Life on mars?

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Woah, when i was surfing on www.slashdot.com I came across this article on life on mars. Some believers are right now totally freaking out because it seems that in a photograph of NASA, there is this little object of a couple by a couple pixels large that kinda resembles a crab or something living. :evolved: They also cross-checked with other photographs and these people couldn't find it in those or that it seems to be located elsewhere. So they say it is a living entity that has moved! :D. Here is the link to the official homepage that goes on about this crab-like creature on mars:

http://www.martiancrabs.com

See for yourselves, but it hasn't convinced me :cyclops:

Due to the thin marsian atmosphere I firmly believe that no life can exist on mars. Im not saying of course that never life existed on mars, because it may well be possible, only that everything died about 4 billion years ago ;)

p.s. check my new wallpaper "QCD on mars"
QCD on mars (http://www.quinnware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8006#post8006)

[Paul]

Due to the thin marsian atmosphere I firmly believe that no life can exist on mars
I believe that life is almost guarateed on Mars, if not in every inch of the Universe. It's just that Humans are very narrow minded and short-sighted that we only go looking for life as it exists on Earth, and that all life must be protein/carbon/oxygen based group of complex cellular structures. If NASA finds it's earth-like life on Mars, super!, I'd be jumping in the air and only surprised that it was earth-like. However, since they aren't looking for other forms of life (or even know how?), then they will probably conclude that none exists and we are alone and ever so special (in the Bible sort of way).

However, that crab thing rawks. It almost proves that there is a green plant-filled cavern underground on Mars (all 'Wrath of Kahn' like!).

[Heigar]

With how vast the universe is how can people think that there is no other type or form of life out there.Like you said Paul if people would look past life on earth then they would open a whole new door of what might be out there and literally be surprised of what they might find.At one point I believe that there was life on mars and with the crab there might still be ,just because the Martian atmoshpere is "said " to be uninhabitable ,doesn't mean that things aren't lerking under the surface.Great topic the planets and the universe have always interested me.:)

[blackspawn]

humm... it's probably just a rock or so "they" say


The picture in question is still available at Nasa's excellent "Astronomy Picture of the Day" archive http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040204.html (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040204.html) .

I believe the object is a Martian fulgurite. A fulgurite is made from sand fused into glass by a lightning strike. They have a characteristic branching shape reminiscent of the object in the photo. http://www.amnh.org/learn/musings/SP01/mb.htm (http://www.amnh.org/learn/musings/SP01/mb.htm) is an good explanation of Earthly fulgurites. http://www.menzelphoto.com/gallery/big/lightning6.htm (http://www.menzelphoto.com/gallery/big/lightning6.htm) is a very nice photograph of fulgurite from Arizona.

Even though the Martian atmosphere is only about 1% as dense as the Earth's, Martian dust storms are thought to put enough statically charged particles into the air to cause Martian lightning. High voltage Martian Lightning is described here: http://mars.astrobio.net/news/print.php?sid=50 (http://mars.astrobio.net/news/print.php?sid=50) .

Nasa should use this Opportunity to investigate the object and publish its findings.

Thank you for creating such an informative and entertaining web site that constantly explores that fractal boundary between knowledge and speculation.

Sincerely,

David Maynard
Speculative ExoBioInformaticist

[ace2701]

I checked the link, looked at the picture, and couldn't see a thing.:( It was so dark on my screen,the "sandcrab" could be almost anything. Anyone have a brighter copy of that image?

[Hanzo]

I don't doubt there's some sort of life in Mars or in the universe as well. But that thing does not look like a crab or anything excepcional for me. It surely is just an odd shaped rock.

Who knows... I might be wrong.:ninja:

[Heigar]

I don't doubt there's some sort of life in Mars or in the universe as well. But that thing does not look like a crab or anything excepcional for me. It surely is just an odd shaped rock.

Who knows... I might be wrong.:ninja:
I didn't think it looked like a crab either ,but who's to say that all crabs are to look like what we have on earth,it could have been just a rock ,but they say it moved ,but that could have been because of the way the picture was taken.would be really interesting to see what that thing really was.If it was a crab of some sort wonderful it was only a rock what a bummer.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Here is an image of the thing.

People say that it could be a a piece of the airbag system as well, who knows?

[Heigar]

Here is an image of the thing.

People say that it could be a a piece of the airbag system as well, who knows?Ha Ha I don't think anybody will ever know,one big mystery now.But it doesn't look like a rock that's for sure.

[tupperduck]

A couple things occurred to me when looking at the picture.

1) There is no sense of scale. As such, it might be a GIANT Martian sand crab.

2) If you download the full picture from NASA and scroll right from the first (potentially giant) Martian sand crab, there is a second thing similar in appearance. We may be faced with a *horde* of giant Martian sand crabs.

I, for one, won't be able to sleep at night.

(I've attached two files. I cropped out the first and second Martian sand crabs from the photo. They haven't been manipulated in any way.)

[blackspawn]

A couple things occurred to me when looking at the picture.

1) There is no sense of scale. As such, it might be a GIANT Martian sand crab.

2) If you download the full picture from NASA and scroll right from the first (potentially giant) Martian sand crab, there is a second thing similar in appearance. We may be faced with a *horde* of giant Martian sand crabs.

I, for one, won't be able to sleep at night.:shocked: ok now you made me worry... WERE ALL GOING TO DIE!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Cmon guys, y'all dont actually believe this, i hope. Mars is a dead planet, and i know because i happen to study geology. There is so much more happening on Earth, geochemical cycles for one, like the carbon/nitrogen cycle, or plate tectonics of course (which includes volcanism). Don't get me wrong, but if there was really life then at least there should be more of an atmosphere than just some CO2. So, the thing cannot be a living entity, mars is :skull:

Am I making sense here, or is no one familiar with geology/geochemistry?

[Qaz]

I've allways thought there's life somewhere outside Earth. Never really thought that it would exist in our solar system, but I've got to admit, that picture doesn't seem to have rock or anything like that. To RMI, not even all species on Earth need oxygen to survive, so why there wouldn't be species living with CO2.

[tupperduck]

Don't worry, Rex. I, for one, am just funnin'. I don't actually think there is life on Mars.

Still, if we ARE invaded by hordes of giant, Martian sand crabs, I will do my part to defend the Earth with a pot of boiling water, shell hammer, butter and a bib.

Mmmm... Martian sand crab. *tasty* ;)

[Heigar]

I am a little familiar with the study of geology ,and that is were most people get stuck with life on other planets ,because the study of geology on earth only limits you to earth ,no one can really say for sure that life on another planet can not be just for the sake of the planet does not have earth like qualities,even if there was or is life on mars I think that nobody would know how to look for it anyway without looking past the way the earth and living things are made up of.

Good point Qaz:"not all species on earth need oxygen to survive"


I'm just keeping an opened mind,because if I closed it then it wouldn't be any fun to wonder what is out there.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

... not even all species on Earth need oxygen to survive, so why there wouldn't be species living with CO2.

It's not about whether there is oxygen or not (which there isn't and on which an entire ecosystem is build on) but that the little amounts of CO2 present can never sustain even anoxic creatures which ultimately will have to be bacteria and nothing bigger, for obvious reasons. If there were something bigger, like that "crab" on the photo, it would need huge antennae and i mean huge, to take in the little CO2 available in the atmosphere. PLUS, it needs to be able to photosynthesise (ie use the sun as a source for energy). There is just no other way it could obtain energy to live. Considering these facts and many others which i dont want to carry on to explain right now, there really, really cannot exist life on mars at this time. However, im confident that perhaps in the past, around 4 billions years ago, some primordial life could have existed (like bacteria or unicellular eukaryotes) before the planet lost its atmosphere and turned cold.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

I'm just keeping an opened mind,because if I closed it then it wouldn't be any fun to wonder what is out there.

And Heigar, its all right to keep an open mind. In fact, i'm sure that life on Earth is non-unique. Nothing is a co-incidence. And regarding the fact that there are billions of other solar systems with "terrestrial" planets, life is out there. However, did you know that research has found out that the earth without the moon would make it uninhabitable. Or that if the earth's orbit would just be slightly larger, life as we know it could never exist? These are not my words, you can do a google search and you'll probably find these statements.

Anyway, saying there is no life on mars, is not what i consider a close-minded statement. You get my point?

[Hanzo]

Being the universe as huge as it is, don't you think that out somewhere, there must be some life-form that does not depend on oxygen? I mean, billions of planets have other non-oxygen atmospheric systems and I would guess that some life-form can depend on other gases as well.

I wouldn't even make a guess on the type of gases that can sustain life, but is just my opinion.

[Paul]

I wouldn't even make a guess on the type of gases that can sustain life, but is just my opinion.
The environment doesn't sustain life, life adapts to the environment.

The corollary of that is: life is everywhere.

[Hanzo]

The environment doesn't sustain life, life adapts to the environment.

The corollary of that is: life is everywhere.
Well said ! :cheerful:

[hedge]

The environment doesn't sustain life, life adapts to the environment.

The corollary of that is: life is everywhere.
But life must first start to exist, and for that to happen there must still be the basic life support system in place... but imagine how many planets have this basic life support system in place... and how differently these basic forms of life have mutated over the millenia... anything could exist!!! :evolved:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Being the universe as huge as it is, don't you think that out somewhere, there must be some life-form that does not depend on oxygen? I mean, billions of planets have other non-oxygen atmospheric systems and I would guess that some life-form can depend on other gases as well.

I wouldn't even make a guess on the type of gases that can sustain life, but is just my opinion.

Sure there are life forms that dont depend on oxygen, but it could only be photosynethesising bacteria. That's how Earth got its oxygen in the atmosphere in the first place at about 3.8 billion years ago. Photosynthesis is a process in which the organism uses the energy of the sun and CO2 to produce glucose (ie organic matter) and oxygen. Decay of organic matter is the reverse process. But it's no surprise that oxygen is so abundant and so vital. It has many valence states, which means it readily bonds with any other atom to form molecules. These molecules are then used by organisms. No, really if you are referring to life other than bacteria, then you need oxygen, there is no escape. :gasmask:

btw, did you know that most bacteria when placed in an oxic environment, they die? Early in Earth's history they thrived because of the anoxic conditions producing oxygen. Then some mutation took place called cell endosymbiosis and the eukaryotes were formed (which is anything other than bacteria officially called prokaryotes). These early eukaryotes instead consumed oxygen and therefore their metabolic rate was increased with great efficiency. The bacteria, having created an oxic environment, could not outmatch the onset of the eukaryotes. The latter evolved into us. We are eukaryotes, or multicellular organisms. :D

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

lol, im really enjoying this discussion, i hope you guys are too :silly:

[hedge]

lol, im really enjoying this discussion, i hope you guys are too :silly:
Sounds like you are too!!! I'm glad i did biology last year, otherwise all that would've flown over my head!!!

[plover]

For speculation on marvellously odd forms of life (with good physical/mathematical backing) I suggest the work of Greg Egan, notably "Wang's Carpets", "Luminous", and Schild's Ladder. Though be warned, a lot of Egan's fiction is not for the scientifically faint of heart.

http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/cyclops.gif http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/evolved.gif http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/cyclops.gif http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/evolved.gif http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/cyclops.gif http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/evolved.gif http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/cyclops.gif

In general, I would say life requires some kind of building blocks that can be organized in a suitably complex and flexible fashion, and a source of energy that drives what ever transformative process provides this complexly organized agglomeration with enough dynamism to be called life.

This generalized form could be called a set of necessary conditions for life. The trick is then to define "complex", "flexible", and "dynamism" with enough specificity to show the sufficient conditions for life.

Carbon chemistry is, at this point in the lifetime of the universe, one of the most readily available sources of complexity on a rocky planet, and liquid water provides a particularly good medium for dynamic chemical processes. The example of the Earth seems to indicate that if you have a large quantity of methane, ammonia, and water at a suitable temperature, and if you dissolve in a few heavier elements and, run enough lightning through this setup for long enough, you'll end up with a messy enough chemical soup to generate life. This is the only model for producing life that we have particularly good reasons to believe works.

The minimal idea of what's necessary to produce life is quite general however, and the number of possible localized systems that humans have any detailed model for is very small. Mathematics shows that complexity can be produced using very small numbers of building blocks. So placing limits on systems that might produce life should be done with care.

Paul:
I'm curious as to what definition of life you are using for your statements. What is the difference between what you are saying and a mystical "Life Is In Everything" pantheistic kind of thing (which I get the impression is not what you're aiming at).

[Paul]

I'm curious as to what definition of life you are using for your statements. What is the difference between what you are saying and a mystical "Life Is In Everything" pantheistic kind of thing (which I get the impression is not what you're aiming at).
I'm definitely not pantheistic, and am not saying life is 'in' everything. I mean, a rock is a rock and it couldn't be more lifeless. Life is a demonstration of consiousness.

[Hanzo]

Still, I think that out somewhere, there must be a multicellular life form that does not depend on oxygen. Why the life on other planets should follow the models that we find suitable for life existance?

I agree with Paul... life could adapt to any enviroment.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Still, I think that out somewhere, there must be a multicellular life form that does not depend on oxygen. Why the life on other planets should follow the models that we find suitable for life existance?

I agree with Paul... life could adapt to any enviroment.

You watch too many science fiction movies :D

(thats a joke, btw)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Hanzo, try to back up your arguement. Otherwise i'll never believe you ;)

btw how conscious is a bacteria?

[Qaz]

The crucian carp (Carassius carassius Linnaeus) Anoxia means total lack of oxygen, and the crucian carp is maybe the most anoxia tolerant vertebrate there is. This North European fish often inhabit shallow ponds which becomes ice covered in the winter. Therefore, the habitat of the crucian carp may become anoxic for several months every winter. Its extraordinary anoxia tolerance is clearly an adaptation to this extreme environment. In the laboratory, the crucian carp can survive several months of anoxia at temperatures close to 0 centigrade, and it readily endures a few days of anoxia at room temperature. For the crucian carp, the great advantage of being anoxia tolerant is that it becomes the sole piscine inhabitant of its ponds. It therefore has no predatory fish to worry about, with the exception of itself. The population density is very high in crucian carp ponds, and cannibalism is probably a common phenomenon.

Adaptation...

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Wow, thats cool! Too bad that it's a fish and requires water to survive and "Feeds on plants, insect larvae and plankton" ref (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=270&genusname=Carassius&speciesname=carassius)
And thus is part of an ecosystem, which is apparently lacking on mars ;)

God, am i being evil here :grimreape :evil:

[Paul]

Wow, thats cool! Too bad that it's a fish and requires water to survive and "Feeds on plants, insect larvae and plankton" ref (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=270&genusname=Carassius&speciesname=carassius)
And thus is part of an ecosystem, which is apparently lacking on mars ;)

God, am i being evil here :grimreape :evil:
CO2, silicon, minerals, sunlight, water are part of the martian ecosystem. Whatever life exists on mars would exist to exploit that ecosystem.

It seems you're basically arguing that 'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth' can't exist on mars - and you're right. But 'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth' doesn't say much about anything other than life on earth.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

CO2, silicon, minerals, sunlight, water are part of the martian ecosystem. Whatever life exists on mars would exist to exploit that ecosystem.

It seems you're basically arguing that 'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth' can't exist on mars - and you're right. But 'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth' doesn't say much about anything other than life on earth.

I'm sorry but the water is stored as ice and does not exist in liquid form and is therefore not available, except to bacteria perhaps.

The sunlight comes with ultraviolet rays harmful to life i.e. there is no ozone layer to protect any organisms (uv light destroys DNA).

No bacteria have been found thusfar exploiting the mineral availability, which is very difficult and limited. This is because mars undergoes very little physical erosion (only wind) and no chemical erosion to release those minerals from the host rock which would then be available to organisms.

CO2, there is just to little of it.

Btw, an ecosystem is made up from organisms interacting with each other in a biochemical cycle, ie the transfer of elements that are needed for life to exist such as O2, P, N2, K, Mg, Fe, Mn, H2, etc.

[Paul]

I'm sorry but the water is stored as ice and does not exist in liquid form and is therefore not available, except to bacteria perhaps.
'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth'
The sunlight comes with ultraviolet rays harmful to life (destroys DNA).
'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth'
No bacteria have been found thusfar exploiting the mineral availability, which is very difficult and limited. This is because mars undergoes very little physical erosion (only wind) and no chemical erosion to release those minerals from the host rock which would then be available to organisms.
'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth'
CO2, there is just to little of it.
'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth'
Btw, an ecosystem is made up from organisms interacting with each other in a biochemical cycle, ie the transfer of elements that are needed for life to exist such as O2, P, N2, K, Mg, Fe, Mn, H2, etc.
'life-as-we-know-it-on-earth'

This is the point I'm trying to get across to you.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

That statement ends this discussion i guess, but don't tell me that i'm narrow minded.

[Paul]

That statement ends this discussion i guess, but don't tell me that i'm narrow minded.
I wouldn't call you narrow minded. I did refer to 'narrow minded' in the way NASA is looking for life, but then again, how else could it look since we don't know about other biologies? However, it would be narrow minded if NASA came back with negative tests for life on mars and declared mars 'devoid of all life'.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

What do you think NASA should do then? I mean, they look at the geology on mars, take photographs, carry out all sorts of experiments using the latest technology available in order to find out what for minerals are present that might tell us whether there once was water. It's not their fault if no life is going to be found, or fossils for that matter. And if they find something, im sure they wont hold back any information or photos. I think it's great that they confirmed the existence of oxidised iron in the form of hematite, which confirms that there was once ago liquid water. Or that they discovered olivine, a mantle mineral, on the marsian surface, that tells us that there once really was volcanic activity on mars.

I'm sorry, i just want this discussion to be constructive :)

[Paul]

What do you think NASA should do then? I mean, they look at the geology on mars, take photographs, carry out all sorts of experiments using the latest technology available in order to find out what for minerals are present that might tell us whether there once was water. It's not their fault if no life is going to be found, or fossils for that matter. And if they find something, im sure they wont hold back any information or photos. I think it's great that they confirmed the existence of oxidised iron in the form of hematite, which confirms that there was once ago liquid water. Or that they discovered olivine, a mantle mineral, on the marsian surface, that tells us that there once really was volcanic activity on mars.

I'm sorry, i just want this discussion to be constructive :)
I hear you. I agree there is nothing more NASA could do, we don't know more about the makings of life other than what we've witnessed on earth. So we must resort to looking for 'earth-like' life on Mars, and can't expect anything more.

Perhaps I'm going overboard on the notion that life doesn't only exist in the forms we know on earth (on which we don't even know all the forms yet). But to me the notion that life is defined by certain chemical reactions, particular elements, and only under just the right circumstances is naive.

It's one thing to know how things work on earth, then look for those signs elsewhere (that is all a humble human could ask for). But it's inane hubris to declare that all life everywhere works the same way.

[tupperduck]

Seems I was wrong:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/opportunity/b19_20040304.html

We are not dealing with giant Martian sand crabs. We are dealing with miniature Martian bunnies! :carrot:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Oh my goodness, NASA atually wrote an article about it! Conclusion: it's light, it can be transported by even small winds, and it is probably a piece of the airbags. Nothing new here...

Btw, how on Earth could they rediscover the bunny under the north-facing egress ramp?? It just looks like a lighter patch of sand, really.

[tupperduck]

I think the Martian bunny hopped over to the Lander with the intention of hitching a ride back to Earth. (A little hot-wiring and voila, personal transport back to our glorious third planet from the sun.)

Perhaps even more disturbing... (from the NASA site)

'Johnson took the visual color clues a step further. He measured the visible light spectrum from the Pancam image of the "bunny ears" and compared it to the spectrum of a sample of airbag material. The nearly identical spectra are distinct from typical martian soil or rock spectra and lead Johnson to believe that the "bunny ears" are, indeed, a wayward piece of airbag material or something similar.'

They have stealth technology!

Photogenic, clever and stealthy... *shiver*

[Qaz]

lol :silly:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

lol :silly:

But if the two "antennae" are really ears, then where are its legs, mouth, eyes, and God knows what else :D.

Btw anyone seen bunny droppings yet?

[tupperduck]

I suspect, its legs are tucked under it and its mouth and eyes are closed.

This is, of course, worrisome. After all, WHY would it need to hide those things?

Probably because it has horrific claws, savage teeth, and malevolent glowing evil in its eyes. I am not ruling out the possibility that it can shoot deathrays from its eyes or exhale deadly vapors from its mouth. (After all, why IS Mars so barren? Hmm?)

:skull:Miniature Death Bunnies from Mars!:skull:

Our worst fears are realized...

[plover]

Hmm.... After reading this I'll just have to go listen to Mouse On Mars (http://www.mouseonmars.com)...

http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/cyclops.gif

(Hey maybe it's a martian mouse with big ears - Areomusus otohumongous)

[fatal error]

hmmm.....

[Zayoos]

Good one :)

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

rrrrrrrright. I don't get it. Looks convincing though, nicely done, they even speak english :D

[Qaz]

So this thread wouldn't turn entirely to a joke, take a look at this http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/opportunity_water.html

There's prove that there has been liquid water on Mars.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

That's right! I'm really exited by it :silly: I have already examined an outcrop for cross-bedding. You can see how i marked the "laminae" in the image below:

:cool:<MARS IS HEAVEN FOR GEOLOGISTS>:cool:

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Have a read on this website: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/8124461.htm

and enjoy ramblings such as "an outraged writer accused NASA of intentionally running over the bunny with the rover." :scared:

[plover]

enjoy ramblings such as "an outraged writer accused NASA of intentionally running over the bunny with the rover." Earth people explore another planet, and what's the first thing they do? Make roadkill!

Humans... can't live with 'em, can't toss 'em into a neutron star...
http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/cyclops.gif

There are also rumors that the Spirit rover now has a bumper sticker that reads "I http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/heart.gif Gusev", and that Opportunity has what looks suspiciously like an Orson Welles bobble-head attached to its upper surface...

[plover]

<MARS IS HEAVEN FOR GEOLOGISTS>
Apparently the term used for Mars is "areology" instead of "geology". (From Ares, Greek equivalent for the Roman god Mars)
http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/wink.gifhttp://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/coffee.gif

(Hey we need a Mars smiley to go with our http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/globe.gif ...)

[rsplitter]

Maybe there's life underground. Who knows what lies beneath all that desert? Also, this may sound like science-fiction, but what if there is life there, but in a different dimension to which we can't perceive. I'm not saying it's true (more impossible than possible), but not ruling out the possibility. But then this raises another topic, if the unperceivable dimension exists on Mars, then it must also exsist on Earth, right? :evolved:

[Heigar]

Maybe there's life underground. Who knows what lies beneath all that desert? Also, this may sound like science-fiction, but what if there is life there, but in a different dimension to which we can't perceive. I'm not saying it's true (more impossible than possible), but not ruling out the possibility. But then this raises another topic, if the unperceivable dimension exists on Mars, then it must also exsist on Earth, right? :evolved:
It doesn't necessarily mean that unperceivable dimension must also exist on earth,just because something could exist on a different planet does not mean that it has to on earth and vice versa.

[drewkeller]

It doesn't necessarily mean that unperceivable dimension must also exist on earth,just because something could exist on a different planet does not mean that it has to on earth and vice versa.
huh? i'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion
all of the dimensions i have reference to suggest that if something exists, it exists in all dimensions. it might not be on the same "plane" or in the same "location" as something else on a particular dimension (so you might not see it), but it still exists.

[Heigar]

huh? i'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion
all of the dimensions i have reference to suggest that if something exists, it exists in all dimensions. it might not be on the same "plane" or in the same "location" as something else on a particular dimension (so you might not see it), but it still exists.
true sorry my bad,wasn't thinking at that particular moment in time.

[traveller]

Just to refuel the debate, consider the bacteria that live around "black smokers" on the ocean floor. These "smokers", which are superheated, highly mineralized jets of water, support a rich ecosystem. The bottom of the food chain are bacteria which derive their nutrients by direct chemical conversion of sulphur, not by photosynthesis. Mars has had a volcanic history; who's to say there aren't similar non-photosynthesizing organisms forming the basis of the Martian food chain? In an infinite universe, anything is possible.

[drewkeller]

In an infinite universe, anything is possible.
at least within certain limits (the limits of that universe). to expand this idea ...
with an infinite God, anything is possible.

i read through the rest of this thread tonight. some interesting discussion.

as far as the Bible is concerned, it is meant as a message of God's love to earthlings/terrestrials, so it doesn't provide much of a scientific record of extraterrestrial life (outside the scope of the message, as it were). I wouldn't take that to mean that the Bible is narrow-minded (although some people who follow the Bible can be, just the same as anyone else can be). The Bible gives a few clues to at least two types of extraterrestrial life - God and angels. The reason why these are included is because they had some interaction with humans as part of history covered by the Bible.

i fully expect that there is life on other planets, in other solar systems, or dimensions. so far the discussion has been limited to this universe and our set of natural laws. i imagine there could be more universes and other sets of laws outside of ours.

so is a rock dead? our science tells us it doesn't contain biological life... but to continue on paul's idea, a rock is itself an environment, so it could contain life, right? maybe it is a type of life outside of our current scientific knowlegde.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

A solid rock is nothing more than a collection of minerals. You can't have life inside a rock. That's ridiculous. Soil, that's another matter ;)

I must say, the variation of minerals and their metamorphic history in a rock is most intruiging nevertheless :cool:

[krazyd]

The environment doesn't sustain life, life adapts to the environment.

The corollary of that is: life is everywhere.

Some thoughts from Douglas Adams ;) :
THE UNIVERSE:
4. Population

It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.


--The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[drewkeller]

A solid rock is nothing more than a collection of minerals. You can't have life inside a rock. That's ridiculous.
as far as our science can tell us, yes it is ridiculous. but our science is of limited knowledge, isn't it? first, we don't know all the scientific knowldege that there is to know. second, science can't explain things that are outside of the realm of science.

[Qaz]

Really great book about dimensions is Edwin Abbott's Flatland, A Romance in Many Dimensions. Just read it last week and it really gave new points of view.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

What is the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything? :cheerful:
And a more interesting question: How was the question to the answer to life, the universe and everything meant to be found? :D

Great book, the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy :cyclops:

[rsplitter]

What is the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything? :cheerful:
And a more interesting question: How was the question to the answer to life, the universe and everything meant to be found? :D

Great book, the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy :cyclops:
Don't how it turned out to be 6 x 7 = 42 (or something like that).

[plover]

Don't how it turned out to be 6 x 7 = 42 (or something like that).
The answer was definitely "42" but I think the question turned out to be:
"W H A T D O Y O U G E T W H E N Y O U M U L T I P L Y S I X B Y N I N E"
which ought to show just how much trust to place in cosmic questions generated by paleolithic Scrabble sets...http://beta.quinnware.com/forum/images/emots/evolved.gif

[rorythedog]

What is the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything? :cheerful:
And a more interesting question: How was the question to the answer to life, the universe and everything meant to be found? :D

Great book, the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy :cyclops:


If you look really hard on the net you'll find the original radio plays. Even better than the book, IMHO. Give it a try.

P.S. I'm back & I hate computers :paranoid:

[Zayoos]

Hey, look guys. They discover water on mars! :)
http://tinyurl.com/34n4c

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

Holy cow! Check out what lies in the crater Endurance! Not the average couple of blueberries but a whole crater filled with millions of 'em! Could these be eggs just waiting to hatch and take over the Earth? hahaha

link to picture (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040608a/06-SS-05-target-B133R1_br.jpg)

Here is some logical proof that these spherules were formed in rock on mars in a wet climate:
It is possible to form iron-rich spheres from the condensation of a volcanic cloud, or the debris from a meteor impact. But if either of those had been the case, the blueberries should have been deposited in clear layers, not all throughout the rock strata. Opportunity started drilling into the rock, and sure enough, no discrete layers of blueberries could be seen. In fact, the blueberries didn't seem to distort the layers of rock around them at all, and some of the blueberries even seemed to have lines going through them that matched the layers in the rock around them. They must have formed in the rock itself, and not been deposited later.
Then the evidence for water began to pour in. Other parts of the bedrock had penny-sized holes, where something had either dropped out of the rock or dissolved away. On Earth, such holes are usually caused by the growth of crystals, which subsequently dissolve away or drop out of the rock. After sniffing around the bedrock, Opportunity's instruments detected a substantial amount of jarosite, a mineral that forms in the presence of iron, sulfur and trapped water. And that was the smoking gun. There's really no way to make jarosite without water. Finally the scientists had no choice but to come to the conclusion that they had hoped for all along: the surface of Mars was once wet.
At the moment, Opportunity is about to amble over to another part of the bedrock, looking for evidence not only that the rock was exposed to water, but that it actually formed in it. Some preliminary images seem to show odd ripples and angles in the layers, as if the sediment was pushed around in flowing water, or maybe ancient waves on a Martian Ocean. After that, the rover will pull itself up out of the crater, and start rolling over the surrounding plane. source (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0319/p25s01-stss.html)

[DJ Shaji]

I discovered this thread only today. Man, this is an interesting debate here!

So getting to the point, first of all, somebody earlier mentioned that NASA has no reason not to tell us everything about life on mars. Actually they have. Just think what would happen if there is a news in the New York Times tommorrow stating that life has been discovered on mars. People can go nuts! There would be havoc all around. Think of all the confusion it will create. Remember MIB?

Also, I support what Paul has been trying to say all along. How can we possibly know what to expect? All we know is what we have seen and observed. What about the things which we haven't?

Remember, Life doesn't need water or soil or anything like that to begin it's magic. Life finds a way................................ :ponder:

[rorythedog]

I discovered this thread only today. Man, this is an interesting debate here!

So getting to the point, first of all, somebody earlier mentioned that NASA has no reason not to tell us everything about life on mars. Actually they have. Just think what would happen if there is a news in the New York Times tommorrow stating that life has been discovered on mars. People can go nuts! There would be havoc all around. Think of all the confusion it will create. Remember MIB?

Also, I support what Paul has been trying to say all along. How can we possibly know what to expect? All we know is what we have seen and observed. What about the things which we haven't?

Remember, Life doesn't need water or soil or anything like that to begin it's magic. Life finds a way................................ :ponder:

You're life might well be magic
;) , but I've just had a week in Butlin's and life looks pretty bleak from there.

Just think. If 'aliens' did visit here the whole world would suddenly realise that perhaps all nationalities and races are, in fact, the same. We could then all have a great big party just before starting a universal conflagration.

Of course the aliens would just kick our collective butt as they would obviously have to be technically far in advance of us just to visit us in the first place.

Butlin's is HELL :mad:
I'm glad to be back here :grin:
The :beer: 's are on me.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

So getting to the point, first of all, somebody earlier mentioned that NASA has no reason not to tell us everything about life on mars. Actually they have. Just think what would happen if there is a news in the New York Times tommorrow stating that life has been discovered on mars. People can go nuts! There would be havoc all around. Think of all the confusion it will create. Remember MIB?

I dont think people will get very frightened when some single celled bacteria are found on Mars ha ha ha :devil:

[Heigar]

I dont think people will get very frightened when some single celled bacteria are found on Mars ha ha ha :devil:
Rex you never know man,people react to small things in a big and overreacted way.

[hedge]

Rex you never know man,people react to small things in a big and overreacted way.
Heh, why do I hear 'Weapons of Mass Destruction', and think of the US when you say this...

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

OMG That's it! The US and NASA are holding back the evidence for life on mars. NASA is in a secret collaboration with the US army to give them insights on marsian bacterial life and how to make the perfect chemical weapon for which no man has any cure for and they are planning to bomb North Korea! :scared:

[DJ Shaji]

............the whole world would suddenly realise that perhaps all nationalities and races are, in fact, the same. We could then all have a great big party....................



If only they would........................

[DJ Shaji]

I dont think people will get very frightened when some single celled bacteria are found on Mars ha ha ha

How can you possibly know they're tiny little bacteria?

Look, I'm not a "sci-fi" freak, but we shouldn't just think that we're the only ones just because we can't find anybody else.

Also - a minor point - most people freak out when they see a "cockroach" in their very own bathrooms, let alone mars.

[Rex_Mundi_Incarnit]

How can you possibly know they're tiny little bacteria?

They (ie bacteria) should be, by far, the easiest to find just because they are so highly adaptive to extreme environments. ;) :skull: :devil: :gasmask: :cool:

ie if NASA ever does find evidence for life, or life itself on mars then we are most likely talking about bacteria. Its hardly possible to find multicellular organisms first without any trace for single-celled ones.