can still afford things, and I feel safe to travel.

[Paul]

Thats bullshit Paul. I understand Canadians are generally a stand off country, but to say Bush is a mean spirited person is just stupid...I dont think he honestly started the war thinking "Im goignt to kill all those filthy a-rabs"....The afghan war was legit.
Guess we'll see won't we. If Bin Laden is captured before the election and paraded all over the news, would you believe my statement then?
Dont call my countrymen mindless either...there is a reason why we are a super power and you guys are "america jr" - simpsons.
What reason is that?

[chicubs]

What it means to be an American. A lot of our problems in this area stems from the fact/belief that America is a nation founded on an ideal. We are not just an accident of geography. To be an American is not just to be born within the geographical confines of the US but to subscribe to the ideals expressed in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. All American students repeat the Pledge of Allegiance each day. This and other propaganda events help setup the mind set that says if you don't agree with what the US is doing, you aren't a true American. We saw this in the Vietnam era and we're starting to see it now. In my mind someone that stands up and says that what my country and President is doing is wrong, out of true conviction, is more of an American than the man that marches behind that President in lock step merely because he is the President.

Vietnam was slightly different as it was far larger % that apposed the war...Iraq is about 50-50 (although starting to lean towards it was bad idea)

Ive thought about this a little more and I am sorry, I said, "I cant respect you...." however, i think people in the US do not realize how lucky they are to live in this beautiful country.

[chicubs]

Guess we'll see won't we. If Bin Laden is captured before the election and paraded all over the news, would you believe my statement then?

What reason is that?

Maybe...But Ill put 10000000000000000 bucks it wont happen right before election time.

The original (although, sadly not followed by many) american values: hard work, and determination...having millions in population and fighting off the super power Britain twice.

[Paul]

To say Canada is a stand-off country because it doesn't go around starting wars (legitimate or not), hey fine by me. Most moral people wouldn't be proud of their 'war machine' capabilities, but it seems to be quite a source of pride for some americans.

And if you look at the record, Canada has participated in all US conflicts expect Iraq. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan... we pull our weight, we just don't make war our priority.

[Mootang]

Vietnam was slightly different as it was far larger % that apposed the war...Iraq is about 50-50 (although starting to lean towards it was bad idea)

Ive thought about this a little more and I am sorry, I said, "I cant respect you...." however, i think people in the US do not realize how lucky they are to live in this beautiful country.Although that may have been true near the end of US operation in the late 60's, early 70's. Support for the war on terror... cough I mean communism was climbing and it was a major campaign issue for Kennedy in the early 60's who actually started to increase US involvement rapidly.

[chicubs]

To say Canada is a stand-off country because it doesn't go around starting wars (legitimate or not), hey fine by me. Most moral people wouldn't be proud of their 'war machine' capabilities, but it seems to be quite a source of pride for some americans.

And if you look at the record, Canada has participated in all US conflicts expect Iraq. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan... we pull our weight, we just don't make war our priority.

you didnt "pull you weight" exactly in those wars, but you do have a point. Ill admit, there are good and bad things involved with the "war machine"
1) Symbolizes that we created an economy at one time so strong we could create the worlds most powerful army.
2) Used to be considered the most "professional" army in the world and probably still is, considering its mainly the cia influence that caused the abuse (they ordered them, I know thats sounds stupid to take orders like that, but trust me, you carry out orders in the army, no q's asked_
3) We did need it at one point, it is not like its unneccessary....war will always be in civiliazation, sadly
4) Offers unbelievable protection/security (dont bring up 9/11, that was stupid airport's rules fault)
Bad:
1) Makes some hicks very military/violent/gun crazy
2) Gives bully impression even if we didnt go to war
3) Give president too much opportunity to do bad.
4) Gives almost a "need" to do something with it.

[Paul]

As far as I know I have freedom of speech, I can still afford things, and I feel safe to travel.
I agree, it's no Soviet Russia. But to really feel free, I'd prefer to have it so the government wasn't able to point a figure at you - at their sole discretion - and "disappear you". And that is what this president has been installing. He can point a finger at anyone he likes, call them a 'terrorist' and forbid them any access to due process or even have to charge them. Is that policy supportive of "american values"? Is there any reason an american would stand for such a president that brought about these things?

Remember, the indicator of a free society is how it treats its disidents, not its followers.

[chicubs]

Although that may have been true near the end of US operation in the late 60's, early 70's. Support for the war on terror... cough I mean communism was climbing and it was a major campaign issue for Kennedy in the early 60's who actually started to increase US involvement rapidly.

hmmm...you raise a good point, but I dont understand "the cough"....are you saying its the same exact thing as the war on terror and both wars are stupid...imho and almost 100% americans think afgah war - good....iraq war - 50-50

[chicubs]

I agree, it's no Soviet Russia. But to really feel free, I'd prefer to have it so the government wasn't able to point a figure at you - at their sole discretion - and "disappear you". And that is what this president has been installing. He can point a finger at anyone he likes, call them a 'terrorist' and forbid them any access to due process or even have to charge them. Is that policy supportive of "american values"? Is there any reason an american would stand for such a president that brought about these things?

Remember, the indicator of a free society is how it treats is disidents, not its followers.

well, they are not really american, but I do agree the prisonrs in guantanmo bay deserves more rights (although prisoners should NEVER have cable TV like the civilian prisnoers here do, its ridiculous to give them a perk a lot of Americans dont have)....about the few americans accused...kinda suspicious if you convert to islam, gather chemicals with formuals for bombs, go alqeda sites everyday, and have travel plans to go to afghanistan/iraq.....however, they still should have due process, you are right, but, at the same time, sometimes, honestly, I dont give a damn about due process. Like with the sniper, hes caught in the car with the rifle and such and yet he had a chance of getting away with it, due process is sometimes frightening.

"Remember, the indicator of a free society is how it treats is disidents, not its followers." lol, have to look up the word "disident"..ok got it.....I dont really know if thats an indicator...If you dont like the free society that has not done anything to you then i dont believe its the indicator...If the person is a foreigner, then you have a point, but my and p. bush's number one concern is this country, not what other countries think.

[Paul]

well, they are not really american, but I do agree the prisonrs in guantanmo bay deserves more rights (although prisoners should NEVER have cable TV like the civilian prisnoers here do, its ridiculous to give them a perk a lot of Americans dont have)
I wasn't referring to non-citizens, but regular joe Americans. Take that 'joe piddilio (sp) dirty bomb guy' - he's an American citizen and is basically a test by the government to see if they can pull this policy off. Luckily the courts forced some due-process on it, but the point had been made - the president thinks the rights granted by the consitution are a problem that he wanted to get rid of!

And regarding the treatment of people who are citizens or not, the US consitution only ever refers to "people" not "citizens". And morally, all people should have equal rights, if one believes in "human rights" and not "american rights". However, there will never be much concern for presidents to care how they treat non-citizens, as only citizens can vote.

[Mootang]

hmmm...you raise a good point, but I dont understand "the cough"....are you saying its the same exact thing as the war on terror and both wars are stupid...imho and almost 100% americans think afgah war - good....iraq war - 50-50
No I was just trying to come up with an "ism" to ligitimize cause for war, and I was being funny.

[Paul]

If you dont like the free society that has not done anything to you then i dont believe its the indicator...If the person is a foreigner, then you have a point, but my and p. bush's number one concern is this country, not what other countries think.
Well, I guess that's an attitude I just don't understand. If the government is harming others, but making you life fine, are you ok with that?
I think that is the fundamental different between bush supporters and bush haters. The haters feel for the hell caused by US actions outside its borders.

[Mootang]

Umm let me put it this way, initially Americans were close to 100% in support of defeating Communism (noble indeed), then the Vietnam "conflict" started and support became 50-50... 70-30... and so on... 10 years later what I'm saying, is give the "conflict" on terror some time and when drafting starts support will be less than 50-50. 2004 - 2001 = 3 years is not much (since Afghanistan).

[chicubs]

I wasn't referring to non-citizens, but regular joe Americans. Take that 'joe piddilio (sp) dirty bomb guy' - he's an American citizen and is basically a test by the government to see if they can pull this policy off. Luckily the courts forced some due-process on it, but the point had been made - the president thinks the rights granted by the consitution are a problem that he wanted to get rid of!

And regarding the treatment of people who are citizens or not, the US consitution only ever refers to "people" not "citizens". And morally, all people should have equal rights, if one believes in "human rights" and not "american rights". However, there will never be much concern for presidents to care how they treat non-citizens, as only citizens can vote.

yah, edited my post as you were typing....Is Joe Piddlio real? I feel stupid, but if he is real, could you link a story cause I dont know about it even though I keep up with the news.

Just like I said, I believe in due process; however, i care more about an american then ...lets say an iraqi. I can honestly say I dont really feel any extreme caringness (not a word, lol) about the abused iraqis...I dont think you do either, thats human nature.. You only are hurt when things/people around you are hurt/mistreated.

[Mootang]

Well, I guess that's an attitude I just don't understand. If the government is harming others, but making you life fine, are you ok with that?
I think that is the fundamental different between bush supporters and bush haters. The haters feel for the hell caused by US actions outside its borders.You a hater, player?

Are ya?

[chicubs]

Well, I guess that's an attitude I just don't understand. If the government is harming others, but making you life fine, are you ok with that?
I think that is the fundamental different between bush supporters and bush haters. The haters feel for the hell caused by US actions outside its borders.

But what americans feel, is that we are being threatened by certain people..."harming others" we have been "harmed" too you know, its not like we just blindy went into Afghanistan.

Lol, the haters dont actually "feel for the hell" ....they just use it for the campaign...

...speaking of Kerry vs Bush...I dont really like either of them, I wanted John McCain last year and I wanted Edwards this year.

[chicubs]

defeating Communism (noble indeed), is give the "conflict" on terror some time and when drafting starts support will be less than 50-50. 2004 - 2001 = 3 years is not much (since Afghanistan).

"noble indeed" - sarcasim?

-Drafting wont start, I guarentee it....No way does Bush gets congress's approval.

- "War on Terror" and "Iraqi War" are very different in the minds of many americans...support for Afghanistan is still very high.

[Paul]

You a hater, player?

Are ya?
Don't hate the playa, hate the game. Right?

[chicubs]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game. Right?

lol, you guys are so ghetto.

[Paul]

yah, edited my post as you were typing....Is Joe Piddlio real? I feel stupid, but if he is real, could you link a story cause I dont know about it even though I keep up with the news.

Just like I said, I believe in due process; however, i care more about an american then ...lets say an iraqi. I can honestly say I dont really feel any extreme caringness (not a word, lol) about the abused iraqis...I dont think you do either, thats human nature.. You only are hurt when things/people around you are hurt/mistreated.
Here's a so-so link: http://www.thesakeofargument.com/archives/000384.html
Google for more.

I'm not fretting to much about the prison abuse stuff. After all, it's war over there - what did the politicians think? Why is anyone shocked? It's ok to pump depleted uranium shells through homes, but not torment prisoners? Bush (the christian he is) should know that violence begets violence. No big story.

[Paul]

lol, you guys are so ghetto.
And thanks for breaking things up Mootang. I'm entranced in this thread because I've never been able to have much of a talk about politics with someone on the right, and in the mid-west 'red' states no less - not without coming to a fight (which may have been close here).

Due to the way this administration abhorred debates, it's no wonder that the right and left can't fathom each other. There is no public discourse on the subject, just talking heads and deaf people.

I feel the need to understand exactly why Bush is supported by more than himself, and maybe his wife.

[acozz]

Changing the subject a bit, can anyone see the war on terrorism actually continuing after Iraq? It seems to me that we've lost too many men to go to war again for awhile. I'm not talking about US intervention in suspected terrorist activities, I'm talking war on nations.

[chicubs]

Changing the subject a bit, can anyone see the war on terrorism actually continuing after Iraq? It seems to me that we've lost too many men to go to war again for awhile. I'm not talking about US intervention in suspected terrorist activities, I'm talking war on nations.

Why it might not count as "war on terror" the next US involved war will probably be North Korea...although that would be nuclear war, so it wont happen so....we havent not lost a substanial number of lives considering we are involved in two wars...we have been lucky so far....media just makes it seem like we have lost millions (every life is precious, however, but in war people die. Its envitable)

[Inthewoods]

Hi All,

I sense some real heat being generated here and I hope we don't end up starting our own little war (or go up in "flames"). That said, I have a couple thoughts.

First, I don't think Bush is hateful, not at all. Do I support him? HELL NO! Do I support what's going on in Iraq? HELL NO!! However, I really believe that Bush is not malevolent, merely very ignorant and misguided. He just doesn't get it. And that holds true for a whole lot of his policies. However, I do agree with some others here that Afghanistan was different than Iraq...totally. If you disagree, ok, but remember that this is rthe opinion of an American, and just that, an opinion. I's very easy to take a "holier than thou" attitude when one's government takes a different "side" in a particular issue to that which is percieved as "wrong". .........All of which leads me to my second point:


Second, I am first and foremost, a citizen of the world, but I also happen to be an American, and as such, I am part of America. When I read things like "America should be ashamed", I can only assume that somebody is missing that distinction, that America is NOT some evil entity, but rather a huge group of people, all with their own thoughts and opinions. So please do not tell me to be ashamed because you choose to disagree with my government's foreign policies. I disagree too but dammit I am PROUD to be an American!

[Mootang]

Changing the subject a bit, can anyone see the war on terrorism actually continuing after Iraq? It seems to me that we've lost too many men to go to war again for awhile. I'm not talking about US intervention in suspected terrorist activities, I'm talking war on nations.Yes conscript! The war on terror is good for you. We have always been fighting Eurasia and always will.

Anywhooose...

Yeah although Chicubs disagrees a draft is forseeable to me, it's the only way in my opinion (not agreeing just sayin').

Yes the US will eventually control the rest of the middle East, then after the Chinese surpasses the US for world power position WW3 will take place.

I myself am building a bunker in Moosejaw, i mean I not building one. Yes.

[acozz]

Why it might not count as "war on terror" the next US involved war will probably be North Korea...although that would be nuclear war, so it wont happen so....we havent not lost a substanial number of lives considering we are involved in two wars...we have been lucky so far....media just makes it seem like we have lost millions (every life is precious, however, but in war people die. Its envitable)

When I say we lost a lot of men, I mean in American terms. The same terms that say we lost a lot of men in Vietnam even though it was not really that many in comparison to the enemy.

[acozz]

Yes conscript! The war on terror is good for you. We have always been fighting Eurasia and always will.

Anywhooose...

Yeah although Chicubs disagrees a draft is forseeable to me, it's the only way in my opinion (not agreeing just sayin').

Yes the US will eventually control the rest of the middle East, then after the Chinese surpasses the US for world power position WW3 will take place.

I myself am building a bunker in Moosejaw.

You're overreacting. I think a draft would be political suicide right now. I don't think draft-age people care as much about this cause as the president thinks. Especially with such a shaky reasoning to be in Iraq, and reasonings that can only get shakier if we invade other nations.

[Mootang]

When I say we lost a lot of men, I mean in American terms. The same terms that say we lost a lot of men in Vietnam even though it was not really that many in comparison to the enemy.
Hell the US used Napalm, and nothing beats the smell of Napalm in the mornin'.

[chicubs]

I've never been able to have much of a talk about politics with someone on the right, and in the mid-west 'red' states no less - not without coming to a fight (which may have been close here).

I feel the need to understand exactly why Bush is supported by more than himself, and maybe his wife.

Me Stupid. Me dont understand "mid-west 'red' states...are you talking about me, being a midwestener?....

Bush is understood by more than himself because he is not that a bad a guy personality wise, he is like one of those traditional grampas everyone loves....He hasnt been that bad internally....not everyone is really supporting Bush. But republican/non liberals do not like the many democrats who devalue our soldiers effort...believe me, the soldiers are pissed at the people here who diss them consistantly....they are putting their lives on the line for millions of people, yet they get no respect from many....wow, went off-topic.

[Mootang]

You're overreacting. I think a draft would be political suicide right now. I don't think draft-age people care as much about this cause as the president thinks. Especially with such a shaky reasoning to be in Iraq, and reasonings that can only get shakier if we invade other nations.I'm talking about after the election and martial law teehee :)

I don't think political suicide is such a big deal in a 2 party system don't you think... I mean vietnams come and go... oh and Sadamns too.

[chicubs]

Mootang, I think we have a much larger military than you think.....btw, does anyone know china's opinion on any of the recent current events? Im curious.

[acozz]

Bush is understood by more than himself because he is not that a bad a guy personality wise, he is like one of those traditional grampas everyone loves....He hasnt been that bad internally....not everyone is really supporting Bush. But republican/non liberals do not like the many democrats who devalue our soldiers effort...believe me, the soldiers are pissed at the people here who diss them consistantly....they are putting their lives on the line for millions of people, yet they get no respect from many....wow, went off-topic.

Bush has support because the economy is improving. The bureaucrats love that. However, this recovery has largely been jobless which is why Kerry has such support. I think voters should stop being stupid and put the war aside; the economy is where one should make their decision on who to vote for. Kerry is planning on removing tax incentives on companies that outsource which could have a huge impact on the economy during his term and beyond (positively or negatively is unknown right now).

[Mootang]

Mootang, I think we have a much larger military than you think.....btw, does anyone know china's opinion on any of the recent current events? Im curious.
They are busy with Taiwan at the moment but they say if the US gets involved in their affairs then there will be hell to pay. So yeah things are lookin' bright.

[chicubs]

They are busy with Taiwan at the moment but they say if the US gets involved in their affairs then there will be hell to pay. So yeah things are lookin' bright.

lol, you are one sarcastic dude:P ...btw :chinese: :chinese: :chinese: is pretty stereotypical and Paul if you are the politically/moral correct man you seem to be, you should rename/delete.

[acozz]

They are busy with Taiwan at the moment but they say if the US gets involved in their affairs then there will be hell to pay. So yeah things are lookin' bright.

China and the US will never go to war fcr the same reason the cold war never turned to all out war.

[Mootang]

The economy bull**** is just pointless because banks like to keep inflation usually between 1 to 3 %.

If inflation goes below 1%, then the banks alter rates to make loans easier and instill growth in the economy, greater than 3 and the banks try to buy everything back.

I don't know why people think different parties matter in the issue of economy because they do what the banks tell them what to do (buy/sell).

[acozz]

The economy bull**** is just pointless because banks like to keep inflation usually between 1 to 3 %.

If inflation goes below 1%, then the banks alter rates to make loans easier and instill growth in the economy, greater than 3 and the banks try to buy everything back.

I don't know why people think different parties matter in the issue of economy because they do what the banks tell them what to do (buy/sell).

I was taught banks prefer deflation because then the money they get from loan payments/interest is worth more than when they loaned it out.

Also, not every American cares about foreign policy, but they all care about money, so economy is important.

[Mootang]

All I have to say is that Britain probably never thought their colonies would break free, go to war with them, and surpass them as the greatest world power.

[Mootang]

I was taught banks prefer deflation because then the money they get from loan payments/interest is worth more than when they loaned it out.

Also, not every American cares about foreign policy, but they all care about money, so economy is important.Yes, 1-3% incoroporates inflation and deflation. There is always both, can't deflate forever. Yin and Yang.

I didn't say people don't care about the economy, I'm saying the banks decide where it goes, not the party.

[GildedSplinter]

Thats bullshit Paul. I understand Canadians are generally a stand off country, but to say Bush is a mean spirited person is just stupid...I dont think he honestly started the war thinking "Im goignt to kill all those filthy a-rabs"....The afghan war was legit. If you dont see it that way, I would kick you a$$ if I saw you in teh street.

Dont call my countrymen mindless either...there is a reason why we are a super power and you guys are "america jr" - simpsons.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this forum exists for the mature exchange of ideas and perspectives. It's a pretty safe bet that nobody is gonna agree with everybody, and you must accept that you will be on both the giving AND receiving end of that, when you become a member of the community. As an American, I appreciate your patriotism, but your "think like me or I'm kickin' yer ass" mentality, is inappropriate, counterproductive, and frankly... un-American. Hitler had that kind of mentality... need I remind you that he's not remembered fondly :nervous:

(P.S.) your typing ability goes right to hell when your adrenaline gets pumpin'...

[jkrzok]

Dont call my countrymen mindless either...there is a reason why we are a super power and you guys are "america jr" - simpsons.


Yeah, we refuse to provide our citizens with universal health care and educate our inner city children. We borrow money our children will have to earn, all so we can build a military second to none. Can you say 500 Billion! Dollar! deficit! in one year!!! Just wait until our interest rates go up because the federal government is taking all of the available capital. Will you say life is so good when you get that whopper credit card bill or find you can't afford to buy a new home? But that will most likely be after the election so we won't be able to hold Bush II responsible.

I feel tremendous pride when I see bombs dropping in Iraq and my neighbor can't get the medicine she needs because her job doesn't offer health insurance. I feel proud to be an American when I comfort a friend whose son is going to Iraq with the army because there were no other jobs availble for him. There's no draft but there's also no choice for some of us.

We chose to be a super power by doing without what much of the industrialized world takes for granted, a social safety net that takes care of our poorest citizens, not just the Haliburtons of this world.

I figure there will be two big news stories in October. One of course is the capture of Bin Laden. The second will also be the release of the Stratigic Petroleum Reserve to lower gas prices.

[acozz]

Providing universal health care isn't going to help the deficit. It won't help anyone except the people who would mooch off it. Too many people need health care and there aren't enough hospitals/doctors. Universal health care would just screw doctors even more than they're getting screwed now. Getting seen at an emergency room is already a matter of hours, could you image that time increasing?

Edit: Also, as the demand increases, quality service will decrease.

[chicubs]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this forum exists for the mature exchange of ideas and perspectives. It's a pretty safe bet that nobody is gonna agree with everybody, and you must accept that you will be on both the giving AND receiving end of that, when you become a member of the community. As an American, I appreciate your patriotism, but your "think like me or I'm kickin' yer ass" mentality, is inappropriate, counterproductive, and frankly... un-American. Hitler had that kind of mentality... need I remind you that he's not remembered fondly :nervous:

(P.S.) your typing ability goes right to hell when your adrenaline gets pumpin'...

So, you wouldnt get Osama's ass if you saw him in the street because as an american you are open to his "different ideas"...hmmm, I do agree with you in some sense, but I am entitled to say that I think his idea is bullshit.

[GildedSplinter]

Providing universal health care isn't going to help the deficit. It won't help anyone except the people who would mooch off it. Too many people need health care and there aren't enough hospitals/doctors. Universal health care would just screw doctors even more than they're getting screwed now. Getting seen at an emergency room is already a matter of hours, could you image that time increasing?

Edit: Also, as the demand increases, quality service will decrease.
If we weren't spending 80 bajillion dollars per second on bombs & stuff, we could afford better/more health care!!!

[acozz]

If we weren't spending 80 bajillion dollars per second on bombs & stuff, we could afford better/more health care!!!

I think providing incentives to businesses who provide health insurance would be a better solution.

[chicubs]

Yeah, we refuse to provide our citizens with universal health care and educate our inner city children. We borrow money our children will have to earn, all so we can build a military second to none. Can you say 500 Billion! Dollar! deficit! in one year!!! Just wait until our interest rates go up because the federal government is taking all of the available capital. Will you say life is so good when you get that whopper credit card bill or find you can't afford to buy a new home? But that will most likely be after the election so we won't be able to hold Bush II responsible.

I feel tremendous pride when I see bombs dropping in Iraq and my neighbor can't get the medicine she needs because her job doesn't offer health insurance. I feel proud to be an American when I comfort a friend whose son is going to Iraq with the army because there were no other jobs availble for him. There's no draft but there's also no choice for some of us.

We chose to be a super power by doing without what much of the industrialized world takes for granted, a social safety net that takes care of our poorest citizens, not just the Haliburtons of this world.

I figure there will be two big news stories in October. One of course is the capture of Bin Laden. The second will also be the release of the Stratigic Petroleum Reserve to lower gas prices.

sorry, canda is NOT a super power in anyway...however, I was a little out of line in what I said, but the joke is very funny to americans even if it is unfair....people who join the military often do it because they feel it is their duty. EX: PAT TILLMAN!!...hmmm those millions of dollars left him no choice, huh?

Does anyone want to put money where there mouth is about the Bin Laden capture thing? ....Virtual money? :)

Health care does not solve everything....acozz is right, read his post. Ive also had health care before..I lived in the Netherlands and quite frankly every single doctor sucked. They misdiagnosed every single thing imaginable....people with cancer just went to the US for treatment.

Also, would you rather us bomb with $50 bombs without laser guided machinery...I think not...Death tolls right now in Iraq would be in the hundred thousands.

[GildedSplinter]

I think providing incentives to businesses who provide health insurance would be a better solution.
Perhaps a bit of both, wot... ;)

[jkrzok]

Providing universal health care isn't going to help the deficit. It won't help anyone except the people who would mooch off it. Too many people need health care and there aren't enough hospitals/doctors. Universal health care would just screw doctors even more than they're getting screwed now. Getting seen at an emergency room is already a matter of hours, could you image that time increasing? Edit: Also, as the demand increases, quality service will decrease.

So we should deny the working poor health care so that the quality of care for the rich can be maintained?

Part of the strain on our health care system comes from the uninsured waiting to treat their condition. When it becomes truly unbearable or life threatening they see a doctor and what could have been an easy and cheap fix becomes a much more costly one in both money and suffering. Part of the long wait at emergency rooms is due to the fact that this is the primary health care for the uninsured.

You don't think doctors get screwed by un (and under)insured patients inability to pay?

Since when is seeking medical care mooching?

[jkrzok]

All other nations need to get off their mighty high horse. -Canada - hasnt meaningfully helped anyone with anything in a long time and has no affect on any foreign affairs

I have to defend my good neighbors to the north. Canada fought the good fight against the Kaiser some 3 years before the US. Canada fought the evil that was Hitler two years before the US thought it was worth shedding blood for. In fact, the US waited for Hitler to declare war on us before we would declare war on Germany. Canada sacrificed a higher percentage of its youth in terms of war dead than the US did in WW2. Canada did, and does, carry its weight.

As for the modern age, Canada has usually been amongst the first to go into harm's way when the UN has called for peacekeepers. As a peacekeeper Canada is second to no one in the world. In terms of international respect and peacekeeping Canada is a super power.

[chicubs]

I have to defend my good neighbors to the north. Canada fought the good fight against the Kaiser some 3 years before the US. Canada fought the evil that was Hitler two years before the US thought it was worth shedding blood for. In fact, the US waited for Hitler to declare war on us before we would declare war on Germany. Canada sacrificed a higher percentage of its youth in terms of war dead than the US did in WW2. Canada did, and does, carry its weight.

As for the modern age, Canada has usually been amongst the first to go into harm's way when the UN has called for peacekeepers. As a peacekeeper Canada is second to no one in the world. In terms of international respect and peacekeeping Canada is a super power.

The US lost 295,000 lives in WWII...Canada lost 39,000...big difference I dont care what the percentages are. Do you think the Alllies would have won the war had the US not entered?...Also, the US has been the police cop of the world up until the Bush administration...pal-israeli conflict the US came thisclose to solving that problem.

ach, i think im getting a little caught up in the debate and making statements I dont really mean...I dont hate Canada and I am not some mindless blood thirsy hoosier hick...I just hate people acting like we are the evils of all evil and we should all burn in hell. We are not mean-spirited people...I know I dont wake up and say "man, I hope we dominated the world today" or "Man, I hope we killed some iraqi's overnight"...this is an unfortunate situation where Bush has no provided evidence for his claims, although this is mainly the fault of the CIA who gave him false information.

[jkrzok]

people who join the military often do it because they feel it is their duty. EX: PAT TILLMAN!!...hmmm those millions of dollars left him no choice, huh?

There are people that knowingly make that choice. But how many of our soldiers in Iraq truly made the choice to go to war there? I would imagine that most of them actually chose to get help in paying for college or get help in learning a skill, or actually get a job that put food on the table and paid for their health care needs. For many military service was the only way out of poverty and inner city neighborhoods that must have looked like war zones. Most of the recruitment ads I saw pre 9/11 were geared towards what the military could do for you in furthering you life and career. Very little mention was made of what sacrifice you might have to make.

[chicubs]

There are people that knowingly make that choice. But how many of our soldiers in Iraq truly made the choice to go to war there? I would imagine that most of them actually chose to get help in paying for college or get help in learning a skill, or actually get a job that put food on the table and paid for their health care needs. For many military service was the only way out of poverty and inner city neighborhoods that must have looked like war zones. Most of the recruitment ads I saw pre 9/11 were geared towards what the military could do for you in furthering you life and career. Very little mention was made of what sacrifice you might have to make.

First of all, when you enter the military you should know that and must people do....however war does not just pop up everyday. People dont expect it....I remember enlisted went way up after 9/11, people are willing to fight for our freedoms that you and I are so spolied to have.
Military is not the final step, there are jobs here...after all the US is the land of opportunity; however, some of those are jobs are terrrible but they would put money on the table; however, the military may seem more attractive. After all, theres adventure, travel, friendships, etc (you know the old military commericals where it made it out like you were going to Hawii to party)...People know the risk of entering the army and are willing to take the risk of joining to provide for their family..its choice, the american way, you dont have to enter the military to make 10,000 a year....Estimation since Pat Tillaman made 20,000 as a member of the elite rangers...so I think a regular soldier would be a lot less.

[jkrzok]

Do you think the Alllies would have won the war had the US not entered?

By the time the US started fighting in Europe the Soviets had turned the tide against the Nazis. It perhaps might have taken them longer, but the outcome seems certain. As for Japan it too would eventually lose as it spread itself too far too fast. China alone is far too large to occupy succesfully. Perhaps the Soviets would have recognized the threat after Germany's defeat.

What I'm hearing is people saying that the US is the indispensible nation; that without us and our military the world would go straight to hell. This is pure hubris. How much of the world's actions are based on what they see as the American threat?

Also, the US has been the police cop of the world up until the Bush administration

Some would say that we as policemen are awfully quick on the trigger. But I must say that the US military presence in Europe and Japan in the post war world did a lot to stabilize those regions.

this is an unfortunate situation where Bush has no provided evidence for his claims, although this is mainly the fault of the CIA who gave him false information.

As President he is responsible for his subordinates and their actions. He is the boss of the CIA. "The buck stops here."- Truman. Besides, weren't there any dissenting voices in the administration and elsewhere in the real world? It seems that Bush chose who to listen to.

[chicubs]

What I'm hearing is people saying that the US is the indispensible nation; that without us and our military the world would go straight to hell. This is pure hubris. How much of the world's actions are based on what they see as the American threat?


As President he is responsible for his subordinates and their actions. He is the boss of the CIA. "The buck stops here."- Truman. Besides, weren't there any dissenting voices in the administration and elsewhere in the real world? It seems that Bush chose who to listen to.


YES!!! We are agreeing....thats Bush's problem. Hes not evil, hes just stupid and ignorant; however, he should be able to trust the head of the CIA....I dont really like the CIA. They are basically the american KGB in that they do a lot of cruel things we are just finding out about.

The US is not needed right now, but what if China would go Hitler (/Saddam in 1st war) on the world and try to take over everything? You think North Korea would help? Of course not....That leaves the US as the only substantial military power that could stand up to China....Im just using China as an example, i do not believe they are planning to take over the world :beer: .....the Nazi's built the most powerful army in the world without anyone knowing, it could happen again.

[jkrzok]

The US is not needed right now, but what if China would go Hitler (/Saddam in 1st war) on the world and try to take over everything? You think North Korea would help? Of course not....That leaves the US as the only substantial military power that could stand up to China....Im just using China as an example, i do not believe they are planning to take over the world .....the Nazi's built the most powerful army in the world without anyone knowing, it could happen again.

Prior to Hitler and Hirohito the US had little or no military power to speak of. But when we needed it we created it. We could do so again. I think that many of our problems stem from hubris and keeping a large military around dosn't help. If you have a tool you're going to use it, even though there may be other tools better suited for the job.

How much of the trouble the rest of the world is causing us is due in fact to the size of our military and the threat it and other forms of American aggression (economic and cultural) pose to them?

the Nazi's built the most powerful army in the world without anyone knowing, it could happen again.

People knew about it. Heck, much of Nazi Germany's military potential was trained inside the Soviet Union. World leaders of the time just hoped Hitler would either go away or could be used for their own purposes. Some did try to warn the world. (Churchill?)

As for building a large army under cover, that doesn't seem too likely given our satellite espionage capabilities. Where those capabilities fail is where our greatest threat now lies with, terrorism. Was it some 28 people that were responsible for 9-11? No satellite could see that coming.

The US military is also woefully prepared to fight that kind of war. We built a military designed to fight a large scale conflict against an easily identifiable enemy, somewhere else in the world. We're are now confronted with a threat that is the exact opposite of that. Another negative of this war in Iraq is that it is stalling any efforts we could make to retool our military to face this new threat. Al Quada will not be defeated by F/18s, aircraft carriers and cruise missiles. We need more special forces and more of an effort to make people not hate us so much.

[jkrzok]

people are willing to fight for our freedoms that you and I are so spolied to have

People are willing to fight for freedom. But what freedoms are we defending in Iraq? I'm saying that most everyone in the military didn't sign on for this kind of war, one with no discernable justification worthy of dying for. Yes people on some level knew what the price the military would ask of them, but they may not see this war as worth that price.

[Todd The Kiwi]

nothing beats the smell of Napalm in the mornin'.

Dismember - let the napalm rain , right? :skull:

[hedge]

Damn, this thread has come from nowhere!
Well, seeming Australia's much loved and respected prime minister (HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!) and his government are deciding to do whatever america would have them do, we are well and truly tied with the US, at least until the next election... (and i can't see much changing even if we get a new pm.)
We need their support if ever our northern neighbours were to decide that aus looked like a nice place to settle, (and of course their trade), but would we get it if it were not in America's best interests, economically, i begin to wonder.

I can understand the reasoning behind Afghanistan, take out the threat at the source, yet this started the 'War on Terror', and quite frankly, it is an unwinnable war. By waging war on every single country that looks like it has the potential to threaten the US, they are only making more enemies, and a combined middle east, whilst not having the military capabilities of the west, is still a HUGE threat. And if the US keep attacking, there will be a much greater feeling of hatred amongst that portion of the world. Hatred brings unity...

A country should stand up for their ideals, but that does not involve forcing those ideals on others. If a threat is posed on your ideals, then you should do all within your power to protect those ideals, and your believers. And so Afghanistan is largely supported, yet Iraq is not, as we now find out that it posed no threat in the form of weapons of mass destruction, and the government was such a mess, no greater combined effort could ever have come from that government.

Bush may have been misinformed, but it is his job to make decisions, and these decisions must be made with information from MULTIPLE sources, not an absolute trust in one agency, that has been known to provide bullshit. And if you sacrifice your ideals at home to actively 'protect' them elsewhere, you do not protect them at all. Imagine what could be done with the money put into iraq, sure it is not such a simple thing to provide your people with a good standard of living, but much could be done with the money burnt on a military machine proving to be ineffective against the real threat posed, terrorism.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Well, if there's one thing sure about Iraq, then it's the fact that when and if the coalition troops are withdrawn too early, there will be a civil war and that is not going to help anybody, especially Iraq's economy. I'm glad that The Netherlands is actively participating in keeping our forces in place eventhough there is a chance that some soldiers will not survive some of the chaotic attacks made by Iraqi guerrilla warriors.

The question is, however, should America back off as soon as power is handed over to the Iraqi government? IMO American troops should not leave the country until all peace has been restored and the Iraqi police can take care of themselves. And by the looks of it, peace is still far from becoming a reality.

Then there is the question of what role the UN should have in this conflict. At first Bush did not want anything to do with the involvement of the UN, and now he's more that eager to get the UN involved. This proves how short-sighted Bush Jr. really is.

[GildedSplinter]

Damn, this thread has come from nowhere!
Well, seeming Australia's much loved and respected prime minister (HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!) and his government are deciding to do whatever america would have them do, we are well and truly tied with the US, at least until the next election... (and i can't see much changing even if we get a new pm.)
We need their support if ever our northern neighbours were to decide that aus looked like a nice place to settle, (and of course their trade), but would we get it if it were not in America's best interests, economically, i begin to wonder.

I can understand the reasoning behind Afghanistan, take out the threat at the source, yet this started the 'War on Terror', and quite frankly, it is an unwinnable war. By waging war on every single country that looks like it has the potential to threaten the US, they are only making more enemies, and a combined middle east, whilst not having the military capabilities of the west, is still a HUGE threat. And if the US keep attacking, there will be a much greater feeling of hatred amongst that portion of the world. Hatred brings unity...

A country should stand up for their ideals, but that does not involve forcing those ideals on others. If a threat is posed on your ideals, then you should do all within your power to protect those ideals, and your believers. And so Afghanistan is largely supported, yet Iraq is not, as we now find out that it posed no threat in the form of weapons of mass destruction, and the government was such a mess, no greater combined effort could ever have come from that government.

Bush may have been misinformed, but it is his job to make decisions, and these decisions must be made with information from MULTIPLE sources, not an absolute trust in one agency, that has been known to provide bullshit. And if you sacrifice your ideals at home to actively 'protect' them elsewhere, you do not protect them at all. Imagine what could be done with the money put into iraq, sure it is not such a simple thing to provide your people with a good standard of living, but much could be done with the money burnt on a military machine proving to be ineffective against the real threat posed, terrorism.

:knocked-o you said a mouthfull... :knocked-o

[Roj]

-Canada - hasnt meaningfully helped anyone with anything in a long time and has no affect on any foreign affairsCanada:

- sends *peacekeeping* forces across the globe to help maintain order without meddling in other people's affairs where they have no business
- is not a *global bully*
- does not *arrogantly* assume that their ideals are the right ones for everyone and then impose them via "might makes right"
- does not put up puppet governments to pander to their own political and economic interests and then wail when said foreign policy comes back to bite them in the ass (9/11)
- does not have to fear when their citizens wear their flag across the globe since it doesn't become a bull's eye
- has *real* freedom of expression / multiculturalism and protects the rights and privacy of its citizens without enforcing a police state on them out of paranoia brought on by reprisals for the aforementioned foreign policies.

Get the picture yet, chilibean?

Oh and before I forget:

We got your citizens out of Iran when the puppet government your country put in place collapsed and backfired on them.

We also let your commercial airliners land here on 9/11 - their other option was ditching off Newfoundland or Vancouver.

You wanna wave the self-righteous flag?

Hey, it's your flag that gets burned, not ours (for the record, I'm *not* in favor of burning *any* flag but it *is* a symptom to take note of).

[chicubs]

Canada

- has *real* freedom of expression / multiculturalism

Get the picture yet, chilibean?

You wanna wave the self-righteous flag?


"Chilibean"...Im hurt...I dont know what to do, im speechless. :cheeky:

So the US has no diversity...hmm, what an idiotic statement. You have not been over here in while obviously...

Yah I will wave the damn flag because of the iraq situation everyone in every damn coutnry is sterotyping americans as dumbasses who just want to blow up the entire world.

[Roj]

"Chilibean"...Im hurt...I dont know what to do, im speechless. :cheeky:

So the US has no diversity...hmm, what an idiotic statement. You have not been over here in while obviously...Hey, I've lived there - I've seen the US version of "diversity". Basically it means that everyone conforms to essentially a single cultural mindset with the oft spoken phrase of "if you don't like it, get out". That isn't a recent development either - that was around back in the seventies (the last time I lived there).

The rather observable international behavior of the country undeniably demonstrates how that that tenet overflows quite readily into how the US treats the rest of the world.

It sort of reminds me of an old humourous quote:

"Hey! You! Get off my planet!"

We're a wee bit more liberal-minded up here, thanks.

[chicubs]

Hey, I've lived there - I've seen the US version of "diversity". Basically it means that everyone conforms to essentially a single cultural mindset with the oft spoken phrase of "if you don't like it, get out".

The rather observable international behavior of the country undeniably demonstrates how that that tenet overflows quite readily into how the US treats the rest of the world.

We're a wee bit more liberal-minded up here, thanks.

Thats not true at all roj...The US treats its own citizens very well, and thats the reason why there is a large number of immigrants...You are making very stupid stereotypes....We still have freedom of speech, and all other freedoms the Constituion gave us....The reason why people here do not care as much about what is happening in the world is because
1) New York City, LA, Chicago, Houston have larger populations then entire European nations...people are more concerned about local news because of that.
2) US is a massive nation and the east coast is very different from the west coast and midwest is even different all together....Many different cultures within one area presents issues within country, so distracted by these issues and not by world affairs
3) Many people never travel outside the US as it is so big and has many diverse vacation locations
4) Many US people are ignorant just like there are ignorant people in Canada...although, I do wish more Americans would watch the news, even if it was CNN (which is VERY liberal, btw)

[Roj]

Thats not true at all roj...The US treats its own citizens very well, and thats the reason why there is a large number of immigrants...The DMCA, Patriot Act and Department of Homeland Security translate to "very well" do they?

Methinks I'll pass...

I look at your legislature - not your citizens. I'm well aware that there are many wonderful folks living in the US - I have many friends living there. I am sorry that they have to live under such a government.

Oh, and CNN is a wonderful propaganda machine. Personally, if I want to find out what's going on "out there", they'd be the last folks I'd have a look at. After all, they had the most highly rated and well orchestrated show in TV history - it was called "The Gulf War".

And while we're on the subject of wars:

Vietnam:

The US had no business being there and sadly got it's ass kicked to boot. A lot of good kids died over there to no good end.

Iran:

As I pointed out, a puppet government that backfired - unfortunately it has repurcussions to this day.

WWII:

A war that the US was quite content to stay out of until Japan attacked - had they not done so, the US would never have entered the war and Britain would have stood alone and very likely fallen. in short, it's fortunate that the US did enter the war but it didn't happen out of altruism.

Hiroshima was regrettable - but IMO necessary. Without it, the war would have dragged on because the word "surrender" was not in Japanese vocabulary and many more would have needlessly died.

[Qaz]

-France - Colonialism, cowardly,
-Britain - brutal colonialism and they have had a part in Iraq too, lets not forget...I wish we hadnt gone into Iraq, but now that we have I feel I must support our soldiers as I am eternally thankful for them
-Belgium - unbievable horrific slavery/murders/colonialism in the Congo
-USA - Vietnam, Iraq, Hiroshima (even though I am thankful it ended WWII, it seems brutal by today's standards, however, wars were far different then, there were no "smart bombs" Everyone just bombed everything in sight.
without colonialism (or is that imperialism :puzzled: ) America would never have came to be. just something to keep in mind, not that this is the actual issue right now.

And about Hiroshima bombing. The war was about to end anyway, all it did was that it ended a little faster. But IMO it really wasn't worth it. (Is it ever?)

just like I said, I believe in due process; however, i care more about an american then ...lets say an iraqi. I can honestly say I dont really feel any extreme caringness (not a word, lol) about the abused iraqis...I dont think you do either, thats human nature.. You only are hurt when things/people around you are hurt/mistreated
Based on this I shouldn't care about 9/11 or any other terrorist act either. But for some odd reason I do. Not on personal level, but still...

[chicubs]

without colonialism (or is that imperialism :puzzled: ) America would never have came to be. just something to keep in mind, not that this is the actual issue right now.

And about Hiroshima bombing. The war was about to end anyway, all it did was that it ended a little faster. But IMO it really wasn't worth it. (Is it ever?)


Based on this I shouldn't care about 9/11 or any other terrorist act either. But for some odd reason I do. Not on personal level, but still...

From an American point of you it was worth it, because "experts" claim the US would have had to invade japan (an island) which would have cost maybe 500,000 US lives....so from the US, it was worth it, even though it seems very selfish now......Qaz, you are right about colonialism, but the european colonialism was worse --especially the Belgians.

I never said I ddint care about the iraqis...I said I cared MORE about the US people.

[chicubs]

The DMCA, Patriot Act and Department of Homeland Security translate to "very well" do they?

Methinks I'll pass...

I look at your legislature - not your citizens. I'm well aware that there are many wonderful folks living in the US - I have many friends living there. I am sorry that they have to live under such a government.

Oh, and CNN is a wonderful propaganda machine. Personally, if I want to find out what's going on "out there", they'd be the last folks I'd have a look at. After all, they had the most highly rated and well orchestrated show in TV history - it was called "The Gulf War".

Like I said on page....2 or 3. My life has not gotten any worse and neither has anyone I know, so "the DMCA, Patriot Act, and Department of Homeland Security" havent hurt me and will never...these acts have both been bad and good....due process being elimated occasionally is bad; however, getting the terrorist from within = good.

[Roj]

From an American point of you it was worth it, because "experts" claim the US would have had to invade japan (an island) which would have cost maybe 500,000 US lives....
If you look at the revision of my earlier post, you'll see I agree with you on this point. We were typing simultaneously.

[Qaz]

From an American point of you it was worth it, because "experts" claim the US would have had to invade japan (an island) which would have cost maybe 500,000 US lives....so from the US, it was worth it, even though it seems very selfish now......Qaz, you are right about colonialism, but the european colonialism was worse --especially the Belgians.
Am I right if I guess that these experts were americans? Because this isn't what they thought us in school. Anyway, this is a lot of ifs and thens (like most cases in history) so we can safely leave the matter behind, right?

The european colonialism was worse than whose? My point wasn't about who modern day colonialism, but that without the european colonialism back then, there wouldn't be America we know today. And don't ask what I'm trying to prove with this, I don't that even myself :cheeky:

[chicubs]

T
Oh, and CNN is a wonderful propaganda machine. Personally, if I want to find out what's going on "out there", they'd be the last folks I'd have a look at. After all, they had the most highly rated and well orchestrated show in TV history - it was called "The Gulf War".
True, but they do post some facts occasionally...Any news would be good for a US person...I dont buy that theory of The Gulf War. It just was an easy victory because well you have maybe the most powerful military in the US and Britain who are also strong along with many other nations....Not hard to defeat an Iraqi nation that is not fully commited to their leader....

[Roj]

Like I said on page....2 or 3. My life has not gotten any worse and neither has anyone I know, so "the DMCA, Patriot Act, and Department of Homeland Security" havent hurt me and will never...these acts have both been bad and good....due process being elimated occasionally is bad; however, getting the terrorist from within = good.
Very nice rationalization and I the brainwashing has succeeded.

Suffice it to say that we were intelligent enough to not pass a DMCA (despite pressure from Due South), have not implemented such a draconian Gestapo, er, "Department of Homeland Security" and have a version of the Patriot Act that even as we speak is under debate as it infringes upon the rights of Canadians.

Have a look at our Privacy Act and Charter Of Rights And Freedoms some time - you might learn a thing or two. You might even remember that your Declaration of Independence starts with the words "we the people" instead of "we the government".

[chicubs]

Am I right if I guess that these experts were americans? Because this isn't what they thought us in school. Anyway, this is a lot of ifs and thens (like most cases in history) so we can safely leave the matter behind, right?

The european colonialism was worse than whose? My point wasn't about who modern day colonialism, but that without the european colonialism back then, there wouldn't be America we know today. And don't ask what I'm trying to prove with this, I don't that even myself :cheeky:

Roj agrees with me, so apparently its not just pulled out of a "dumb" american's ass...Its what I was taught while I was in the Netherlands, so I think there is truth to it...Roj made a good point: Japanese did not believe in surrendering....it would "dishonor" their family.

[Roj]

True, but they do post some facts occasionally...Any news would be good for a US person...I dont buy that theory of The Gulf War. It just was an easy victory because well you have maybe the most powerful military in the US and Britain who are also strong along with many other nations....Not hard to defeat an Iraqi nation that is not fully commited to their leader....
You don't see the wonderful coincidences of the timing, the strategic placement of the camera crews, etc? The stories that came out from people actually there with private laptops who were posting whenever they could were quite different on occasion.

It was truly wonderful PR job - the White House PR Staff can be very proud. Pity they slipped up with the whole "weapons of mass destruction" gimmick

[chicubs]

Very nice rationalization and I the brainwashing has succeeded.

Suffice it to say that we were intelligent enough to not pass a DMCA (despite pressure from Due South), have not implemented such a draconian Gestapo, er, "Department of Homeland Security" and have a version of the Patriot Act that even as we speak is under debate as it infringes upon the rights of Canadians.

Have a look at our Privacy Act and Charter Of Rights And Freedoms some time - you might learn a thing or two. You might even remember that your Declaration of Independence starts with the words "we the people" instead of "we the government".

ARGH!! ARGH! ME ZOMBIE!! ME HAVE NO BRAIN!!! ME WHAT BRAINS!!!

If canada has all the answers what do you suppose we do about interior terrorism....which does exsist despite your theories....just sit around and take craps while waiting for the sequel.

come on...consipiracy theories are just plain stupid....Comparing the Gestapo is just plain ludacris, you have no idea....

[chicubs]

You don't see the wonderful coincidences of the timing, the strategic placement of the camera crews, etc? The stories that came out from people actually there with private laptops who were posting whenever they could were quite different on occasion.

It was truly wonderful PR job - the White House PR Staff can be very proud. Pity they slipped up with the whole "weapons of mass destruction" gimmick

source?

[Roj]

Roj agrees with me, so apparently its not just pulled out of a "dumb" american's ass...Its what I was taught while I was in the Netherlands, so I think there is truth to it...Roj made a good point: Japanese did not believe in surrendering....it would "dishonor" their family.They were quite prepared to fight to the last man, woman and child - which is exactly what was happening. As an example, the remaining fighter squadrons were sending kids out to fight - untrained kids. This information was documented after the war by surviving veteran Japanese pilots - the few who were left (Saburo Sakai being one of them - he wrote a book).

It was sinful (and I'm not an overly religious person but sending a child out to die for a lost cause in the name of pride fits my definition of "sin").

[Roj]

source?
Usenet.

The archives may still be online.

[chicubs]

Usenet.

The archives may still be online.

no offense, but why is this source more trusting then anything else...The Gulf War conspiracy theories are not even common among most non-USers.

[Roj]

If canada has all the answers what do you suppose we do about interior terrorism....which does exsist despite your theories....just sit around and take craps while waiting for the sequel.

come on...consipiracy theories are just plain stupid....Comparing the Gestapo is just plain ludacris, you have no idea....
We *don't* have all the answers, but then again we didn't back ourselves into this corner with invasive foreign policies over a twenty year period, did we.

I'm not saying terrorism doesn't exist - it's here and has been around for a long time. I'm just saying that the government is using it as an excuse to exert further control over citizens.

As to the Gestapo comment being ludicrous, what do you call the ability to imprison someone indefinitely on simple suspicion?

Read your history and remember Santayana.

[Roj]

no offense, but why is this source more trusting then anything else...The Gulf War conspiracy theories are not even common among most non-USers.Let me ask oyu this:

Do you honestly think that CNN would be allowed to report serious US "difficulties" without your State Department stepping in "to prevent US citizens form being alarmed"? Have a look at the injunctions being put in place against viewing the Geneva Convention violations against the Iraqui soldiers. After all, "they would provoke reprisals against US citizens and servicemen".

My point is that there is little in the way of unfuiltered and unbiased reporting in the media, especially US media.

I'd sooner believe Israeli reports or reports form people on the scene unfettered by censorship than CNN. In the age of the Internet it's kind of hard to shut folks up - but wait, the FBI want the ability to do that too (they publicly asked for it).

No "Grassy Knoll" theories here - just observation of current trends.

[chicubs]

We *don't* have all the answers, but then again we didn't back ourselves into this corner with invasive foreign policies over a twenty year period, did we.

I'm not saying terrorism doesn't exist - it's here and has been around for a long time. I'm just saying that the government is using it as an excuse to exert further control over citizens.

As to the Gestapo comment being ludicrous, what do you call the ability to imprison someone indefinitely on simple suspicion?

Read your history and remember Santayana.

because the Gestapo were taking out an entire group of people based on religion....now, you are probably going to say the US is trying to take down is Islam which is utter bs.

[chicubs]

Let me ask oyu this:

Do you honestly think that CNN would be allowed to report serious US "difficulties" without your State Department stepping in "to prevent US citizens form being alarmed"? Have a look at the injunctions being put in place against viewing the Geneva Convention violations against the Iraqui soldiers. After all, "they would provoke reprisals against US citizens and servicemen".

My point is that there is little in the way of unfuiltered and unbiased reporting in the media, especially US media.

I'd sooner believe Israeli reports or reports form people on the scene unfettered by censorship than CNN. In the age of the Internet it's kind of hard to shut folks up - but wait, the FBI want the ability to do that too.


Lol, like Paul said, its war and its not surprising abuse happens...We dont see all the stuff Iraqis do their prisnors..lets not forget the British were also responsible for the abuse....Why do you need to see more pictures?....Do you want to watch Nicholas Berg's head being cut off?

[Roj]

because the Gestapo were taking out an entire group of people based on religion....now, you are probably going to say the US is trying to take down is Islam which is utter bs.The Holocaust had nothing to do with religion - it had everything to do with finding a political scapegoat, a target for people to focus on if you will.

Much as the so-called Iraqui conflict is today (Lord knows that no one can find evidence of those "weapons of mass destruction" and traces from radioactive isotopes aren't something that can just be easily swept under the carpet like dust bunnies).

Where does ANY analysis of the Holocaust mention religion as a solely motivating force? The Jews are a people whose religion happens to coincide with their national identity - that doesn't mean that their persecution had much to do with who they did or did not believe in spiritually.

Distribution of wealth and a unifying political target - those are much more plausible reasons. Let's leave religion out of it (that's one subject I *never* touch).

[Roj]

Lol, like Paul said, its war and its not surprising abuse happens...We dont see all the stuff Iraqis do their prisnors..lets not forget the British were also responsible for the abuse....Why do you need to see more pictures?....Do you want to watch Nicholas Berg's head being cut off?I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it isn't utterly reprehensible - if you want further graphic examples of that, have a look at the Crusades (those had little to do with religion too, as an aside).

That's not the point I'm conveying.

I am saying that governments will / do step in to prevent things like that from becoming a partisan embarassment. We're staying strictly within the realm of politicians and their manipulation of the public in order to save their own asses.

I'm also saying that this isn't limited to the Bush government although they are the latest incarnation thereof.

I just wonder how gullible the American people will continue to be in the face of dwindling personal rights.

November will tell, no?

[chicubs]

November will tell, no?

I have a feeling more peoplle outside the US will be interested in the election than the people on the inside....Bush will probably win because John Kerry isnt exactly beloved...Edwards or McCain should be prez,imho.

[Roj]

I have a feeling more peoplle outside the US will be interested in the election than the people on the inside....Bush will probably win because John Kerry isnt exactly beloved...Edwards or McCain should be prez,imho.I think you're faced with the same dilemma that we are - neither candidate in our upcoming election is any "morning glory", so to speak.

In our case I think it will boil down to "better the evil you know".

What can you do - putzs abound everywhere. :)

[chicubs]

I think you're faced with the same dilemma that we are - neither candidate in our upcoming election is any "morning glory", so to speak.

In our case I think it will boil down to "better the evil you know".

What can you do - putzs abound everywhere. :)

What I really dont like is that you have to be a multi millionair to run for president...well, not officially, but to compaign you have to have an extra 20mil lieing around. You only get the candidates from one social class.

[Roj]

What I really dont like is that you have to be a multi millionair to run for president...well, not officially, but to compaign you have to have an extra 20mil lieing around. You only get the candidates from one social class.
That's pretty universal - it's always is a caution to me how many politicians are lawyers.

I have a healthy distrust of that profession...

[GildedSplinter]

That's pretty universal - it's always is a caution to me how many politicians are lawyers.

I have a healthy distrust of that profession...

This has gone WAY too far, WAY too fast. QUICK... Somebody start a thread about religion so we can destroy this community alltogether :grimreape

[chicubs]

lol, this made the front page of cnn.com

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/22/bush.fall/index.html

[Roj]

This has gone WAY too far, WAY too fast. QUICK... Somebody start a thread about religion so we can destroy this community alltogether :grimreape
LOL

You take things FAR too seriously, mon. The ChiMon and I had a spirited discussion but that doesn't mean that I hold any rancor towards him and I seriously doubt that he has any towards me.

Take it cool...

[Roj]

lol, this made the front page of cnn.com

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/22/bush.fall/index.html
I have only one word:

ouch!

[GildedSplinter]

LOL

You take things FAR too seriously, mon. The ChiMon and I had a spirited discussion but that doesn't mean that I hold any rancor towards him and I seriously doubt that he has any towards me.

Take it cool...

There's been more than once where i believe he would've come out of his chair at you if you would have been in the same room...

[Roj]

There's been more than once where i believe he would've come out of his chair at you if you would have been in the same room......and all he would have found in front of him was air. :)

I'm a reasonable worsmith and a somewhat experienced debater and the number one rule of the game is never lose your cool or get too emotionally involved if you can help it. The first one to do so is immediately at a self-imposed disadvantage.

[Qaz]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1222853,00.html

Why don't I like the sound of this...

It's also starting to look more and more that prisoner abuses in Iraq were well known among high rank officers too. Coouple of articles:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1222348,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CE3E5873-6B9B-4F02-82FE-63BBBD4F713D.htm

[Todd The Kiwi]

i thought chicubs was a chick ?
do correct me if i'm wrong though... :skull:

[Roj]

i thought chicubs was a chick ?
Never noticed... :)

[hedge]

Hiroshima was regrettable - but IMO necessary. Without it, the war would have dragged on because the word "surrender" was not in Japanese vocabulary and many more would have needlessly died.
So why two bombs, ya can't try and tell me they wouldn't have surrendered after the first one!!
/me thinks some more testing was required...

[Roj]

It is a matter of historical record that Japan was not going to surrender after the first bomb. the second on brought the point home that the fight was hopeless.

[chicubs]

How the hell did I become a chick?...Now, I WILL get out of my chair and kick Todd's ass! :evil: :evil:

BTW, I have no bad feelings towards Roj. Yes, it was a heated debate and I would probably be yelling at him...the only person I might have hit was Paul (dont ban me) because of he said the afghan war was wrong.

Hedge, they would NOT surrender....thats the way their society was....Suicide was more honorable than surrendering.

[Todd The Kiwi]

Grrr

sorry man , but i thought you were a chick :skull:
you guys should give this thread a rest it's starting to suck...

[chicubs]

sorry man , but i thought you were a chick :skull:
you guys should give this thread a rest it's starting to suck...

just curious, why?

[Todd The Kiwi]

just curious, why?

why does this thread suck? :skull:
or why do/did i think you were a female? :cross-eye

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I'm not sure this thread sucks. It sure is (or was) an interesting debate although the topic was Iraq i believe. So why dont we discuss what should happen after the USA handed over power to the Iraqi govenment? Begin June if i recall correctly. Should America withdraw its soldiers? Should every coutry involved do the same if thats what America will do?

[chicubs]

why does this thread suck? :skull:
or why do/did i think you were a female? :cross-eye

Why did you think I was a female?

[Qaz]

I'm not sure this thread sucks. It sure is (or was) an interesting debate although the topic was Iraq i believe. So why dont we discuss what should happen after the USA handed over power to the Iraqi govenment? Begin June if i recall correctly. Should America withdraw its soldiers? Should every coutry involved do the same if thats what America will do?
Yeah, you're right, this has gone waaay off-topic. But so, back to the topic. End of the June is the date actually. To me that seems utterly soon, taking what the situation is there right now. There comes stories on daily bases about clashes between coalition forces and guerrila forces. Civil war seems the most likely what's going to happen after the coalition forces leave. Wasn't some minister there killed just last week?

Anyone knows how many coalition soldiers there is now?The Iraqis themselves can maintain army of 80000 men after coalition forces leave. Is that more or less compared to current numbers?

[rorythedog]

I've been following this thread all the way and it's been very interesting. The US government is threatening the lives of me, my family & you're families. We are all at risk now.. My vacation options are being whittled down, one by one.

I appreciate the other comments from US citizens but, I wonder , will the American public ever get up off it's fat, lazy, self -centred ass and start to take responsibility for what it's government is doing to this planet? Any general world consensus is ALWAYS tempered with opt-outs or vetos. Guess who?

You can blame Bush all you want, but I believe he's only a puppet. Step forward Dick Cheney, Condaleeza Rice (the politician, not the supertanker-there's a clue there), Donald DUCK (sorry, Rumsfeld) and, I think his name is Richard Perle (scary looking). This is a Cabal.

You might wonder how much money do these people need? But it's not about the money any more. It's about covering up the last corrupt deal, with another corrupt deal. It's piling up. It has been for at least forty years.

Before any US citizens start flaming my anti-Americanism let me tell you. As a kid and still now, I have a poster on my bedroom wall. Two actually.They are the Constitution of the United States of America, and the other is the Declaration of Arbroath. The Constitution is beautiful. When will you all take it back. Listen to what it says and compare this with the actions of your government. The ball is in your court.

BTW. All of the above can just as easily be directed at the UK, and if that was the topic, stand back.

[chicubs]

I appreciate the other comments from US citizens but, I wonder , will the American public ever get up off it's fat, lazy, self -centred ass and start to take responsibility for what it's government is doing to this planet? Any general world consensus is ALWAYS tempered with opt-outs or vetos. Guess who?


Lol, you think its just so easy for us to complain and change the way the gov runs...this isnt freakin Africa where you can coup whenever you feel like it...Right now, people here and else where will have to "suffer" till Bush is out of government which may be soon...Protests have not changed this country since vietnam and that was a far larger % of people who cared and it was not just about what we were doing in vietnam was wrong. It was also because everyone was getting drafted and then 18 years olds wre comin home in bodybags....this is not like that from the american view....

Why dont prominent countries like Canada, Russia, Ireland, Scottland, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, France, Indian, Pakistan, China, Austrailia, South Africa, Egypt, Turkey put any pressure on the US...It is obvious that the iraq war is not going to change from within, but I believe that if there is enough true anger in the world, that the US respects, they will put in June as schedueled....To put it bluntly the US does not give a damn what certain ME countries think because they will always bea against the US...Almost every ME country complained about Afghanistan which in almost allwestern eyes was legit...if a western country steps up and challenges (not militarily)
the US, then something might happen...maybe even embargo some goods or something...I dont think that woiuld lead to a US war because no one would support another war.

[Roj]

Why dont prominent countries like Canada, Russia, Ireland, Scottland, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, France, Indian, Pakistan, China, Austrailia, South Africa, Egypt, Turkey put any pressure on the US...Because they're the 800 pound gorilla of the planet?

To put it bluntly the US does not give a damn what certain ME countries thinkThat could / should be modified to read "don't give a damn about what *any* country thinks".

That's why they're largely alone in world affair today.

The way to make the US take notice isn't with embargos or warfare. The most effective route is the financial one.

That's already happening.

Take a look at the relative value of the Euro lately?

[Roj]

I've been following this thread all the way and it's been very interesting.I was wondering when you'd wade into the fray wielding your claymore. :) :) :)

The comment I've heard recently that is best related to what you said was in Canadian media not too long ago. It referred to the US Constitution and how it was a pity that the country that had expressed those words had forgotten what they meant.

[rorythedog]

I was wondering when you'd wade into the fray wielding your claymore. :) :) :)

The comment I've heard recently that is best related to what you said was in Canadian media not too long ago. It referred to the US Constitution and how it was a pity that the country that had expressed those words had forgotten what they meant.

That's it exactly. It's not for me, or even my government, to sort out you're masters. You must do that yourself. You put these people there. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that you have a low voter turn out - as we do here. But it's my job to try to impress on my own people the importance of the vote. It's our collective unwilingness to vote that creates the voids into which people like Blair, Bush et al squirm. These people must be stopped. I still have a lot of this world to see and I don't particularly enjoy being a target for any disenfranchised terrorist.

BTW the people who murdered those people in the towers on 11/9 were not terrorists. I don't recall any demands or stated aims. They were murderers, plain and simple.

Also, I got the Sunday Times today and inside there was an interesting article concerning "The Decapitation Incident". Seems some high ranking experts are casting aspersions about the authenticity of the video. It would also appear to be the case that Mr. Berg actually had some pretty strong ties with a couple of the guys who went on to fly the planes into the WTC. This will run & run.


A round of applause for Michael Moore while we're at it.

[Qaz]

Why dont prominent countries like Canada, Russia, Ireland, Scottland, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, France, Indian, Pakistan, China, Austrailia, South Africa, Egypt, Turkey put any pressure on the US...
Hmm, let's think what happened in the UN before Iraq... To me it seems that America just doesn't care what other countries think about it. And is there any concrete action we could make towards it?

And what's a ME country?

Seems some high ranking experts are casting aspersions about the authenticity of the video.
I saw some stories about this on the net (they weren't from experts though), but none of the points presented really didn't prove me. Not even together.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

BTW the people who murdered those people in the towers on 11/9 were not terrorists. I don't recall any demands or stated aims. They were murderers, plain and simple.

11/9 ha ha ha classic. The proper way of dispaying the date. As for the attack. Well, they were terrorists. Causing terror to the american people. Funded and supported by Osama Bin Laden. An inhuman act of sheer cold-blooded unforgiveness and cruelty. Yep that pretty much to be scared of. :grimreape

[hedge]

11/9 ha ha ha classic.
HAHAHAHAHA go 11/9 go, it is only the US that uses the other method isn't it? They just have to be different in everything don't they...
But it's my job to try to impress on my own people the importance of the vote. It's our collective unwilingness to vote that creates the voids into which people like Blair, Bush et al squirm. These people must be stopped. I still have a lot of this world to see and I don't particularly enjoy being a target for any disenfranchised terrorist.
Anyway, this is probably going to get me flamed to shit, but in Australia everyone HAS to vote in both federal and state elections. Sure, people complain come election time, but it really is only 10 minutes of your time, and it shows the perspectives of the entire population, not only those that come from a few viewpoints.
Now i realise the whole freedom debate, but it really isn't an infringement on freedom, if it were it could be said every law is an infringement on freedom, as it forces you to do or not to do something. The real freedom is the right to vote for whoever you wish without being pressured one way or another through force, political or otherwise.
And, yes i believe june is too soon to leave iraq under its own control, as i believe it would not be a stable environment, but they can't stay there forever, and the longer the stay, the greater the anit-us sentiment amongst the people.

And its amazing the mindset of the japanese in the second world war, to think of continuing even when you know the absolute power the opposistion holds at its disposal... i wouldnt call it honour to leave your people under that sort of threat.

[rorythedog]

I believe voting should be compulsory in my country. The abstainers are the people most likely to vote against the status quo. Governments know this only too well, so don't expect my government to embrace that idea any time soon.

There would have to be one small caveat with compulsory voting. There would have to be a box for "none of the above". That way protest votes would also count.

[ianjohnson_nz]

I want to go back to an earlier point:

My life has not changed in any significant way since 9/11 and I think thats doing a good job.

Well that has to be the most selfish, short sighted comment I have read in this debate. God help us if over 50% of US voters take this attitude later in the year.

For mine, that comment sums up the entire problem with the US. A blatant disregard for anything beyond her own front doorstep. That's why she won't sign the Kyoto protocol, that's why she invaded Iraq, that's why she ignored Rwanda, that's why she wants to spend $400 billion to send a man to Mars.

Chicubs, you also commented that other countries should get of their high horse. Fair point, plenty of nations have skeletons in their closet. But two wrongs don't make a right. When you are an invading power, it is your responsibility to lead the way. Just because the Iraqis dished out appalling treatment to "enemy combatants" doesn't make it right for you to do so.

[Roj]

that's why she wants to spend $400 billion to send a man to Mars.
WHOA!!!

I am TOTALLY in favor of Mars exploration and for the following reasons:

Pretty much ALL of the technological developments we enjoy today came out of the space program, which by the way was mostly manned by CANADIAN scientists that went to work for NASA after Deif killed the Avro Arrow project in response to pressure from Washington (betcha you didn't know THAT :) ).

Also, at the rate we are screwing up this planet and befouling our own nest we are going to needs somewhere else to go. The technology developed in going to Mars will be a first step along that absolutely necessary road.

[ianjohnson_nz]

WHOA!!!

I am TOTALLY in favor of Mars exploration and for the following reasons:

Pretty much ALL of the technological developments we enjoy today came out of the space program, which by the way was mostly manned by CANADIAN scientists that went to work for NASA after Deif killed the Avro Arrow project in response to pressure from Washington (betcha you didn't know THAT :) ).

Also, at the rate we are screwing up this planet and befouling our own nest we are going to needs somewhere else to go. The technology developed in going to Mars will be a first step along that absolutely necessary road.

Haha, isn't that the beauty of democracy. I read through most of the thread earlier and thought I agreed with you on every point. Nice to know there are some things we can differ on.

I'm still of the mind that $400 billion could be better spent on avoiding environmental damage in the first place, but I accept your point about the technological benefits of going to the Moon. I didn't know about the Canadian scientists (surprise surprise). It's a bit of a worry when the world's superpower excuses going to Mars on the basis of pending environmental crises on Earth. If that isn't acceptance of environmental issues, I don't know what is. But will they sign Kyoto? Will they bollocks.

But back to Iraq...

[Roj]

Haha, isn't that the beauty of democracy. I read through most of the thread earlier and thought I agreed with you on every point. Nice to know there are some things we can differ on.

I'm still of the mind that $400 billion could be better spent on avoiding environmental damage in the first place, but I accept your point about the technological benefits of going to the Moon. I didn't know about the Canadian scientists (surprise surprise). It's a bit of a worry when the world's superpower excuses going to Mars on the basis of pending environmental crises on Earth. If that isn't acceptance of environmental issues, I don't know what is. But will they sign Kyoto? Will they bollocks.

But back to Iraq...
We're not really in disagreement - we seriously need to clean up the environment AND spend on space exploration. That leaves cutting defense spending in a world where the cowboys of the Cold War (stand UP, Dick Cheney!!) have no place.

[ianjohnson_nz]

We're not really in disagreement - we seriously need to clean up the environment AND spend on space exploration. That leaves cutting defense spending in a world where the cowboys of the Cold War (stand UP, Dick Cheney!!) have no place.

Yep, I'm with you...

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Tonite Bush is going to give ANOTHER one of his lovely SPEECHES about his PLAN and how to put it into ACTION. How the UN should lead a primary role under the command of AMERICA. And how Iraq will become a SAFER place before EARLY NOVEMBER. And how GOOD he's going to look if he pulls IT OFF.

Ha ha ha cmon Bush you can do better. GO to EUROPE, say that you made MISTAKES and seek SUPPORT, but ooh noo he's too PROUD of himself.

Lets hope the Iraqi people will be better off after the power transfer to the Iraqi government, but if violence does diminish lets not rush in to greet and thank president Bush.

[chicubs]

Tonite Bush is going to give ANOTHER one of his lovely SPEECHES about his PLAN and how to put it into ACTION. How the UN should lead a primary role under the command of AMERICA. And how Iraq will become a SAFER place before EARLY NOVEMBER. And how GOOD he's going to look if he pulls IT OFF.

Ha ha ha cmon Bush you can do better. GO to EUROPE, say that you made MISTAKES and seek SUPPORT, but ooh noo he's too PROUD of himself.

Lets hope the Iraqi people will be better off after the power transfer to the Iraqi government, but if violence does diminish lets not rush in to greet and thank president Bush.

At least he is asking for the UN...thats a start.

[ianjohnson_nz]

At least he is asking for the UN...thats a start.

Oh come off it chicubs, that's rubbish. He's only involving the UN because he knows that if he doesn't, he'll be left occupying a country with no-oe else's assistance. Even the British might pull out - 66% of Britons don't want to send any more troops to Iraq, and already 34% want to withdraw. The overwhelming majority want to see Britain distance itself from US foreign policy.

Besides, Bush isn't "asking" the UN: read any of today's major papers, and you'll see he is offering them zip. He wants to hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis - oh, but except where the US thinks it necessary to undertake military action of its own accord. Not exactly sovereignty is it? It's like saying to someone, "This is your house: here are the keys, it's yours. Except I reserve the right to enter & trash it at will". Examples: Faluja, Najaf.

Bush is finally realising he cannot go it alone. The US is being isolated more and more under his presidency, and contrary to popular belief, the US cannot stand alone in this world. So he's finally acknowledging he needs the assistance of France, Germany, et al. And he's not going to get it without concessions. Even Tony Blair is openly disagreeing with the suggested US military rights suggested by Bush.

Bush doesn't have a damn clue about the best way to handle this. Not surprising, really, as US understanding of the rest of the world is generally pitiful at best. Take this example: Sen Sam Brownback (Rep) was quoted in today's Wall Street Journal Europe saying:

"This community (the USA) is saying, 'We're the most dominant country in the history of humanity."

The only thing worse than the arrogance of this comment is the blatant ignorance it demonstrates (what about the Romans, British, French, Spanish and Portuguese! Not to mention the Persians and umpteen other far more world-dominating dynasties).

[chicubs]

Oh come off it chicubs, that's rubbish. He's only involving the UN because he knows that if he doesn't, he'll be left occupying a country with no-oe else's assistance. Even the British might pull out - 66% of Britons don't want to send any more troops to Iraq, and already 34% want to withdraw. The overwhelming majority want to see Britain distance itself from US foreign policy.

Examples: Faluja, Najaf.

Not surprising, really, as US understanding of the rest of the world is generally pitiful at best. Take this example: Sen Sam Brownback (Rep) was quoted in today's Wall Street Journal Europe saying:

"This community (the USA) is saying, 'We're the most dominant country in the history of humanity."


So....we know Bush was not going to be that smart....so thats why I said it was a START

Faluja, Najaf - just happens to be where a very radical leader lives who has killed a bunch of US soldiers....we should have to hold hands when we are at war...We shoudl not have to fight the way they want us to fight: guerilla war...As someone else mentioned, if we just left now, there would be chaos....This guy would talk power and hell would come for all iraqis.

Like I said earlier, its harder for americans to see the need to understand what is going on in the entire world. Texas is bigger than a lot of countries... imagine one out of 50 states is bigger than probably 15+ countries...Internal seems more important to them.

That was a stupid commment; however, right now we are the world's only super power.

[ianjohnson_nz]

So....we know Bush was not going to be that smart....so thats why I said it was a START

Faluja, Najaf - just happens to be where a very radical leader lives who has killed a bunch of US soldiers....we should have to hold hands when we are at war...We shoudl not have to fight the way they want us to fight: guerilla war...As someone else mentioned, if we just left now, there would be chaos....This guy would talk power and hell would come for all iraqis.

True. They have killed a bunch of US soldiers, for which I am genuinely dismayed. But nothing like as many civilians the US have accidentally (?) gunned down in the process. Everyone, including plenty of ex-US top brass, acknowledges that these two incursions were overly heavy-handed, and ultimately cost the US in support within the very community it is supposed to be liberating.

Like I said earlier, its harder for americans to see the need to understand what is going on in the entire world. Texas is bigger than a lot of countries... imagine one out of 50 states is bigger than probably 15+ countries...Internal seems more important to them.

Mmm, very true that. Still, the US was interested enough in Iraq to invade. You can't profess to liberate the oppressed world, and then beg ignorance about them.

Just out of interest, do you know which country is the world's largest democracy?

[Qaz]

Just out of interest, do you know which country is the world's largest democracy?
I know what isn't, the US. Not a word democracy mentioned in declaration of independence nor in the constitution. Or so I have at least read, maybe someone can confirm this.

[ianjohnson_nz]

I know what isn't, the US. Not a word democracy mentioned in declaration of independence nor in the constitution. Or so I have at least read, maybe someone can confirm this.

Valid point! I hadn't thought of that. Actually in hindsight I was rude to pose the question in that manner, sorry chicubs. India is the world's largest democracy. With ~1 billion people, it's quite a lot larger than Texas. The US might be the current superpower, but it's going to have to fight damn hard to retain that, with a number of countries far bigger than the US and also critically important in econimic terms (ie China).

But I digress. Chicubs I understand your support of the US military. I would fee the same way. But what exactly has the war in Iraq achieved for the US?

* loss of 800 US soldiers' lives
* further instability in the region
* loss of support for the US in foreign nations
* increase in oil prices
* huge cost to the US taxpayer
* an increase in support for Al Qaeda (a recent British study suggests there are now 18,000 followers, far more than before the "war on terrorism"
* no reduction in world exposure to WMD

Not to mention the loss of, potentially, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives. True, it's deposed Saddam, but was it really that beneficial to the US?

Of course the coalition must remain - what it started, it must finish. But with this cost to the US, nevermind the world, surely all US Americans must be furious with Bush's approach.

[chicubs]

Valid point! I hadn't thought of that. Actually in hindsight I was rude to pose the question in that manner, sorry chicubs. India is the world's largest democracy. With ~1 billion people, it's quite a lot larger than Texas. The US might be the current superpower, but it's going to have to fight damn hard to retain that, with a number of countries far bigger than the US and also critically important in econimic terms (ie China).

But I digress. Chicubs I understand your support of the US military. I would fee the same way. But what exactly has the war in Iraq achieved for the US?

* loss of 800 US soldiers' lives
* further instability in the region
* loss of support for the US in foreign nations
* increase in oil prices
* huge cost to the US taxpayer
* an increase in support for Al Qaeda (a recent British study suggests there are now 18,000 followers, far more than before the "war on terrorism"
* no reduction in world exposure to WMD

Not to mention the loss of, potentially, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives. True, it's deposed Saddam, but was it really that beneficial to the US?

Of course the coalition must remain - what it started, it must finish. But with this cost to the US, nevermind the world, surely all US Americans must be furious with Bush's approach.

I really dont like the war....but badmouthing your soldiers like some americans do does not help anyone...Imagine you are a soldier and then you come home and everyone spits on you...Thats what you were fighting and risking your lives for?

The only benefit was getting rid of Saddam....it just should have happened 10 years ago, but the previous Bush did not do it even though he very easily could have.

Also, the peopole of the US were not actually going to install a demoncracy after 1776. They wanted George Washington as KING...but democracy came thank god.

Yes, India is just a little bit bigger than texas :robot: ...however, they have rbought the world to the brink of nuclear war

[ianjohnson_nz]

I really dont like the war....but badmouthing your soldiers like some americans do does not help anyone...Imagine you are a soldier and then you come home and everyone spits on you...Thats what you were fighting and risking your lives for?

The only benefit was getting rid of Saddam....it just should have happened 10 years ago, but the previous Bush did not do it even though he very easily could have.

I couldn't agree with you more. So why do you support G W Bush?

[chicubs]

I couldn't agree with you more. So why do you support Bush?

Because, in my mind, he did handle 9/11 very well...Clinton/Gore would NOT have gone into Afghanistan....Hes also a nice guy....I know that might be an image, but its very hard to believe he is the evil of all evils....He is like a nice old grandpa....Also, Al Gore would have been terrible...I hate him, such a boring person.....

I was actually rooting for McCain to beat out Bush. He is a nice in betweeen Democrates and Republicans.

[ianjohnson_nz]

Because, in my mind, he did handle 9/11 very well...Clinton/Gore would NOT have gone into Afghanistan....Hes also a nice guy....I know that might be an image, but its very hard to believe he is the evil of all evils....He is like a nice old grandpa....Also, Al Gore would have been terrible...I hate him, such a boring person.....

I was actually rooting for McCain to beat out Bush. He is a nice in betweeen Democrates and Republicans.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not aiming to criticise you or anyone else who supports Bush. I'm just trying to understand why. I don't see how Bush handled 11/9 well. If he'd acted beforehand, it might not have happened at all (I know, I know, hindsight, and probably true of anyone in his position, but still valid). I too don't think he is evil, but that doesn't change the fact that his policies have cost you severely, to re-iterate:
* loss of 800 US soldiers' lives
* further instability in the region
* loss of support for the US in foreign nations
* increase in oil prices
* huge cost to the US taxpayer
* an increase in support for Al Qaeda (a recent British study suggests there are now 18,000 followers, far more than before the "war on terrorism"
* no reduction in world exposure to WMD

How can that possibly constitute a "good job"?

A good grandpa he may be, but a good president he is not.

[chicubs]

The relations with the middle east were Ok (as ok as they are going to be) with the Afghanistan situation...it was not till the iraq thing when his presidency went bad....

...Clinton should have started attacking al qaeda but instead he set on his ass and fired a couple cruise missles into Afghanistan which hit some terrorist huts...however he shoudl know that those huts/facilites can be rebuilt in less than a month....Clinton was too much of peace maker, imo; however, i admire him for the way he came so close to solving the pal situation.

[rorythedog]

Sorry to be contrary here but, unlike some, I have no trouble criticising GWB or anyone else who supports him or his policies. As I've said before, I don't believe he's pulling the strings but that only makes him, at best, an idiot. Forget about 11/9, forget about Afghanistan or Iraq. He, and his party stole his election. Why this doesn't fill you with anger I'll never know. Is that the kind of "Democracy" you would impose on Iraq? A system where elections are decided by who has the most money, irrespective of the will of the people. Your will.

Come to think of it, did you vote? If so, who for? GWB? It is irrelevant whether or not you think he's doing a good job. He's a cheat and a liar. Those aren't really qualities you'd look for in a head of state, are they? Surely not.

I know that the average US citizen is the same as the average Scot. Or,for that matter, the average African, Chinese, Afghani or Iraqi. We all want the same things in life. We all love our families and would do anything to protect them. I know these things. But it's quite possible that the average Iraqi or Afghani has a very different impression of your people. GWB is your Ambassador. Aren't you, even slightly, ashamed?

Way before 11/9, your countrys' moral standing was low. After that event, your country had a glorious opportunity to do the right thing. To talk to these people all over the world that your country has been actively oppressing for at least 40 years. But no, it's "Get out the really big bombs" time. Again.

And lo and behold, as reported today by Amnesty International, the world has become a far more dangerous place post 11/9. Or are Amnesty International just a bunch of Commies in suits?

It's long past time for the US public to take their collective head out of the sand and start setting some humanitarian examples. The only moral messages being projected by your Government presently are :-

MIGHT IS RIGHT! and GREED IS GOOD!

WRONG! On both counts.

BTW The reason for my references to your people as US citizens is that I do not wish to offend other Americans. Be they your neighbours to the South or North. Or indeed, indigenous Americans. Remember them?

If this offends, so be it. I'll stand by it. I'm being perfectly reasonable, but time's running out, man.

[Qaz]

Or indeed, indigenous Americans. Remember them?
For this one, only Europeans can be blamed...

[Matt]

Yes, India is just a little bit bigger than texas :robot: ...however, they have rbought the world to the brink of nuclear war
I think the closest the world has ever been to nuclear war was the cuban missle crisis. So I think saying that is a pot calling a kettle black.

[chicubs]

Sorry to be contrary here but, unlike some, I have no trouble criticising GWB or anyone else who supports him or his policies. As I've said before, I don't believe he's pulling the strings but that only makes him, at best, an idiot. Forget about 11/9, forget about Afghanistan or Iraq. He, and his party stole his election. Why this doesn't fill you with anger I'll never know. Is that the kind of "Democracy" you would impose on Iraq? A system where elections are decided by who has the most money, irrespective of the will of the people. Your will.

Come to think of it, did you vote? If so, who for? GWB? It is irrelevant whether or not you think he's doing a good job. He's a cheat and a liar. Those aren't really qualities you'd look for in a head of state, are they? Surely not.

I know that the average US citizen is the same as the average Scot. Or,for that matter, the average African, Chinese, Afghani or Iraqi. We all want the same things in life. We all love our families and would do anything to protect them. I know these things. But it's quite possible that the average Iraqi or Afghani has a very different impression of your people. GWB is your Ambassador. Aren't you, even slightly, ashamed?

Way before 11/9, your countrys' moral standing was low. After that event, your country had a glorious opportunity to do the right thing. To talk to these people all over the world that your country has been actively oppressing for at least 40 years. But no, it's "Get out the really big bombs" time. Again.

And lo and behold, as reported today by Amnesty International, the world has become a far more dangerous place post 11/9. Or are Amnesty International just a bunch of Commies in suits?

It's long past time for the US public to take their collective head out of the sand and start setting some humanitarian examples. The only moral messages being projected by your Government presently are :-

MIGHT IS RIGHT! and GREED IS GOOD!

WRONG! On both counts.

BTW The reason for my references to your people as US citizens is that I do not wish to offend other Americans. Be they your neighbours to the South or North. Or indeed, indigenous Americans. Remember them?

If this offends, so be it. I'll stand by it. I'm being perfectly reasonable, but time's running out, man.


OMG!! I didnt talk about half the crap you are talking about...He didnt steal the election. People from florida need to learn how to vote right....get over it.

Why the hell shoudl I be ashamed? Yes, he is the ambassador but like any country, there is wide variety of people. good and bad..black, white, indian, native american, middle eastern...

So we get attacked by terrorist and we should just talk, screw that...Like you Brits asked the south africans and indians view...Right?...If you are going to take shots about our treatment of the Native Americans (Which was terrible and that is something I am slightly ashamed of..I say slightly because it wasnt my ancestors he did it) be able to talk the hit for what Britain has done...the most brutally imperialistic nation of recent memory .....guess you were being too reasonable to mention that, eh? Yes, we are made from an imperialistic nation, but the US is definately not Britain, right? After all we wanted to get away from Britain and did.

If afghans and iraqis judge the american people by GW that is their problem...I DONT judge all afghans by Bin Laden and I DONT judge all Iraqi's by Saddam. Us people are not generally evil people....I guarentee if you came to the midwest you would find they are some of most hospitable people in the entire world.

No, I did not vote in the previous election. Like I said, I wante McCain.

[chicubs]

I think the closest the world has ever been to nuclear war was the cuban missle crisis. So I think saying that is a pot calling a kettle black.

Well...The Soviets did that, didnt they?...they brought the missles over to us, not the US to them.

[rorythedog]

For this one, only Europeans can be blamed...

Yeah I know, point taken. But little has been done since to redress the balance.

Unlike some, I'm not waving the European flag (or any of it's constituant nations). I'm merely trying to be logical and fair.

When aliens finally do make contact with us, and only then, the peoples of this planet will suddenly see they have rather a lot in common after all.

I just hope we live to see the day.

Careful who you're calling a Brit, mate. I'm a Scot. In Scotland (that's one "t" you'll notice). Since I have been old enough to vote I've consistently voted for the party which will bring Scotland her independence. I have strong Socialist principles. I am no defender of the british state.

It might be a coincidence that you should mention the british state, because britain's past could well turn into your future. The similarities are many. And it is rather ironic, don't you think?

[Matt]

OMG!! I didnt talk about half the crap you are talking about...He didnt steal the election. People from florida need to learn how to vote right....get over it.

Why the hell shoudl I be ashamed? Yes, he is the ambassador but like any country, there is wide variety of people. good and bad..black, white, indian, native american, middle eastern...

So we get attacked by terrorist and we should just talk, screw that...Like you Brits asked the south africans and indians view...Right?...If you are going to take shots about our treatment of the Native Americans (Which was terrible and that is something I am slightly ashamed of..I say slightly because it wasnt my ancestors he did it) be able to talk the hit for what Britain has done...the most brutally imperialistic nation of recent memory .....guess you were being too reasonable to mention that, eh? Yes, we are made from an imperialistic nation, but the US is definately not Britain, right? After all we wanted to get away from Britain and did.

If afghans and iraqis judge the american people by GW that is their problem...I DONT judge all afghans by Bin Laden and I DONT judge all Iraqi's by Saddam. Us people are not generally evil people....I guarentee if you came to the midwest you would find they are some of most hospitable people in the entire world.

No, I did not vote in the previous election. Like I said, I wante McCain.
aside:

I think you should refer to 'Brits' as the English and leave out Scotland because the poor old Scots were also devasated by them (among sooo many other colonized nations). Battle of Culloden and afterwards clearing out the highlanders to make way for sheep.

Don't worry Scotland, I got your back!! :)

back to regular scheduled programming.

[jkrzok]

Well...The Soviets did that, didnt they?...they brought the missles over to us, not the US to them.

Actually the Soviets put missiles in Cuba in response to US nuclear missiles in Turkey. Part of the Missile Crisis settlement was the removal of the missiles in both locations.

[Roj]

When aliens finally do make contact with us, and only then, the peoples of this planet will suddenly see they have rather a lot in common after all..
I see that you also don't buy into the supreme arrogance that we are alone and special in the universe. :)

I just hope we live to see the day.
The odds of that are not encouraging. If our interminable conflicts don't do us in, our constant debauchery of the environment likely will.

[chicubs]

Actually the Soviets put missiles in Cuba in response to US nuclear missiles in Turkey. Part of the Missile Crisis settlement was the removal of the missiles in both locations.

aaah...yes, you are correct...A hasty reaction on my part, sorry.

[ianjohnson_nz]

The relations with the middle east were Ok (as ok as they are going to be) with the Afghanistan situation...it was not till the iraq thing when his presidency went bad....

...Clinton should have started attacking al qaeda but instead he set on his ass and fired a couple cruise missles into Afghanistan which hit some terrorist huts...however he shoudl know that those huts/facilites can be rebuilt in less than a month....Clinton was too much of peace maker, imo; however, i admire him for the way he came so close to solving the pal situation.
Well in that case, the big question:
* who do you support now? why?

You're copping it from all angles here - it must feel like being a Muslim in an evangelical Christian church on a Sunday morning. But do stay!

"Clinton was too much of a peace maker." Just what is wrong with that? You still haven't responded to the long list of disastrous consequences the war on terror has had on the US (nevermind the rest of the world).

If you still support Bush, then I want convincing why. And it needs to be more than "he handled 911 well". Once we've all agreed Bush is an ignorant, arrogant bigot then we can start deciding who will be good for the nation/world.

By the way, if you're wondering why the rest of the world picks on the US so much, it's because you're the biggest, and what you do has massive influence on the rest of us. So we give a damn.

And Rory - I'm with you. This incessant habit of calling US Americans just plain "Americans" is yet more evidence of pure ignorance and arrogance.

[Qaz]

If you still support Bush, then I want convincing why. And it needs to be more than "he handled 911 well". Once we've all agreed Bush is an ignorant, arrogant bigot then we can start deciding who will be good for the nation/world.
Haven't Chicubs mentioned several times that he's original support went to the third candidate ... what was he's name ... McCain? Well, it's not my part to decide who would deserve to be the president, people has spoken and there's nothing we can do for it.

By the way, if you're wondering why the rest of the world picks on the US so much, it's because you're the biggest, and what you do has massive influence on the rest of us. So we give a damn.
But this goes the other way around too, rest of the world has a huge influence on US too (mainly economically). Let just hope they start caring soon enough. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

[ianjohnson_nz]

Haven't Chicubs mentioned several times that he's original support went to the third candidate ... what was he's name ... McCain?
Yes you're right, but chicubs also states "I think pres bush is doing a good job" and that's the part I'm trying to understand.

[chicubs]

Yes you're right, but chicubs also states "I think pres bush is doing a good job" and that's the part I'm trying to understand.

...He did a good job in Afghanistan, imo...He has done a decent job, internally, imo, and he has done a bad bad job in iraq, imo.

Thats how it breaks down.

EDIT: btw thanks for just mis-quoting me completely, dont put it in quotes if I didnt say it.

[jkrzok]

How can anyone say Bush has done a good job in Afghanistan? Only Kabul is stable, the rest of the country's been turned over to the warlords. Afghanistan is far from over. It's not a success just because it isn't in the news.

What has Bush done domestically? His mandated but unfunded "No Child Left Behind?" His tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the working poor? His attempt to make millions of US workers ineligible for overtime pay? Stagnant wages for US workers? Ballooning deficits? His stewardship of ANWAR? His concern for all who must breathe and drink as he relaxes pollution restrictions and slashes enforcement efforts? His illegal funding of official government propaganda? Drug costs that are rising at three times the rate of inflation? His desire to write discrimination into the U.S. Constitution by permanently banning same-sex couples from the legal rights and privileges of civil marriage? Lets not even go into his naked attack on our civil rights.

Bush has to go. Redefeat Bush!

[Roj]

people has spoken and there's nothing we can do for it.If you believe that George W's election wasn't "engineered" (read: "rigged by brother Jeb"), then you need to take a much harder look at what transpired in the state of Florida. That was the most blatantly obvious rigging job since Huey Long.

I mean, dead people elected Bush.

Dead.

Pushing up daisies.

For years.

No, it wasn't people who elected Bush so they most assuredly did not speak.

It was The Undead. :) :) :)

[chicubs]

If you believe that George W's election wasn't "engineered" (read: "rigged by brother Jeb"), then you need to take a much harder look at what transpired in the state of Florida. That was the most blatantly obvious rigging job since Huey Long.

I mean, dead people elected Bush.

Dead.

Pushing up daisies.

For years.

No, it wasn't people who elected Bush so they most assuredly did not speak.

It was The Undead. :) :) :)


it still would have been close as hell and people need to get over it...

[chicubs]

Well in that case, the big question:
* who do you support now? why?

"Clinton was too much of a peace maker." Just what is wrong with that? You still haven't responded to the long list of disastrous consequences the war on terror has had on the US (nevermind the rest of the world).

If you still support Bush, then I want convincing why. And it needs to be more than "he handled 911 well". Once we've all agreed Bush is an ignorant, arrogant bigot then we can start deciding who will be good for the nation/world.



I support no one in the current elections...I will not vote again...John Kerry is NOT the answer...He insults people behind his back, cares more about his personal appearence than anything else.

I support Bush because he is my f'in president and leader right now and he had millions and millions of people in support of him...I dont like the way he is going but he is NOT evil like you guys make him out to be...just stupid (even in school-smarts way, he straight C's at Yale)

Afghanistan was a success because he took the neccesssary action to go in there while Clinton would not have. It WAS a success before Iraq because it made Al Qaeda almost inoperatable....again until the Iraq war where they like 18,000 new members.

jkrzok, there is areason why I choose "decent" for my word choice

"Clinton was too much of a peace maker." Just what is wrong with that? You still haven't responded to the long list of disastrous consequences the war on terror has had on the US (nevermind the rest of the world)."

if you would read my post you would actually get the answer....Clinton was a little bit soft when he came face to face with terrorism...Embassy bombings, he retaliation was W-E-A-K, pointless and did nothing to stop the terrorrists.

[Roj]

it still would have been close as hell and people need to get over it...No.

Electoral fraud is NOT something people need to get over.

It's something people need to prosecute and indict.

It invalidates the whole premise of democracy (which is a myth anyway but we won't go there).

People yelled "impeachment" at Clinton because he had a piece of ass (no subtlety here). No one screamed "impeachment" when George W and his brother defrauded the citizens of the United States and raped the electoral process.

"get over it" indeed...

Santayana!!!!!

Also, for the record, there was absolutely nothing stupid about how the Florida vote was rigged - other than the rather obvious use of dead "voters".

Furthermore, don't confuse strength with posturing and bravado.

There is a HUGE difference.

[jkrzok]

"Last night President Bush spoke on how we will hand power
over to the Iraqi people. We're going to fix their
infrastructure, their economy and give them more jobs –
and if it works there we'll try it over here."
-David Letterman

[Heigar]

"Last night President Bush spoke on how we will hand power
over to the Iraqi people. We're going to fix their
infrastructure, their economy and give them more jobs –
and if it works there we'll try it over here."
-David Letterman
ha ha ha that sounds right!:laugh:

[rorythedog]

Predictions

1. Osama Bin Laden is dead already.

2. Saddam Hussein will never come to trial.

3. Syria will be occupied within 2 years.

4. US & UK will sign major oil contracts with Russia within 1 year.

5.US & UK will be at war with, or inside, Saudi Arabia within 2 years.

These predictions are dependent on the US & UK regimes (I use the word advisedly), remaining in power that long.

Any comments welcome. :carrot:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

...John Kerry is NOT the answer...

Cant agree more. I want Wesley K. Clark :bulb:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Predictions

1. Osama Bin Laden is dead already.

He's alive, alive and kicking :grimreape

2. Saddam Hussein will never come to trial.

I agree (or maybe in 100 years)

3. Syria will be occupied within 2 years.

Or blown up

4. US & UK will sign major oil contracts with Russia within 1 year.

I dont think Russia wants anything to do with UK or US. I do believe that the oil in Iraq is still going to be at least partially under US control, whether the Iraqis like it or not.

5.US & UK will be at war with, or inside, Saudi Arabia within 2 years.

Saudi Arabia is an ally of the US. But it could happen as it has happened with Iraq.

[rorythedog]

Look here. (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_911.html)

And here. (http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm)

Regarding the American Declaration of Independence. Many think it's based, at least partly, on this. (http://www.constitution.org/scot/arbroath.htm)

[ianjohnson_nz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianjohnson_nz
Yes you're right, but chicubs also states "I think pres bush is doing a good job" and that's the part I'm trying to understand.

EDIT: btw thanks for just mis-quoting me completely, dont put it in quotes if I didnt say it.
Hi

Been on holiday, hence the late response. I didn't misquote you. I did take the liberty of paraphrasing this comment of yours, from much earlier in the thread (in response to a question about why the next election might be close):

"Because Bush has done pretty well for the country on the inside...all the complaints are about his foreign policy. My life has not changed in any significant way since 9/11 and I think thats doing a good job."

[loz_hurst]

With D-Day just gone it seems appropriate to mention - if WWII was 'the war to end all wars' then WTF is bush playing fighting another war.

Although on some level I agree that global terrorism is a major problem that needs dealing with, I don't agree with bush's method. Fighting may be needed but screwing up 2 countries (at least so far), namely Afganistan and Iraq, is not going to help matters as the international community will have to support these coutries post war and help with peace-keeping within the countries (not that I can see much peace in either!). Note Bosnia, and how long that went on for.

[rorythedog]

That's the question. Personally, I thought the US & UK were there to install "Democratic freedom". Is this US democracy in action. What about the charges levelled at President Bush? Or that twat Blair? Why does nobody give a damn about justice anymore? Ethics, morality? The vast majority of the Free world has moved on from corporal punishment!

What on Earth will be solved the day he hangs? Does anybody still believe that he, or his Nation, had anything to do with 11/9? What the hell is happening in this world? Are the only people who see sense consigned to hang around in dingy forums, forever preaching to the converted?

Whew. Sorry for the rant folks. And all the questions. When I was a teenager I used to think I knew the answer to everything. God, how wrong I was.

When I was a bairn, if I was caught in a lie, my mum used to say, "Now look son, everyone else can't be wrong, and you're right. It just doesn't work that way".

Doesn't it?

[jkrzok]

All we need is another martyr for Islam. And did you see that Iraqi poll where ~40% of Iraqis said Saddam should go free? Like the US doesn't have enough opposition already. I won't go into the morality of he death penalty, although I will say that if I agreed with the death penalty, Saddam would be first on my list.

[rorythedog]

Thing is though, Saddam Hussein was NEVER a martyr for Islam. His was a secular state. The US governments ignorance in lumping all this people together will surely pay back "a thousandfold".

[jkrzok]

Thing is though, Saddam Hussein was NEVER a martyr for Islam.

My thinking is that Islamic extremists will claim him as a martyr for the propaganda value. At some level Saddam was Islamic and in the highly polarized world view of extremists (on either side) that is enough.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

(Does anyone know where that quote comes from? it's not at bartleby.com)

[Roj]

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Your quote is particularly amusing and apropos since it is in fact an old arab proverb.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Your quote is particularly amusing and apropos since it is in fact an old arab proverb.

Ha ha ha There must be some law that dictates that the driving force is to minimise the number of enemies one has.

How about "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" ;)

About Saddam, he's gonna get executed whether he likes it or not. :skull:

[Roj]

Ha ha ha There must be some law that dictates that the driving force is to minimise the number of enemies one has.

How about "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" ;)

About Saddam, he's gonna get executed whether he likes it or not. :skull:
Possibly - but it will not have been the moral right of the US to do it. That was and is the internal business of Iraq and Iraq only.

Anything else is trumped up PR sham - period.

[rorythedog]

So did the CIA overstate the case? Or, more likely, are Bush & Co just lying, warmongering conmen who had made the decision to go to war years ago?

Thing is, why do these people only have to resign. To you and me, that's a problem. To these people it's nothing of the sort. Perhaps a business directorship, or maybe a book. Yet more money is there to be made by these b******s.

Please feel free to speak up folks. This is beginning to feel like my own personal space.

[jkrzok]

It looks to me like the Bushies are trying to lay this little mistake on the CIA's and George Tennent's door. No doubt the Bushies were fed erroneous information by the CIA but it is always the responsibility of the decision maker to judge the reliability of the information and to seek out alternative viewpoints in order to make a more rational decision. This is where the Bushies failed. George Bush is the boss of the CIA. It was George Bush's decision to go to war. It is his responsibility alone.

In my opinion the CIA fell trap to what happens so often within large bureaucratic organizations, giving the boss what he wants to hear. We know that from day one that the Bushies main policy interest was Iraq and the removal of Saddam. Is it any wonder that those subordinate to the Bushies, interested in advancing their own careers, would tailor, even subconsciously, the information delivered to the Bushies?

[rorythedog]

Made me laugh anyway.

[Paul]

Hey guys, why not bring this thread back to life, eh?

I wrote the quote below back in May (see start of this thread for a refresher). Stay tuned, the Bushies are starting to get out the red carpet for - guess who? - Mr Bin Laden! Yay....!

If anyone believes anything the Bushies have to say after this coming bit of theater, you are a sucker. Sorry, I have to say it.

Love you's all, no hard feelings. Keep this community going strong!
-Paul

Oh, and about Bin Landen. I'll almost guarantee that he'll be caught the moment it's politically advantageous for Bush (close to the election?). Then many mindless voters will go "Holy shit we won! Bush really is great!".

How will he pull this off? Bin Laden is a tired old man wandering some hillside. He's been under the coallition's foot for years. He hasn't been picked up yet because it would be too embarrasing for Bush to have to him caught as he would have to find another reason to launch his wars.

[Heigar]

He's probably been caught for a long time now and they are just waiting for the election time to draw closer just for that reason.

[Roj]

He's probably been caught for a long time now and they are just waiting for the election time to draw closer just for that reason.
There's only one problem with this: too many people would know if they had him already. While I certainly don't dispute the ability of George W. and cronies to mislead and manipulate the American public (after all, the phrase "I see dead people" takes on an entirely new meaning when applied to election shenanigans in the State of Florida), I do have a problem with the concept of keeping such a major event a secret.

I deem it far more likely that the conversation went as follows:

"Guys, Kerry is gaining on us. He's making us look bad. We need a dog and pony show for The American People now. Today. Something we can hold up to the gullible rubes and say 'See, We're Doing Our Job In The Artificially Inflated Fight Against Terrorism So Elect Us Again' so that they'll do just that. Now, we pretty much know where the bastard is, right? Let's stage a debutante-coming-out-party for Mr. BL about five days before the election. Due to the timing, Kerry will never recover. We'll all look like heroes (cue in Bowie's "We Can Be Heroes, Just For One Day" lyrics but sing by the Wallflowers - gotta keep it fresh and "new" in the eyes of the public). Whaddya think?"

Stay tuned folks - same Bat Day, same Bat Channel...

[matty28carter]

The thing that gets me is that in this country (UK) and most probably the rest of the world, we all look at the american presidential elections as the biggest scam ('part from our own elections :ponder: ) on the planet. Trouble is, the american elections do affect us, coz lets face it, america is one of - if not the most powerful country in the world. We all know Bush is gonna pull a rabbit outta his hat and is pritty much 90% bound to win the elections. The other thing i can't belive is that Bush in america (in a recent poll i believe) is considered "good on security". WTF? I'm just not even gonna go there.

(cue in Bowie's "We Can Be Heroes, Just For One Day" lyrics but sing by the Wallflowers - gotta keep it fresh and "new" in the eyes of the public).
Still can't believe Bowie thought that song up on the bog. Actually, come to think of it, probs where most of the US governments plans get thought up. :knocked-o

[matty28carter]

The War Against Terror....

[rorythedog]

Thought some of you guys might appreciate the significance of this.

Even the Joint Chiefs of Staff in charge of US defenses has a shadow side
called "Special Operations". In 1962, JCS generals plotted to murder
Americans and blame Cuba for their own terrorist acts. One "Project
Northwoods" memo explained how, after blowing up a US ship or airliner,
"Casualty lists in the US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national
indignation" - and support for an invasion of Cuba. [Baltimore Sun April
24, 2001]

Mad over Marxists, all five Joint Chiefs opted for a walk in the
Northwoods. But documents obtained by former ABC investigative reporter
James Bamford detail how their plan was rejected by President Kennedy -
shortly before JFK was shot by multiple assailants in Texas. [James
Bamford, Body of Secrets]

Fast-forward to Sept. 11, 2001: The heirs of Northwoods are now in charge
of air defense over New York City and their nation's capitol. Their main
man to make things happen is acting NORAD head, Air Force Gen. Richard
Myers. Unlike his court-martialed counterparts charged with defending Oahu
in 1941, the officer responsible for America's "second Pearl Harbor"
escaped censure or even reprimand after admitting that - oops! - he failed
to launch interceptors until after the Pentagon and World Trade Center were
burning. ["Gen. Richard Myers at Senate hearing" NBC Sept. 16, 2001]

Bush Administration planned and executed September 11th in order to justify
a huge defense build-up, stifle domestic political opposition, curtail civil
liberties, and invade Afghanistan to lock up Central Asia's enormous
untapped oil reserves. The Kennedy Administration, Meyssan points out,
contemplated a similar scenario in its Internet-famous 1962 Northwoods memo.
Northwoods suggested launching acts of domestic terrorism against Cuban
exiles and others in order to galvanize support for a Cold War defense
expansion. September 11, Meyssan posits, is Northwoods for the 21st century.

Food for thought.

[Roj]

The War Against Terror....
ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!

[rorythedog]

The Leader Of The 'Free' World.

[Roj]

Thought some of you guys might appreciate the significance of this.

** snip **

Food for thought.
Wow, not even Michael Moore is this far out... :)

[rorythedog]

HeHe!

[Paul]

Wow, not even Michael Moore is this far out... :)
There is a lot of evidence that the Bush administration is complicit in 9/11. Most americans can't fathom that a president would do such a thing, so they do just that, not fathom it.

[rorythedog]

It's not as though the US government hasn't done this kind of thing before.

[Roj]

There is a lot of evidence that the Bush administration is complicit in 9/11. Most americans can't fathom that a president would do such a thing, so they do just that, not fathom it.
I ain't American but I believe in cold hard undeniable evidence. I don't particularly care that such proof would bring a government down - I just want it aired beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Hearsay isn't a conviction and those allegations are pretty grim.

I want proof.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Well, well look at this (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/10/18/putin.iraq/index.html). Mr. president Putin is backing up Bush. This can't be right, oh wait, maybe he's getting paid handsomely by Bush himself. Okay, so Russia did suffer a horrible terrorist attack, yet again. But, how does this tie in with Bush? This totally doesn't make sense. Before America attacked Iraq, Russia, France, and Germany were big time against an invasion, against the policies of Bush. Well, those sure haven't changed, so what did make Putin change his mind?

On another note, the "New York times" have made public their allegiance to Kerry. Yay :)

Still Bush is performing better in the public polls at the moment. It's really down to Kerry. Kerry should be more consistent and clear. At times i feel he does create unnecessary confusion on his policies. Bush takes advantage of that. I'm against Bush, but honestly i dont see Kerry winning the elections, which is a real pity.

[rorythedog]

The fact that Putin has sucked-up to Bush shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. The only reason France and Russia opposed the war was because both countries had existing lucrative oil contracts with Iraq. Their official opposition to the war was merely a delaying tactic to ensure these companies made good.

The "terrorist attack" that Russia suffered had nothing to do with Iraq. Rather it was a direct result of the Russian oppression of Chechnya. Thousands of healthy Chechen males have "disappeared". Why won't the Russian government enter dialogue with the Chechen "rebels"? Guess what Chechnya has under it's soil?

What about Afghanistan? Coincidentally, Afghanistan will need to be secure before the proposed oil pipeline, from Khazakstan to the coast of Pakistan, is opened. Guess who's building said pipeline? Does the name Halliburton ring any bells? Which brings us to Pakistan. Where do you guys think Bin Laden is? My money's on Pakistan. That's why he's not been caught, yet. That's also why, as sure as night follows day, he will be caught. Maybe even before the US elections.

This all reeks to high heaven, if you'll pardon the colloquialism. Kerry? Who cares how good he'd be? Personally, I'd vote for a monkey before I'd vote for Bush. Although judging by his recent demonstration of "debating skills", there might not be that much difference.

Seriously, the US public has to do themselves, and the world at large, a big favour. Get rid of that clown. And make sure the people who pull his strings are removed also. I genuinely fear for my future if the Bush administration wins another term.

Rex, you make good points about the stance of the major European players before the attack on Afghanistan. But don't confuse the will of the peoples of these countries, with the will of their respective governments. I'll wager they're two entirely different things.

Rant over. For now.

[Paul]

The only reason France and Russia opposed the war was because both countries had existing lucrative oil contracts with Iraq. Their official opposition to the war was merely a delaying tactic to ensure these companies made good.
I seriously doubt this. This is mearly the RNC character assassination machine at work. If France really wanted to participate in the looting of Iraq, they would have joined the war.

Don't forget that that vast majority of the population of every country except for the US opposes the occupation in Iraq. Perhaps France just has politicians that bother to listen to the populace?

[rorythedog]

I seriously doubt this. This is mearly the RNC character assassination machine at work. If France really wanted to participate in the looting of Iraq, they would have joined the war.

Don't forget that that vast majority of the population of every country except for the US opposes the occupation in Iraq. Perhaps France just has politicians that bother to listen to the populace?

Doubt it if you will. 30 seconds with Google came up with this (http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=404&id=1167782004) this (http://english.daralhayat.com/OPED/07-2004/Article-20040707-9afc2e3e-c0a8-01ed-0004-aa0249afc86d/story.html) and this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1291280_1,00.html)

[Paul]

Yep, looks like a whole load of crookedness going on there. Ok, so there is a case against France.
Doubt it if you will. 30 seconds with Google came up with this (http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=404&id=1167782004) this (http://english.daralhayat.com/OPED/07-2004/Article-20040707-9afc2e3e-c0a8-01ed-0004-aa0249afc86d/story.html) and this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1291280_1,00.html)

[hedge]

Heres what im really annoyed about: The australian people and their hatred of change.
I swear thats the only reason howard made another term, people just hate change in this country. And now it looks like he'll have control of the senate as well, which means that he has almost total control of this country. Which in a sick way means that Bush will have control of the military resources of this country.
Howard dragged us into Irag, afghanistan and the whole stinking mess, upped uni fees by 25% with promises of further raises, gives private schooling more money despite there being alot more kids in public and the list goes on.... Oh but wait, the economys booming... heh how booming will it be in a few years?

So heres what im thinking is gonna happen in the yanky elections: Bush will win because people are scared of change. And when that happens he'll start a whole new wave of shit world wide, all in the name of god and country, and guess who'll be following directly behind like the fools we are, why Australia of course.
:devil:

[Sheepeh]

It's all a cunning plan on our part I'm afraid. We went to a gypsy quite a few years back and she told us this would happen, so we made an island of all our convicts on. We made it on the other side of the world so people would forget it was ours. Then, the next part of the plan was to switch our current place behind the bush brigade with you lot (no-one could tell the difference, see?)

Only, we didn't realise how long this would take - so now you've all mutated so you *can* tell the difference, so as usual the plan backfires...now we're ALL stuck behind the bush brigade, and you get a nice sunny island in the bargain...

(source : Conspiracy Theories Reunited)

:paranoid:

[fatal error]

Don King for President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[madjo]

Heres what im really annoyed about: The australian people and their hatred of change.
I swear thats the only reason howard made another term, people just hate change in this country. And now it looks like he'll have control of the senate as well, which means that he has almost total control of this country. Which in a sick way means that Bush will have control of the military resources of this country.
Howard dragged us into Irag, afghanistan and the whole stinking mess, upped uni fees by 25% with promises of further raises, gives private schooling more money despite there being alot more kids in public and the list goes on.... Oh but wait, the economys booming... heh how booming will it be in a few years?

So heres what im thinking is gonna happen in the yanky elections: Bush will win because people are scared of change. And when that happens he'll start a whole new wave of shit world wide, all in the name of god and country, and guess who'll be following directly behind like the fools we are, why Australia of course.
:devil:

not only Australia follows Bushie wherever he wants you too. Also the Dutch Prime-minister, our own Harry Potter euhm, I mean Balkenende (which is his real name, he just looks like HP) dragged our ass into this conflict, where we had nothing to gain from. The little lapdog... :(
Bush throws the stick, JP Balkenende apports.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

not only Australia follows Bushie wherever he wants you too. Also the Dutch Prime-minister, our own Harry Potter euhm, I mean Balkenende (which is his real name, he just looks like HP) dragged our ass into this conflict, where we had nothing to gain from. The little lapdog... :(
Bush throws the stick, JP Balkenende apports.

Ha ha ha Then he ends up in the hospital for weeks on end due to a toe infection while behind his back Dutch citizens go on strike. We had no public transport (trains, busses) for 24 hours in the whole country! This has nothing to do with Iraq though, but with other issues Balkenende is pursuing with which the general public isnt very happy with. But yeah, the Netherlands has a habit of trying to be everyones best friend, or at least the government is. This can be quite annoying at times.

[Matt]

So heres what im thinking is gonna happen in the yanky elections: Bush will win because people are scared of change. And when that happens he'll start a whole new wave of shit world wide, all in the name of god and country, and guess who'll be following directly behind like the fools we are, why Australia of course.
:devil:

People aren't scared of change, they are scared of the unknown. Thanks to bush's campaign of fear. Every debate, every speach both cheney and bush remind amercians how unsafe they are and if kerry is elected how even more unsafe they will be. Bush's message: TERROR, DEATH, ATTACK, TERROR, DEATH, and don't forget TERROR.

Bush treats the american public like a pavlov dog experiment... sept 11 evokes fear.. what does sept 11th envoke? Fear. Keep repeating the word Terror until people make the connection. Then remove Sept 11.. people hear Terror and make the conditioned response.. Fear. Same with Saddam and Terror. Al-qeada relates to Terror .. relate Saddam to Al-qeada via repetition.. stop saying al-qeada.. saddam is now assoicited to terror. Since he has already conditioned the Terror Fear connection.. now Saddam = Fear. Classic conditioning.

I hope the americans see through all the BS. I hope they listen to the issues, not about what the mass media spits out (gay daughters, rich wives, etc).

ps - for a prime example.. check out this gem http://home.earthlink.net/~houval/gopconstrm.mov

[madjo]

People aren't scared of change, they are scared of the unknown. Thanks to bush's campaign of fear. Every debate, every speach both cheney and bush remind amercians how unsafe they are and if kerry is elected how even more unsafe they will be. Bush's message: TERROR, DEATH, ATTACK, TERROR, DEATH, and don't forget TERROR.

You mean "Terr" (Bush seems to be unable to pronunciate it properly ;) )

http://home.earthlink.net/~houval/gopconstrm.mov
indeed good example :) (nice movie)

[rorythedog]

I don't agree with everything on this site (http://www.infowars.com/) , but if only a fraction of this stuff is true...we're f****d!

[Roj]

People aren't scared of change, they are scared of the unknown. Thanks to bush's campaign of fear. Every debate, every speach both cheney and bush remind amercians how unsafe they are and if kerry is elected how even more unsafe they will be. Bush's message: TERROR, DEATH, ATTACK, TERROR, DEATH, and don't forget TERROR. Point blank:

America only has itself to thank for the misfortune it has been subjected to.

If it:

1) Stayed the hell out of other people's business

2) Didn't throw up puppet governments it thought it could control (and which it inevitably loses control of, time and time again) in the name of so-called "democracy" (which in itself is and always was a myth)

3) Didn't play political games and switch the sides it's supporting at a moment's notice just because of potential economic gain

4) Took a more compromising and tolerant view of its neighbours on the planet instead of exuding overweening arrogance

...then it wouldn't have the problems it has now, nor would it be left standing ALONE on the world scene.

The bully is generally left alone in the schoolyard.

America, 911 was thirty years of your foreign policy coming back to bite you in the ass. Now you have an unscrupulous political opportunist exploiting the fear created by those thirty years of misjudgement for his own ends. His opponent is a protectionist who would isolate you even more by "circling the wagons", pioneer-style.

If you don't learn from this really quickly, you're screwed.

Which means you're screwed.

[plover]

A recent New York Times featured a piece by Ron Suskind (the guy who wrote the book about Paul O'Neill's experience with the Bushies): "Without a Doubt (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?oref=login&pagewanted=all&position=)". It talks about the amazing lack of connection to reality of Bush and those who speak for the administration, and how American Fundamentalists feel that "God gave us this president to be the man to protect the nation at this time". I find it all rather sickening.
[From "Without a Doubt"]
Each administration, over the course of a term, is steadily shaped by its president, by his character, personality and priorities. It is a process that unfolds on many levels. There are, of course, a chief executive's policies, which are executed by a staff and attending bureaucracies. But a few months along, officials, top to bottom, will also start to adopt the boss's phraseology, his presumptions, his rhythms.

[...]

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

Another good article is this analysis of the total lack of post-war planning for Iraq (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9927782.htm).

One thing that makes this so horrible is that a lot of this was well known at the time U.S. troops were deployed, especially the bits about the Pentagon living in Ahmad Chalabi's fantasy world. The overall shape of the mess that would follow if the administration's soi disant invasion plan was used was quite accurately predicted both by external critics and people inside military and intelligence planning circles.

In the end, arguments about whether invading Iraq was a good idea or not are moot. The inadequacy of the pre-war planning was so evident—even before operations started—that, given that this was an elective war, the reason for going is more or less irrelevant. If the goal was worth pursuing, as the administration's supporters aver, it was worth doing with a thorough plan that the strategists could support and the field commanders could have faith in at all stages. Anything else is at best rank incompetence, at worst an utter betrayal of public trust, and in all cases holds the lives of U.S. and coalition soldiers cheaply.

At least the British forces brought enough common sense with them to stop the areas they've been overseeing from descending into the same degree of chaos as the American occupied areas. Of course, now it looks like Bush is trying to drag the British troops into the messier parts of the country for his own political gain.

[Roj]

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''Did I mention utterly overweening arrogance?

There are few things as chilling as an Uzi with the safety off in the hands of a petulant three year old, be it a child or the individual(s) tasked with the leadership of a country...

[Sheepeh]

Something to think about... (http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1627&NEXTID=0&PREVID=1629&DISPLAYORDER=20041006140828&CAT=movies&NSFW)

[rorythedog]

Well the wife and I have just sat and watched "Fahrenheit 9/11". Whatever anyone might think about Michael Moore's politics, this is a sad indictment of the US Government. And by definition, the US citizenry.

I just hope everyone out there in QCD land, who has a vote next week, uses it wisely. And if, and when, Bush is ousted, I hope the people of the USA prosecute him and all his cronies to the fullest extent of the law.

[rorythedog]

Shit! Looks like it's time to start building that shelter. WAKE UP OHIO!

[Roj]

Shit! Looks like it's time to start building that shelter. WAKE UP OHIO!
While I'm not sanguine about having Porky Pig in charge of the world's biggest nuclear arsenal, Kerry is no less useless a choice.

I wonder if anyone remembers the maxim that assasination is a valid tool of statecraft...

By the way mate, I'm not ignoring your e-mail. I tried to reply and it bounced. Likely my fault. I'm a bit pressed for time these days but we will continue that discussion on smoking guns.

[Todd The Kiwi]

smoking guns
you guys shouldn't be smoking those :carrot:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Bush has won the election. Damn. See here: cnn news (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/03/election.main/index.html)

This calls for a cartoon:

http://nearingzero.net/natural/screenres/natural074.jpg

[matty28carter]

well i guess its another 4 years of bushie...

[rorythedog]

you guys shouldn't be smoking those :carrot:

Bloody hell, collared again. Actually, I'm all out of smoking guns. I inadvertantly formatted the HD with all that stuff on it. And about 11,000 tracks. Nevermind, it makes no difference anyway, apparently. Rumsfeld's gonna kill us all.

Roj, I know what you're saying about Kerry, but you should see how this is being greeted in Europe. It's not good. The only up side might be that this gives them the rope to finally hang themselves. But how many ordinary folks will be sacrificed first.

On TV, I saw a woman (US) saying how Bush is the man to protect America from "terrorists" and how this is evidenced by the lack of any terrorist activity since 11/9!! Is this opinion for real? Who was in charge on 11/9? Actually, that's a good question.

There would seem to be a disproportionate amount of dipshits in the US.

Previously I have always given the benefit of the doubt to US citizens. i.e. It's not the average Joes fault, rather it is the fault of their unelected dictatorship. Not anymore. It was a "relatively" fair vote. "You reap what you sow".

Unfortunately, this is probably the way it's seen by people far more dangerous than me. This has been a very sad day. I fear it will be remembered for a long time.

[chicubs]

Well the wife and I have just sat and watched "Fahrenheit 9/11". Whatever anyone might think about Michael Moore's politics, this is a sad indictment of the US Government. And by definition, the US citizenry.

I just hope everyone out there in QCD land, who has a vote next week, uses it wisely. And if, and when, Bush is ousted, I hope the people of the USA prosecute him and all his cronies to the fullest extent of the law.

you cant bust a president for going to war that congress approved:puzzled:

[chicubs]

Bloody hell, collared again. Actually, I'm all out of smoking guns. I inadvertantly formatted the HD with all that stuff on it. And about 11,000 tracks. Nevermind, it makes no difference anyway, apparently. Rumsfeld's gonna kill us all.

Roj, I know what you're saying about Kerry, but you should see how this is being greeted in Europe. It's not good. The only up side might be that this gives them the rope to finally hang themselves. But how many ordinary folks will be sacrificed first.

On TV, I saw a woman (US) saying how Bush is the man to protect America from "terrorists" and how this is evidenced by the lack of any terrorist activity since 11/9!! Is this opinion for real? Who was in charge on 11/9? Actually, that's a good question.

There would seem to be a disproportionate amount of dipshits in the US.

Previously I have always given the benefit of the doubt to US citizens. i.e. It's not the average Joes fault, rather it is the fault of their unelected dictatorship. Not anymore. It was a "relatively" fair vote. "You reap what you sow".

Unfortunately, this is probably the way it's seen by people far more dangerous than me. This has been a very sad day. I fear it will be remembered for a long time.

there are a lot of scottish dipshits too.

[Roj]

there are a lot of scottish dipshits too.
Yes, but they didn't elect Porky Pig to sit on top of the worlds largest bully force, er, nuclear arsenal.

[chicubs]

Yes, but they didn't elect Porky Pig to sit on top of the worlds largest bully force, er, nuclear arsenal.

I dont know...he doesnt look like Porky Pig and he is not fat. he's a little bit stupid, though....hes not going to nuke anyone, lets be just a little bit realistic.

[chicubs]

Point blank:

America only has itself to thank for the misfortune it has been subjected to.

If it:

1) Stayed the hell out of other people's business

2) Didn't throw up puppet governments it thought it could control (and which it inevitably loses control of, time and time again) in the name of so-called "democracy" (which in itself is and always was a myth)

3) Didn't play political games and switch the sides it's supporting at a moment's notice just because of potential economic gain

4) Took a more compromising and tolerant view of its neighbours on the planet instead of exuding overweening arrogance

...then it wouldn't have the problems it has now, nor would it be left standing ALONE on the world scene.

The bully is generally left alone in the schoolyard.

America, 911 was thirty years of your foreign policy coming back to bite you in the ass. Now you have an unscrupulous political opportunist exploiting the fear created by those thirty years of misjudgement for his own ends. His opponent is a protectionist who would isolate you even more by "circling the wagons", pioneer-style.

If you don't learn from this really quickly, you're screwed.

Which means you're screwed.

shut up! you guys all piss me off..."Americans are idiots" "Bush is the devil" "Americans love killing people" "9/11 was your own fault" "Europe is awesome and perfectly angelic" "Bin laden showed them!" ,etc ,etc

I live in europe pre 9/11...pre iraq obviously and i had the displeasure of being raised in the Netherlands. I was as shit by the dutch...an american boy was slapped by a random stranger because the man heard him speaking english. my english-speaking muslim friend and I were berated by some dutch geezer for no reason because we were foreign. My friends house was stone...dutch kids threw stones at me because I spoke only english at the time.

ill probably get banned or suspended or something, but, meh, im sick of the constant ripping by people who have no right to....Is Bush good? Hell no. but some of the stuff you guys say is just plain bs....not to mention you guys cant ever see the other side of a story.

[rorythedog]

You're right about dipshits in Scotland. No arguments there. I've voted for the last 21 years in Scotland, and not once has my vote counted. Not once. We get the same crap every four years too. It's either Tories or Labour, every time. And, despite their electoral pledges, we get the same policies every four years. Just dressed up in new clothes. You see, I know how impotent you might feel.

However, my country (Scotland) does not possess the worlds' largest ammunition stockpile. And more to the point, we are not running around the world threatening people when we don't like the way they do business. And I do mean business. That's what you're country was founded on. You're large corporations just can't get enough. These companies are going to benefit in Iraq. Not you, certainly not the Iraqis.

I'm sorry if you're offended. I didn't mean to get at anyone in particular. I'm just frustrated. I like to travel, and I'd quite like to go to the Middle East before I die. But it's not looking good, is it?

For the last three or four days our news screens have been filled with the long queues outside polling stations. Much longer than any other election before this. Foolishly, I assumed this was all the previously disenfranchised voters coming out to finally have a say. To tell the government that they'd had enough of this war. That no more Iraqis, Americans and Scots (aye, we're in it too) should die in the name of corporate greed.

But it's not to be. It seems all those extra voters were in fact saying "Hell yeah, bring it on!" And unfortunately, that's exactly what will happen. Violence begets violence.

Finally, we do have every right to speak about US affairs. You're country is too powerful for us to not have an opinion. Your country is marching around the world with size 10 Docs on. That pisses people off. Surprised?

[Todd The Kiwi]

shut up! you guys all piss me off
ha ha nice to see you back mate ;)
where have you been?
I'd quite like to go to the Middle East before I die
two birds with one stone...? :cheeky:

[jkrzok]

I'm thinking Chicubs is actually Karl Rove. Now that he has free time he reappears in the forums.

As an American I find it hard to express just how scary disappointing frustrating this result is. You foreigners think you have it bad? I have to live with this fool every day. Just today a friend of mine found out that her job will no longer be eligible for overtime, thanks to the changes in overtime regulations Bushie put through this last summer. This will cost her some $10,000 a year. Not a lot to a Bushie, but for a working class mother of 2 it is devastating.

And now Bushie thinks he has a mandate! How will he be controlled? Permanent tax cuts favoring the rich that result in a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the already all too wealthy? The only President to have NEVER vetoed a spending bill? Where will the deficit be in 4 years? A chance to possibly appoint 4 Supreme Court Justices? I can see this country becoming a socially conservative backwater ruled by fundamentalists of a Christian stripe. How they differ from Islamic fundamentalists isn't immediately clear. I see two groups trying to impose their will on me and I think they're both wrong. Christian fundamentalists have te power here in the US so they can call their acts of violence "war" and cover it in a cloak of legitimacy. But the end result is the same. Innocents die. And as an American I am somehow responsble for this.

The only positive I see in this is that now Bushie has to clean up his own mess in Iraq. If he can. Perhaps he should start a war elsewhere to distract us from Iraq.

In high school I had a history teacher that said the US was strong enough to survive any Fools four year Presidency. He never talked about an eight year term.

My mind is reeling.

[Roj]

I dont know...he doesnt look like Porky Pig and he is not fat. he's a little bit stupid, though....hes not going to nuke anyone, lets be just a little bit realistic.
"ehhhhhhh-ba-dee-ah-ba-dee-ah-ba-dee-ah-ba-dee-ah-ba-dee-ah-TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!"

(typical Bush delivery tripping over the words on the teleprompter)

[Roj]

shut up! you guys all piss me off..."Americans are idiots" "Bush is the devil" "Americans love killing people" "9/11 was your own fault" "Europe is awesome and perfectly angelic" "Bin laden showed them!" ,etc ,etcUmmm, I never said Americans are idiots although their electoral record lately doesn't exactly contradict that statement.

I never said Bush is the devil - although some of my countrymen could be forgiven for calling him "moron".

I have never and will never intimate that Americans as a rule love killing people.

I have said and will stand by the statement that 9/11 was America's fault in the sense that you reap what you sow. The rather obvious and public record of that country's foreign policy over the last thirty years is impossible to ignore or whitewash.

I live in europe pre 9/11...pre iraq obviously and i had the displeasure of being raised in the Netherlands. I was as shit by the dutch...an american boy was slapped by a random stranger because the man heard him speaking english. my english-speaking muslim friend and I were berated by some dutch geezer for no reason because we were foreign. My friends house was stone...dutch kids threw stones at me because I spoke only english at the time.Hey, assholes are all over the planet. Try visiting Quebec sometime and speaking English. I am sorry that you experienced what you did but it by no means is unique and not necessarily because of your nationality. I myself have been called "bush nigger" in your country and have been threatened because some good ol' boys didn't want no island boy takin' after their wimmin. I got over it. :)

ill probably get banned or suspended or something, but, meh, im sick of the constant ripping by people who have no right toNot by me, you won't. The only person I've seen here in recent memory that should be banned, now is. You have a right to your opinion just like anyone else.

As to rights, did anyone ask the Grenadians, the Panamanians, the Chileans, the Philipinos or the Iraquis and Iranians about theirs?

....Is Bush good? Hell no. but some of the stuff you guys say is just plain bs....not to mention you guys cant ever see the other side of a story.A man gets into the Oval Office by obviously fraudulent means, has no inkling how to conduct domestic policy (I'll get back to this), ignores the warnings by the reputable intelligence community (no, not the FBI or CIA - I said "reputable") about an impending threat to national security and then proceeds to invade a country for largely economic reasons (not to mention to take the electorate's mind off the aforementioned lame duck domestic policy) under the guise of a response to said threat, emasculates the rights and freedoms of his own people by creating a Department of Homeland Security with sweepoing powers to abridge the rights specified in the Constitution of the country whose freedoms he has sworn to uphold and there is supposed to be another side ot the story?

That's gotta be some tale.

[Roj]

Someone raised the question to me privately as to how I could be referred to as "bush nigger" when I obviously appear caucasian.

He'res the simplified answer: :)

I'm Jamaican, now a Canadian citizen. My grandmother was black. I am quite obviously caucasian in appearance. I had and continue to have a strong Jamaican accent. When I was going to school in Florida, I had the accent, an afro and a rather deep tan. :) Since I was from the islands, it didn't matter if I appeared caucasian or not - to the Southern rednecks (this does not imply that all Southerers are rednecks, btw) I was a "bush nigger".

Funny how prejudice works, eh? Sometimes it doesn't even matter what color your skin is when the perception is otherwise.

[jkrzok]

The rather obvious and public record of that country's foreign policy over the last thirty years is impossible to ignore or whitewash.

You're right about our foreign policy finally biting back. I don't agree with your time line however. It goes back to at least WW2 and in my mind goes back to the Spanish-American War. Thirty years is just too short. The Iranian hostage crisis started twenty five years ago this week and that follows the impostion of the Shah on Iran in 1953.

Can countries have karma?

[rorythedog]

Chicubs. I would not like to see you banned. I do believe in Freedom of Speech.

On a lighter note - type "weapons of mass destruction" into Google and have a look at the first result. :carrot:

[Todd The Kiwi]

I had the accent, an afro and a rather deep tan
start funk music > strut here...and here...and here... > stop funk music ;)
we really need a fro-icon >continue funk music... :carrot:
man, i have to say headphones and decent hair don't mix at all




(this is intended in jest)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

...and i had the displeasure of being raised in the Netherlands. I was as shit by the dutch...an american boy was slapped by a random stranger because the man heard him speaking english. my english-speaking muslim friend and I were berated by some dutch geezer for no reason because we were foreign. My friends house was stone...dutch kids threw stones at me because I spoke only english at the time...

I dont know where you lived in the Netherlands but this is NOT what we are. In fact, i recently met an American who seriously loved living in the Netherlands and wouldnt go back to America for nothing because Bush is screwing up the country. We have our share of internal conflicts against immigrants, but not against westerners. Individual religious persons who think they can just shoot someone dead because the dutch guy said something that offended his religion happen rarely. Unfortunately it has just happened again (see thread about freedom of speech). These incidents are unique for us, unlike in America where it is not unusual for this to happen. You must have been seriously unfortunate is all i can say.

I agree with jkrzok that the US is going to be even more conservative that it already is. This prospect is not greatly appealing to me or Europe for that matter.

[ianjohnson_nz]

I dont know...he doesnt look like Porky Pig and he is not fat. he's a little bit stupid, though....hes not going to nuke anyone, lets be just a little bit realistic.

So why have nukes in the first place?

Well I started this topic & I don't feel any better now than before. You are right, I do find it difficult to see the other point of view. I've done my best to understand why anyone would vote for Bush (on balance), but I can't. It's ridiculous to suggest the world is a safer place since 9/11/; a primary issue for me (nevermind a myriad other reasons).

Hopefully all the recent rhetoric about rebuilding old friendships (France, Germany, et al) might actually get somewhere if Bush is sincere about his intent on unity. Even Porky Pig might fly eh?

[Roj]

start funk music > strut here...and here...and here... > stop funk music ;)
we really need a fro-icon >continue funk music... :carrot:
man, i have to say headphones and decent hair don't mix at all




(this is intended in jest)All pictures of me with an afro have been BURNED. :)

As to cans, my portable MP3 player is one of the primary reasons my hair is so short. SportaPros do create "headphone hair" by the time I reach the office.

[Roj]

You're right about our foreign policy finally biting back. I don't agree with your time line however. It goes back to at least WW2 and in my mind goes back to the Spanish-American War. Thirty years is just too short. The Iranian hostage crisis started twenty five years ago this week and that follows the impostion of the Shah on Iran in 1953.

Can countries have karma?
I stand corrected on the timeline and EVERYTHING is subject to karma. :)